Hebrews 11:1 - Now
faith is the
assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher),
especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
I majored in/focused on Greek exegesis in seminary. I'm happy to have this level of discussions with you.
Although I do use Strong's, I try to stay away or work around any dictionary or lexical tools that insert theology into their "definitions." Your highlighted portion from Strong's is just that, a theological conclusion, whether right or wrong, and I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying I don't want dictionaries, concordances, or lexicons giving me theology. This is not a definition for "pistis" and it barely scratches the surface of how pistis and cognates are used in our Text.
BTW, I think there's more to Hebrews 11 than this translation brings out, but that's another discussion.
Although works are produced by authentic faith, works are not included in the definition of faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the means or basis by which we obtain or maintain salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (
Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (
1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.
This is all your conclusion, Daniel. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it, mainly because I know your underlying conclusions and thus what you mean by it.
You've been very creative, for example, to try to explain away what we're clearly commanded to do in Philippians 2:12 in collaboration with God per 2:13. Also, when you offered the analogies of the gym for the body, and the farmer for the land, earlier in this thread, you never answer my follow-up question about these things.
The fact is that we're commanded to "work to accomplish" (better = "accomplish by work") our
salvation (not "sanctification," but "salvation") with fear and trembling as God is energizing us to will and do. Even if I go along with your desire to translate this Greek word as "work out," as many do, and as you prefer, it still is a command to work at what we've been given. And my question to you was, what if we don't?
Your answer seems to be that if we're truly saved we will, and if we don't, then we were not saved. Correct? The other answer per some is that we walked away from what we were given. Other's say, no matter, we were saved and we just lose rewards.
I can see now that you've classified Ephesians 2:8-9 as your first tense of Salvation. Assuming so, I would agree with you, but also say there is more stated in those verses. If you see this as the first tense, then why do you reference it as an argument in a discussion about the second tense of Salvation, which is mainly what we're (including BH) discussing? Do you really think we don't understand what you want to label technically as "Justification" and the crediting of righteousness to faith?
Here is a good example on how certain people error by "including" works in faith and teach salvation by faith and works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards contradicted himself by making this statement below in blue:
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..
His argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then afterward stating that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. It's all smoke and mirrors. BTW where do you attend church?
I'm not Roman Catholic, but I do see the point in his first statement, "
We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". This is part of the "Faith is never Alone" argument against "Faith Alone." I would just delete his next statements and define and explain Faith Biblically, which I began to do in an earlier post.
As for "works" being attached to (Faith
plus works) a living, Biblical Faith, I think James makes this clear, and As I explained earlier, I think Paul agrees with him in Romans 4. I see Paul as explaining that we just need to understand that the + works is not a part of our initial Salvation ("Justification" if you prefer).
The thing is with Romanism, although Protestantism stands firmly against it, and rightfully so in many regards IMO, there are some very well versed R.Catholics on some of these threads, who I have more agreement with than I have with many non-R.Catholics.
Where do you attend church? Does it really matter? If I was someone sitting behind you to the left on Sundays, would you be able to use my church as an argument against me? BTW, do you look like Jerry Seinfeld? Your avatar always throws me.
The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith
"apart from additions or modifications." (
Luke 8:12;
John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18;
Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4;
1 Corinthians 1:21;
Galatians 2:16;
Ephesians 2:8;
Philippians 3:9;
2 Timothy 3:15;
1 John 5:13 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's
faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.
That's a lot of work to say something where you're simply beginning by adding your own interpretative conclusion (
"apart from additions or modifications,") which is no different than what some, mainly in the in the Free Grace camp, for example, also do with "Faith."
When we isolate verses and build entire theological systems in doing so, of course we can make the Text say what we want it to say. But, when we allow the Text to define it's words, which it does more than many will allow for, then "Faith," for example, becomes a word that is explained well beyond what many want to isolate it to mean. I agree with your "rightly understood" parenthesis.
Strong was doing this in what you quoted earlier. When I said I try to avoid such work, it's simply because I determined at some point, after being trained in exegesis, that I wanted to do my own work to whatever degree and then see if I agree with works like Strong's. There's too much disagreement in theology for me to simply take works and accept them.
Re: Faith Alone in Christ Alone: I don't use the phrase. I agree with what you said about not needing to add "alone," and with what you said re: "rightly understood." As for "Christ Alone," it's just another coined phrase that Scripture like the following tells us is not entirely accurate per Jesus:
NKJ John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and
believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Faith must result in producing works (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) or else it demonstrates that it's dead. This does not mean that works are "included" in faith or are the very essence of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Certain people in the never alone group cross the line and teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (
Ephesians 2:8,9;
Titus 3:5;
2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (
James 2:14-26).
