Is Only God Perfect?

bhar · Apr 20, 2012

When Perfection is used as a term, it's commonly applied to God only. Agreed? I accept that premise that only God is or can be perfect. Therefore, that which is not God (Creation) is imperfect. And since not-God (Creation) is imperfect, it is that state or quality as a function of Creating. I.e., the imperfection of the world is primarily a product of God creating that which was not Himself. That is not to say that Adam and Eve's sin began a moral decay within creation...but imperfection was always inherint at Creation's first moment. Another way, without sin we would still be imperfect. Also, if we were created Perfect we would be God and have no need for saving. But then, God cannot create Himself.

sorednax · Apr 20, 2012

IMHO, I think man is the only "imperfection" in the universe.

animals, fore example, have no free will. They make no moral judgments. They simply do what is in their God-given instincts to do.

Everything in creation, from the growth of a flower, to the orbit of planets, follow the natural order God has laid out. They don't deviate from that.

Mankind, by having free will, is unique in that we can choose to follow God's word or not. That free will is what causes imperfection, because we can deviate from God's order.

One could draw the conclusion then that free will is inherently imperfect, because it allows for the possibility of deviation.

Some may even argue that God was flawed in giving mankind free will in the first place. Like a father allowing his toddlers to play with his loaded handgun, and expecting them to behave responsibly with it cause "he said so."

Others would say that we were in alignment with God's order until the deception at Eden, where we became imperfect by sinning.

bricklayer · Apr 20, 2012

bhar said:
When Perfection is used as a term, it's commonly applied to God only. Agreed? I accept that premise that only God is or can be perfect. Therefore, that which is not God (Creation) is imperfect. And since not-God (Creation) is imperfect, it is that state or quality as a function of Creating. I.e., the imperfection of the world is primarily a product of God creating that which was not Himself. That is not to say that Adam and Eve's sin began a moral decay within creation...but imperfection was always inherint at Creation's first moment. Another way, without sin we would still be imperfect. Also, if we were created Perfect we would be God and have no need for saving. But then, God cannot create Himself.

There are two types of perfection: fully actualized potentiality and simple actuality. Created things are a complex of potentiality and actuality. God is simple actuality; He has no potentiality.

The difference between an author and his character is humanly incalculable, but it is finite. The author is finite; the character is finite; therefore, the difference between them is finite. The Creator is infinite and His creatures are finite; the difference between them is infinite.

We are a psychosomatic union of human flesh and human spirit. All human bodies are composed of human flesh; all human souls are composed of human spirit.

All of Creation is subject to constant and exhaustive change. Creation is a process (a prescribed sequence of changes). Creation is the never ending process of the revelation of God's glory. Everything about that which is created is a process. Human beings are are a psychosomatic union of intellectual, emotional, willful and biological processes. Should these prescribed changes, these processes, cease we would be considered in that regard to be dead.

We are, all of creation is defined by our changes; it is our nature to change. God, the Creator, is defined by His unchanging, inviolate nature.

The bible does not hold out the actual characteristics attributable to God as His glory. It is not His infinite perfections that God reveals as His glory. God reveals His glory to us as to inviolate balance of His infinite perfections. God's glory is that holy, inviolate balance of His attributes.

I can go on and on about the beautiful vivid contrast between an unchanging Creator and His ever changing creation. Suffice it to say that the revelation of an infinite will prove to be a never ending process.

WinBySurrender · Apr 20, 2012

bhar said:
That is not to say that Adam and Eve's sin began a moral decay within creation...but imperfection was always inherint at Creation's first moment.

Not true. The Creation was perfect. God gave Adam and Eve freedom to choose, however, and when they chose imperfection, they brought that imperfection and sin into the world. God knew this would happen, which is why from the very start His plan was for salvation through Jesus Christ. He knew his created beings would choose imperfect over His perfection and love, so He made a way for them to be restored to Him. That is love. By the same token, remaining in imperfect -- sin -- brings His righteous judgment.

Jeffwhosoever · Apr 20, 2012

What about Angels? Can angels still fall, like Satan once did, or are they eternally secure? Are they "perfect" or not?

I don't have the answers - just wondered within the context of this thread on perfection.

Blessedj01 · Apr 20, 2012

They have a choice too. I don't think any more angels will fall, personally. The Bible says 1/3rd rebelled. The rest I assume, didn't and won't.

Win is right. Creation was perfect. I'm not sure how the conclusions in this thread came to be.

dayhiker · Apr 20, 2012

I agree, I don't think any more angles will fall.
Creation was perfect. As Rom 8 says, the creation is waiting the redemption of men for its salvation. So I don't see creation as perfect, now. But I don't see decay as part of that imperfection. That's part of the prefect cycle of recycling that goes on on the earth.

fhansen · Apr 20, 2012

bhar said:
When Perfection is used as a term, it's commonly applied to God only. Agreed? I accept that premise that only God is or can be perfect. Therefore, that which is not God (Creation) is imperfect. And since not-God (Creation) is imperfect, it is that state or quality as a function of Creating. I.e., the imperfection of the world is primarily a product of God creating that which was not Himself. That is not to say that Adam and Eve's sin began a moral decay within creation...but imperfection was always inherint at Creation's first moment. Another way, without sin we would still be imperfect. Also, if we were created Perfect we would be God and have no need for saving. But then, God cannot create Himself.

