Is Orthodoxy the quickest path to atheism?

ArmyMatt · Jun 28, 2012

but that also does not deny a legit claim of Christianity to be the exclusive true religion. of course it does not prove it, one must know God, and He is the only one who can show you who He is. so I don't get the point of your post...?

you said Christians cannot make the claim to be the exclusively true faith. yes we can. we cannot say that we are the only faith who does this, but we can say that we are the only one that actually is. and while other faiths I am sure would also say this, that does not mean that they are correct (any more than it means we are). only God can reveal that to man.

truthseeker32 · Jul 2, 2012

I am not (yet) Orthodox, but I thought I would add my two cents since this is an issue I have encountered a few times in the past week.

My position may or may not be quite different from what is typical since my conversion to theism from a five year stint as an agnostic did not involve a specific religion, but rather an encounter with the philosophical arguments both for and against the existence of God. I read philosophers such as Hume, Russell, Nietzsche, and Dennet and in doing so became aware of the weaknesses in their arguments. I saw Hume's empiricism an extreme absurdity given the world in which we live. I didn't see it as reasonable to doubt what most assume are first principles. Nietzsche argued against the notion of objective morality only to replace the Judeo-Christian form with his own set of "oughts."

I then encountered Aristotle, Aquinas, and moderns like Coppleston, Pieper, Feser, and Plantinga and found their arguments to be more compelling.

Because I became a believer in God absent of a religious tradition, in the event that I decide Orthodoxy is not true I will still maintain my belief in God, since it does not rest on a religious institution.

Gxg (G²) · Jul 23, 2012

truthseeker32 said:
My position may or may not be quite different from what is typical since my conversion to theism from a five year stint as an agnostic did not involve a specific religion, but rather an encounter with the philosophical arguments both for and against the existence of God. I read philosophers such as Hume, Russell, Nietzsche, and Dennet and in doing so became aware of the weaknesses in their arguments. I saw Hume's empiricism an extreme absurdity given the world in which we live. I didn't see it as reasonable to doubt what most assume are first principles. Nietzsche argued against the notion of objective morality only to replace the Judeo-Christian form with his own set of "oughts."

It is interesting to see how many of the people you brought up sought to argue against the concept of God and yet their arguments didn't support their views consistently...with them doing the same thing they were arguing against.

ArmyMatt · Jul 23, 2012

Easy G (G²);61037818 said:
It is interesting to see how many of the people you brought up sought to argue against the concept of God and yet their arguments didn't support their views consistently...with them doing the same thing they were arguing against.

plus, a lot of them, like Neitzsche, actually show a desire for God, because of how hard they fought against Him, according to Fr Seraphim Rose. why fight so hard against someone or something that does not exist?

Gxg (G²) · Jul 24, 2012

ArmyMatt said:
plus, a lot of them, like Neitzsche, actually show a desire for God, because of how hard they fought against Him, according to Fr Seraphim Rose. why fight so hard against someone or something that does not exist?

Sometimes, it's so true that the people fighting the most are often the closet to coming to believe.

ArmyMatt · Jul 24, 2012

Easy G (G²);61046040 said:
Sometimes, it's so true that the people fighting the most are often the closet to coming to believe.

yeah, it reminds me of what CS Lewis said when he converted to Christ, that he realized he was heading face to face with the one Person he dreaded meeting.

Gxg (G²) · Jul 31, 2012

ArmyMatt said:
yeah, it reminds me of what CS Lewis said when he converted to Christ, that he realized he was heading face to face with the one Person he dreaded meeting.

