Is Obedience to God Necessary?

[Bible Highlighter]

You said: As I pointed out to you before, there are other believers who hold to the same view of sin and salvation as I do. I did not invent it. Other had believed this way long before I was even born.

And I asked: Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

Apparently you can't. So you're obfuscating. Either that or it's just because you're not very good at hermeneutics.

I did with 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14-17. You just do not want to see it (which would also include others who hold to a mortal sin and still be saved type belief). For the exact wording does not need to be there in order to express a similiar concept.

Eyes full of adultery = looking upon a woman in lust.
Being cast bodily in hellfire is punishment in the afterlife = Being reserved in mist of darkness is a being a form of punishment.

How exactly do you see hellfire as being any different than being reserved in mist of darkness in regards to punishment? They are both forms of punishment in the afterlife that is for the wicked.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. In Ephesians 2:8-9: Paul is condemning Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace through faith in Christ (under the Old Covenant system of ceremonial laws that are no more), and James is condemning Belief Alone-ism because faith without works is dead (James 2:17), and even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). James is not referring to being justified by men only because James points to Abraham being justified by works and we know that no man had seen Abraham performing his act of faith before God in sacrificing Isaac. In addition, James chapter 1 also confirms obedience as a part of salvation, as well (See: James 1:12, and James 1:21-22).

Ephesians 2:9 is dealing with Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace because these are the kind of works a person would wrongfully boast in themselves by doing such works.

Ephesians 2:10 is dealing with God Directed Works Done Through the Believer After they are saved by God's grace because they are the kind of works a person is created unto Christ Jesus to do, and that we are admonished to walk in them.

James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
So we have to rightly divide what kind of works Paul is referring to, and what kind of works James is referring to.

Brother what are your thoughts on Romans 4:5?

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Brother what are your thoughts on Romans 4:5?

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Romans chapter 4 and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone Salvationism (Without God's grace) or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility (Works of Faith) in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all because he was fighting against the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Brother what are your thoughts on Romans 4:5?

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul was fighting against what I would call, "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (instead of being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the gospel, and His mercy), then they would be making a Work of the Law (the Torah or Old Law) the basis of their salvation instead of God's grace. The entrance gate and the foundation of salvation would be circumcision or a law, or work. This heresy of “Circumcision Salvationism” is the context of even Romans 4. For Paul says,

9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.” (Romans 4:9-12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Brother what are your thoughts on Romans 4:5?

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In Romans 4:4-5: The word “work” here is in reference to “Works ALONE Salvationism” (Without God's grace) because of the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” The phrase: “one who does not work” is an attack upon the false Pharisee religion that made salvation all about a system of works with little to no grace. Paul is making his case for the first aspect of salvation of being saved by God's grace (Which is without the deeds of the Law).

#1. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

I hope my three posts help, brother.

 

[Bobber]

Because a lot of people who *claim* to be “Christians” aren’t actually even actively struggling against their sins; it’s like they just don’t want to obey the one who died for them. I know this because I myself was like that (and likely wasn’t even a real born-again Christian) for years and years. I thought I basically had a license to sin and that “It’s okay, I’m saved.” Which is a big danger of such a mindset, but also looking back it is SO disrespectful towards God and Jesus. Totally takes Him for granted.

Jesus said MANY would think they were a Christian and at the judgment could hear from him "I never knew you" Matt 7:23 Here's the thing. There are many, many things we can make a mistake about and get wrong but NEVER, EVER, EVER should we allow this to be one of them. All I can say if people don't fear the Lord enough to make sure THEY BETTER. There can be no words....no words that can describe the horror of not being received by the Lord. Making sure the Lord is everything to you life isn't something you have to do either. It's something you get to do. God help us all to draw to him ever so closer.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, it is.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:......

There it is. Salvation by grace through faith AND WORKS, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). This is what I refer to as “type 2 works salvation” which is so common in the NOSAS camp. *This is the very heart of your error that leads to further error by confusing “descriptive” passages of scripture with “prescriptive” passages of scripture which results in works righteousness and even hints of sinless perfection.

You have dug your hole so deep that I can’t get through to you at all and any further discussion with you would just be a waste of time. Just like LoveGodsWord, your endless long winded rants to win people over to your belief system has become an absolute obsession with you in order to promote yourself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Romans chapter 4 and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone Salvationism (Without God's grace) or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility (Works of Faith) in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all because he was fighting against the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

Ok but that doesn’t seem to address the highlighted portion of the verse brother. Verse 5 speaks of those who do not work but they believe and to them they are accredited righteousness. I’m curious what your take away is from this verse?

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Romans 4:4-5: The word “work” here is in reference to “Works ALONE Salvationism” (Without God's grace) because of the heresy of what I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” The phrase: “one who does not work” is an attack upon the false Pharisee religion that made salvation all about a system of works with little to no grace. Paul is making his case for the first aspect of salvation of being saved by God's grace (Which is without the deeds of the Law).