Aquinas, I believe, said that everything possesses a perfection in its own right-a perfection given to it by its creator, to simply be all that it's meant to be. Only sentient beings with free will can upset the apple cart by acting outside the will of God for them. I agree that the "flaw" which is inherent in creation is simply that it isn't -and cannot be- God, and this is what, IMO, allows for the abuse of the freedom He gave us, IOW this allows for the possibility of sin.

sorednax · Apr 21, 2012

Interesting, but then who created sin?

God may not sin, but if sin is a deviation from God's will, and he created a means for others to deviate from his will, then couldn't it stand to reason he created sin?

Could sin exist at all if God didn't will it?

Or...

If man created sin, because we have free will, then could sin be it's own man-made perfection?

Were we not made in his image? Isn't free will and having a soul make us more "divine" than the rest of creation? Do we not have at least a limited ability to create (a painting, a building, man-made elements)?

ehhh...it's late.

fhansen · Apr 21, 2012

sorednax said:
Interesting, but then who created sin?

God may not sin, but if sin is a deviation from God's will, and he created a means for others to deviate from his will, then couldn't it stand to reason he created sin?

Could sin exist at all if God didn't will it?

Or...

If man created sin, because we have free will, then could sin be it's own man-made perfection?

Were we not made in his image? Isn't free will and having a soul make us more "divine" than the rest of creation? Do we not have at least a limited ability to create (a painting, a building, man-made elements)?

ehhh...it's late.

Man's radically free-free to do anything-even disobey God-but he's not given the right to do this-that's the meaning of his being prohibited from eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Man has the right to do anything except one thing-to disobey God -and his imperfection lies in such an unwise act.

wayseer · Apr 21, 2012

Creation was 'good' but perhaps not perfect.

Perhaps that is our task - to perfect that which is good.

Blessedj01 · Apr 21, 2012

Creation was perfect.

wayseer · Apr 21, 2012

Where does the biblical texts say that?

fhansen · Apr 21, 2012

wayseer said:
Creation was 'good' but perhaps not perfect.

Perhaps that is our task - to perfect that which is good.

I like that, too. It also happens to align with classic Christian thought on the matter.

Blessedj01 · Apr 21, 2012

In the context of Genesis and creation, when God calls something "good," it means it is perfect.

Also it's illogical to think that God created an imperfect creation. Creation is meant to reflect on His perfectness.

fhansen · Apr 21, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
In the context of Genesis and creation, when God calls something "good," it means it is perfect.

Also it's illogical to think that God created an imperfect creation. Creation is meant to reflect on His perfectness.

The question comes up, though, 'Why is there sin/moral evil...imperfection?'

sorednax · Apr 21, 2012

Each day that God created, it says, "He looked, and saw that it was good."

Come to think of it, he NEVER said that about the creation of woman. -nooch!

Blessedj01 · Apr 21, 2012

fhansen said:
The question comes up, though, 'Why is there sin/moral evil...imperfection?'

It's really not that hard a question to answer. Human beings were created with free-will in mind. I think God knew that we were going to abuse this gift but still created us anyway. That's God's love - because he went ahead of us with the Christ.

Evil entered the world because of mankind's choice to disobey God. It wasn't that the creation was imperfect, it's that we capable of disobeying God. We aren't God, so we don't have the same inherent, unchanging Holiness that He has. Our holiness comes from Him.

Really the existence of evil shows more about the difference between man (covets the throne, easily goes back on his word) and God (owns the throne, never goes back on His word) more than it does the "imperfection" of creation.

Blessedj01 · Apr 21, 2012

sorednax said:
Each day that God created, it says, "He looked, and saw that it was good."

Come to think of it, he NEVER said that about the creation of woman. -nooch!

Not so:

Genesis 1:27-31
New International Version (NIV)
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

fhansen · Apr 21, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
It's really not that hard a question to answer. Human beings were created with free-will in mind. I think God knew that we were going to abuse this gift but still created us anyway. That's God's love - because he went ahead of us with the Christ.

Evil entered the world because of mankind's choice to disobey God. It wasn't that the creation was imperfect, it's that we capable of disobeying God. We aren't God, so we don't have the same inherent, unchanging Holiness that He has. Our holiness comes from Him.

Really the existence of evil shows more about the difference between man (covets the throne, easily goes back on his word) and God (owns the throne, never goes back on His word) more than it does the "imperfection" of creation.

Yes, I agree free will is what made sin a possibility-and that God desired that we have that gift in spite of the potential for evil that can come of it. The question remains, though, why would God's good creation-humankind- choose to abuse that freedom and sin? And the only answer that comes up for me is that part of His creative process isn't finished-He's molding us, educating us, having us be co-creators, if you will, participants in bringing about a greater creation precisely because of that free will-because He wants, ultimately, a creation that freely chooses only the good, rejecting the evil. And part of that process, with all the suffering and struggle it involves, is for us to experience-to know-good and evil, so we might finally, fully, like the Prodigal Son, return from the pigsty to the Father from whom we strayed and where we were always meant to be.

Maybe God can't create another god, with wisdom and will as perfect as His, or approximating His, except within the dimension of time, which affords us the opportunity to work out our salvation, to struggle with the attraction to sin (anything outside His will, anything apart from Him first and foremost), with the ingredients of revelation and grace playing their roles, so that ultimately He ends up with a creation that chooses life over death, good over evil, God over no God.

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