That was such a powerful scene...

michaeldimmickjr · Nov 15, 2012

Orthodoxy is what God led me to when I had no faith. I was searching and God revealed the Orthodox Church to me. I was at my lowest. God has shown me great mercy and I can never deny that or choose anything else. I should be dead. God has spared me. Even though I struggle with living as a Christian in this secular society that cannot be held accountable by the Church because it is part of a temporary existence. I have to, no matter what, stay focused on the prize. This world is bent on destroying the image of God that is in every human being. That is the spirit of the times. Christianity is about humbling ourselves and being servants to our neighbors. It's hard to do that in a society that is focused on the opposite: self worship. Not only that, but we are strangers to each other. We're all wrapped up in our own interpretations of what this existence is about. We want to be like God. We want control. If we eat of the tree of knowledge, God is afraid we will be like Him. Has this changed since the creation of man? No. There is nothing new under the sun. The enemy still deceives us. And to be brutally honest, our beliefs don't change this fact. Just because we don't believe something to be true, doesn't mean that it isn't. We also have the capacity to deceive ourselves. That's a hard pill to swallow for all of us, including myself.

In Christ,

Michael

ArmyMatt · Nov 15, 2012

great testimony Michael!

Gxg (G²) · Dec 6, 2012

michaeldimmickjr said:
Orthodoxy is what God led me to when I had no faith. I was searching and God revealed the Orthodox Church to me. I was at my lowest. God has shown me great mercy and I can never deny that or choose anything else. I should be dead. God has spared me. Even though I struggle with living as a Christian in this secular society that cannot be held accountable by the Church because it is part of a temporary existence. I have to, no matter what, stay focused on the prize. This world is bent on destroying the image of God that is in every human being. That is the spirit of the times. Christianity is about humbling ourselves and being servants to our neighbors. It's hard to do that in a society that is focused on the opposite: self worship. Not only that, but we are strangers to each other. We're all wrapped up in our own interpretations of what this existence is about. We want to be like God. We want control. If we eat of the tree of knowledge, God is afraid we will be like Him. Has this changed since the creation of man? No. There is nothing new under the sun. The enemy still deceives us. And to be brutally honest, our beliefs don't change this fact. Just because we don't believe something to be true, doesn't mean that it isn't. We also have the capacity to deceive ourselves. That's a hard pill to swallow for all of us, including myself.

In Christ,

Michael

So true what you noted, as not believing something to be true doesn't mean that it ceases being such.

DRobert · Dec 10, 2012

Coralie said:
People who are born Protestant and who are "thinkers" by nature will often (certainly not always) gravitate towards Orthodoxy, because it's the only internally coherent branch of Christianity.

I suspect it has to do with theosis---if I understand it correctly, it has to do with obtaining the likeliness of Christ, that is God; To be godlike.

mercyforall · Feb 27, 2013

Brushstroke said:
I made a thread recently to say hello to everyone in here. I used to frequent this forum for quite awhile back around 2007, 2008 and the early part of 2009. I was a member of the Church at the time. I now no longer consider myself a member.

The reasons why I came to Orthodoxy are very broad. Mainly it was the historical implications of the Orthodox Church from my reading of the early church fathers and the "mystical" aspects of the Orthodox faith as compared to other Christian traditions. Also included would be its therapeutic form of spirituality (again, when compared to other Christian traditions) and its emphasis on personal responsibility not only in your ethics and morality but even in your spiritual life. I've noticed these reasons are pretty consistent across the board for a lot of converts.

Now I consider myself an atheist and a secular humanist. You do more studying into history and philosophy as that intellectual attitude demands of you, you start exploring other forms of spirituality, you start looking at the moral concerns of the Church and how they match up with the morals and ethics in the modern world...and Christianity kind of loses its luster. At least it has for me. It's not to say that I now hate God or hate the Church. I don't believe in God so I can't hate him. As for the Church, I think it's a very respectable institution that's done a lot of good for the world as well as a lot of bad. In a lot of ways I consider myself a "faithful atheist." I'm still respecting of what I've come from, but I can't for the life of me believe in it any more. You might consider it similar to how a lot of Jews are atheists but still practice Judaism.

I'm just wondering if Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans and other people from the "historic" branches of Christianity seem to lose faith more so than our Protestant/evangelical friends? That's the impression I get. Have any of you shared my thoughts?

Sounds like you were listening to your interlect instead of God. Thinking without prayer to deeply will make an atheist out of anyone. I was once Protestant and then converted to Catholicism and now see the fullness in Orthodox faith. My hopes and prayers are that you will some day come back home.