#1. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

I hope my three posts help, brother.

Ok this answers my question a bit better.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There it is. Salvation by grace through faith AND WORKS, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). This is what I refer to as “type 2 works salvation” which is so common in the NOSAS camp. *This is the very heart of your error that leads to further error by confusing “descriptive” passages of scripture with “prescriptive” passages of scripture which results in works righteousness and even hints of sinless perfection.

You have dug your hole so deep that I can’t get through to you at all and any further discussion with you would just be a waste of time. Just like LoveGodsWord, your endless long winded rants to win people over to your belief system has become an absolute obsession with you in order to promote yourself.

I am busy again. In order to give a proper reply: I will have to reply to your post at another time with Scripture.

May you be blessed in the Lord (even if we strongly disagree on the Scriptures).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ok this answers my question a bit better.

Most appear to ignore the context of when Paul uses the words like “law” or “works” generically. In cases like these: Paul is referring to the Works of the Law of Moses (More specifically in many cases the ceremonial laws like keeping the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etc.). One does not have far to go in the context to see this kind of context. Many times circumcision is mentioned, and other times clues are given that Paul is referring to the Torah Law (the 613). Paul never condemns in keeping the laws that come directly from Jesus Christ and or His followers. If Paul were to do that, his own words would condemn him. For in 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I did with 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14-17. You just do not want to see it (which would also include others who hold to a mortal sin and still be saved type belief). For the exact wording does not need to be there in order to express a similiar concept.

Eyes full of adultery = looking upon a woman in lust.
Being cast bodily in hellfire is punishment in the afterlife = Being reserved in mist of darkness is a being a form of punishment.

How exactly do you see hellfire as being any different than being reserved in mist of darkness in regards to punishment? They are both forms of punishment in the afterlife that is for the wicked.

It should be plainly obvious when I asked: can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought? I meant someone else like yourself who interprets the Bible.

If you want to go with what anyone outside the Bible says is not worth learning from, then you're saying that you yourself aren't worth learning from.

Also it should be obvious 2 Peter 2:1 and 2 Peter 2:14-17 isn't talking about ordinary born again believers who have a single sinful thought cross their mind.

 

[GDL]

There it is. Salvation by grace through faith AND WORKS, in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). This is what I refer to as “type 2 works salvation” which is so common in the NOSAS camp. *This is the very heart of your error that leads to further error by confusing “descriptive” passages of scripture with “prescriptive” passages of scripture which results in works righteousness and even hints of sinless perfection.

For someone who understands the existence of 3 "tenses" of salvation, you don't seem to be able to discern what tense is being discussed in the various verses you reference. Simply put, you see no collaborative work on our part to walk the narrow path after being allowed to walk through the narrow gate by Biblical Faith w/o works (except for the work Jesus Christ commands unbelievers do to receive the gift He gives).

Just because you made up a phrase ("type 2 works salvation") doesn't make it Biblically meaningful to anyone but yourself, Daniel. Assuming it's true for the sake of argument that your soteriology is wrong, so is your made-up phrase.

 

[Ceallaigh]

For someone who understands the existence of 3 "tenses" of salvation, you don't seem to be able to discern what tense is being discussed in the various verses you reference. Simply put, you see no collaborative work on our part to walk the narrow path after being allowed to walk through the narrow gate by Biblical Faith w/o works (except for the work Jesus Christ commands unbelievers do to receive the gift He gives).

There's a difference between a collaborative work in being a Christian, and a collaborative work in atonement and justification.

When someone starts saying that part of justification though the atonement of Jesus rests on the believer, they are saying believers play as much of a part in their justification as Jesus' death for their sins and His resurrection.

Just because you made up a phrase ("type 2 works salvation") doesn't make it Biblically meaningful to anyone but yourself, Daniel. Assuming it's true for the sake of argument that your soteriology is wrong, so is your made-up phrase.

Bible Highlighter's "belief alone-ism" is a made up phrase as well. But I don't see a problem with someone coming up with a phrase to express something, just as long as they make it clear it's what they personally call something, as Danthemailman did. Unless we stick to only quoting scripture, a lot of what we say in these threads are our own words.

 

[Danthemailman]

The problem is that you are not defining or elaborating on what Biblical Faith ("authentic faith") is and includes. Bible Highlighter has been pointing this out in his use of "Belief Alone-ism." This is an old debate that still rages: Faith alone vs. Faith is never alone.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Although works are produced by authentic faith, works are not included in the definition of faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the means or basis by which we obtain or maintain salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Here is a good example on how certain people error by "including" works in faith and teach salvation by faith and works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards contradicted himself by making this statement below in blue:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then afterward stating that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. It's all smoke and mirrors. BTW where do you attend church?

When Jesus said that we must believe in Him to have eternal life, some want to take this as Faith Alone and some counter this by saying Faith is never Alone.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

You've already pointed out that Faith must have works or it is dead faith. So, you've begun to explain what's included in Biblical Faith and why it's never alone, which is what the never alone group is trying to explain.