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (
Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (
James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
Honestly, I getting a bit tired of reading what I've read a thousand times before, as I know you will get tired of reading my long response to you.
I think we're pretty much in agreement in your first paragraph above. I would just add the commanded abiding into it. Our discussion would then trend into the OSAS topic, which I'll set aside for now.
RE: "Man is saved through faith and not by works (
Ephesians 2:8,9;" - Earlier re" Eph2, you said something to the effect of "have been saved." Now you say "is saved." You seem to look at some Greek and use it at times. How would you translate the perfect paraphrastic construction of the present tense verb + the perfect participle in Ephesians 2:8: "have been saved" or "are saved"? Is this pointing to your first tense of salvation, or more? Is Salvation a process of 3 tenses, or is it not?
RE: "
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works." "Christ saves" or "Christ saved"? If we talk in tenses, maybe we should talk in tenses, and begin & continue doing so. Then maybe Philippians 2:12-13 will make sense to you.
The rest of your paragraph has been discussed.
When you say that faith "includes" obedience to God + works, you are basically saying that faith "is" obedience/works and that we are saved through faith + obedience/works, which is in error. Obedience, which is produced after having been saved through faith is works and we are not saved by works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (
Ephesians 2:8-10)
If I elaborate to be more clear, as I have already done above in the discussion re: "+" works, then will you accept that works can be separated from Faith, as Paul clearly explains in Romans 4 (which I see as harmonizing with James)? Would you accept that Biblical Faith includes works, but God has done all the work, and does all the work to bring us to Biblical Faith, and until we come to Biblical Faith, as commanded, our Biblical works can only begin when we come to Biblical Faith?
Biblical Faith + Biblical Works begins the moment we come to Biblical Faith. Not before. So, we could do no Biblical Works, before we came to Biblical Faith. Once we come to Biblical Faith, we can do Biblical Works. This is what James and Paul are clarifying.
RE: Obedience. Our Text reveals that you are clearly wrong about Faith-Obedience. I usually don't get an answer to this question, but I'll ask it anyway. Maybe you'll be kind and open enough to respond to it. Your friend, Brian, dodged a response to this in another thread with every tool he has.
In a few places in Scripture (1 John 3, John 6, and elsewhere I'd have to find), unbelievers, at minimum, are commanded by God to believe in His Son. So, since God commands Biblical Belief in His Son, can we believe in His Son without being obedient to God? Although Faith and Obedience are 2 separate words, how do we separate Faith and Obedience when it comes to believing in Jesus Christ as God commands?
I can show you how Paul and the writer of Hebrews use faith & obedience interchangeably. You are clearly wrong that Obedience is a Work. Apart from Faith-Obedience, there are no tenses of Salvation for us.
Paul could not have made this any clearer.
Romans 4:2 - 2 For
if Abraham was
justified by works, he has
something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham
believed God, and
it (faith, not works) was
accounted to him for righteousness." Paul then goes on to say in verse 5-6: But to him who
does not work but
believes on Him who justifies the ungodly,
his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom
God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Crystal clear, yet certain people will still try to "get around" that anyway they can and teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.
Paul clearly negates salvation by faith + works and teaches salvation by faith, not works. (
Romans 4:2-6;
Ephesians 2:8,9;
Titus 3:5;
2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Certain people will try to "get around" these passages of scripture by teaching we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law) but that argument is bogus.
I've previously addressed in this thread what Paul is saying here by elaborating on the first-class condition you identify by highlighting "if." Once again, apply your tenses to this and these Scripture(s) and tell me if Paul is talking about tense 1, 2 or 3. Also, please determine for once and for all if your tenses understanding means that Salvation is a process.
So how hard must we work in order to help God accomplish our salvation? That is "type 2 works salvation."
How hard do you work to increasingly overcome sin and become trained in godliness under subjection God's Grace? So, your coined phrase is your negating what God commands through Paul in Philippians 2:12-13. Nice work.
It's not about Biblical faith must abide, but will abide. A bare profession of faith that does not abide demonstrates that it's a spurious faith. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.
1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
Again, an OSAS discussion. I understand what view you've settled on so far. You're opening up a more in-depth discussion of Greek tenses, comparisons to related Scriptures, not to mention the overall context of 1 John. We're not there yet.
Biblical faith results in producing obedience/works and continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.
Change this to continual (a "meno" and "hupomone" concept) Biblical Faith-Obedience results in producing continual works and we may be in agreement!
At times I will hear Roman Catholics say that "faith alone" is correct "after" they "shoe horn" works "into" faith, but it's really salvation by faith + works and not salvation through faith in Christ alone.
OK. Informative & understood. I'll pray to Mary and ask her to get them to correct where they're off.