God Bless,

Gxg (G²) · Mar 16, 2013

God is so faithful..

FireDragon76 · Jul 3, 2013

In much of western Europe, atheism is a political statement. In the United States, it isn't although that is starting to change slowly.

Mikeb85 said:
Everything I was taught by my priest about Hesychasm, detachment to worldly desires, Orthodox prayer, etc..., was taught by the Buddha, as was most of what Christ taught.

I wonder if this is a comment on Jesus of Nazareth, or on your Eastern Orthodox priest? Most liberal Protestant and Catholic scholars would disagree that Jesus was just like the Buddha or a mystic- they see him as being far more political and less otherworldly. And I tend to agree. Saying "Jesus is Lord" or "Jesus is God" is a political statement as much as a religious statement.

I think mysticism has its pitfalls (in the ethics area) , and while I'm attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy's mystical tradition, I do not believe being a follower of Christ is necessarily done by abandoning the world. There is another path, deeply incarnational, that would speak against that. The kind of otherworldly asceticism that says true spirituality is defined by what you don't do is actually a lesser path and the real concession to human weakness, hence why Jesus was criticized for eating with sinners and not fasting.

ArmyMatt · Jul 3, 2013

I think mysticism has its pitfalls (in the ethics area) , and while I'm attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy's mystical tradition, I do not believe being a follower of Christ is necessarily done by abandoning the world. There is another path, deeply incarnational, that would speak against that. The kind of otherworldly asceticism that says true spirituality is defined by what you don't do is actually a lesser path and the real concession to human weakness, hence why Jesus was criticized for eating with sinners and not fasting.

you are right. when we say abandoning the world we mean that we abandon it in its fallenness. that can be through mystic contemplation in a cave in the desert, like many of the early Desert Fathers and Mothers, or a more practical, social justice approach like St Mary of Paris. both compliment each other and lead to paradise. so you follow where you are called.

The Conductor · Jul 7, 2013

As a Reformed Baptist, I find not believing in God and being surrounded by a secular culture to be the quickest path to atheism. I would grant that protestant churches tend not to focus on sanctification, which does weird things to people and could drive them away. Where it drives them to depends on the person.

That being said, atheism is not a one-way street. As Peter Hitchens, the Christian (anglican) brother of Christopher Hitchens once said, "It was my atheism that led me to faith."

FireDragon76 · Jul 7, 2013

The Conductor said:
As a Reformed Baptist, I find not believing in God and being surrounded by a secular culture to be the quickest path to atheism. I would grant that protestant churches tend not to focus on sanctification, which does weird things to people and could drive them away. Where it drives them to depends on the person"

Maybe because most Reformed Christians erroneously think of sanctification in moral rather than relational or cultic terms? As the holy fools show, one can be sanctified and not necessarily live a life defined by rigid moralism.

ArmyMatt · Jul 8, 2013

The Conductor said:
As a Reformed Baptist, I find not believing in God and being surrounded by a secular culture to be the quickest path to atheism. I would grant that protestant churches tend not to focus on sanctification, which does weird things to people and could drive them away. Where it drives them to depends on the person.

That being said, atheism is not a one-way street. As Peter Hitchens, the Christian (anglican) brother of Christopher Hitchens once said, "It was my atheism that led me to faith."

I'd love to know what us Orthodox do when it comes to sanctification that does such weird things to drive folks away....

Gxg (G²) · Jul 9, 2013

ArmyMatt said:
when we say abandoning the world we mean that we abandon it in its fallenness. that can be through mystic contemplation in a cave in the desert, like many of the early Desert Fathers and Mothers, or a more practical, social justice approach like St Mary of Paris. both compliment each other and lead to paradise. so you follow where you are called.

The Conductor · Jul 11, 2013

ArmyMatt said:
I'd love to know what us Orthodox do when it comes to sanctification that does such weird things to drive folks away....

Sorry for the ambiguous grammar. It's not focusing on sanctification that can drive people away.

Is Orthodoxy the quickest path to atheism?

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