Faith must result in producing works (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) or else it demonstrates that it's dead. This does not mean that works are "included" in faith or are the very essence of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Certain people in the never alone group cross the line and teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

Now, if you do more work from the Text, you'll find that Faith & Obedience are correlated. So, Biblical Faith now includes Obedience to God + Works God has prepared for us to do. If you continue your research on Biblical Faith, you'll find several others words that explain what it includes.

When you say that faith "includes" obedience to God + works, you are basically saying that faith "is" obedience/works and that we are saved through faith + obedience/works, which is in error. Obedience, which is produced after having been saved through faith is works and we are not saved by works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

James is foundational for explaining Biblical Faith. Paul comes along in Romans 4:2 and uses a first-class condition (which is an assumption of truth for the sake of argument) and says:

NKJ Romans 4:1-2 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh1? 2 For if (assuming it's true for the sake of argument) Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Paul could not have made this any clearer. Romans 4:2 - 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." Paul then goes on to say in verse 5-6: But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Crystal clear, yet certain people will still try to "get around" that anyway they can and teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Frankly, I think Paul is dealing with what James had taught. Paul does not negate Faith + Works, he simply says that it's the [Biblical] Faith (that contains obedience and works and...) that God credited righteousness to.

Paul clearly negates salvation by faith + works and teaches salvation by faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Certain people will try to "get around" these passages of scripture by teaching we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

Salvation is God's Plan and God's work. His work is primary and foundational. Even when we work with Him to accomplish our Salvation with fear and trembling, He is working in us to energize us to do what He requires of us (Philippians 2).

So how hard must we work in order to help God accomplish our salvation? That is "type 2 works salvation."

Apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15 per Jesus re: the vine, which also tell us that Biblical Faith must be abiding/remaining and not momentary). Attached to Him He nourishes & energizes us and we then produce (working with Him in accomplishing our Salvation).

It's not about Biblical faith must abide, but will abide. A bare profession of faith that does not abide demonstrates that it's a spurious faith. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.
1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

If we simply define Biblical Faith, then, Yes, every one of those verses that says believe in Him for life means having a Biblical Faith, which is obedient, lasting, does works, etc...

Biblical faith results in producing obedience/works and continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

Faith Alone is correct, but only if we understand what Biblical Faith is, and can rightly divide where God says our work is not involved, because only He can do the necessary work.

At times I will hear Roman Catholics say that "faith alone" is correct "after" they "shoe horn" works "into" faith, but it's really salvation by faith + works and not salvation through faith in Christ alone.

 

[Danthemailman]

For someone who understands the existence of 3 "tenses" of salvation, you don't seem to be able to discern what tense is being discussed in the various verses you reference. Simply put, you see no collaborative work on our part to walk the narrow path after being allowed to walk through the narrow gate by Biblical Faith w/o works (except for the work Jesus Christ commands unbelievers do to receive the gift He gives).

Just because you made up a phrase ("type 2 works salvation") doesn't make it Biblically meaningful to anyone but yourself, Daniel. Assuming it's true for the sake of argument that your soteriology is wrong, so is your made-up phrase.

I understand the difference between justification, ongoing sanctification and glorification and what tense is being discussed in the various verses I referenced. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saves us by grace through faith, then after that, we do the rest, with His help of course. Back door works salvation.

Now I actually do see work on the part of the believer in regards to the process of ongoing sanctification as believers progress in spiritual growth and maturity. Believers are active and not passive in this process, yet it is God who works in believers, both to will and to do for His good pleasure. This is not about working to help God save us or keep us saved based on the merits of our performance as works-salvationists teach.

"Type 2 works salvation" is a phrase I use to point out how people teach that salvation is "maintained by works." Sadly, prideful man is over confident in his own righteousness and looks down on others, just like the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. It's actually your soteriology that is wrong and so is the soteriology of all who also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

There's a difference between a collaborative work in being a Christian, and a collaborative work in atonement and justification.

When someone starts saying that part of justification though the atonement of Jesus rests on the believer, they are saying believers play as much of a part in their justification as Jesus' death for their sins and His resurrection.

You nailed it! Sadly, man wants to play a part in their salvation and boast in their performance. Oh the pride of man! Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

Bible Highlighter's "belief alone-ism" is a made up phrase as well. But I don't see a problem with someone coming up with a phrase to express something, just as long as they make it clear it's what they personally call something, as Danthemailman did. Unless we stick to only quoting scripture, a lot of what we say in these threads are our own words.

Well said brother.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You nailed it! Sadly, man wants to play a part in their salvation and boast in their performance. Oh the pride of man! Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

Seems like a combination of egotism (self reliance) and a lacking of complete faith in Jesus.

 

[GDL]

There's a difference between a collaborative work in being a Christian, and a collaborative work in atonement and justification.

When someone starts saying that part of justification though the atonement of Jesus rests on the believer, they are saying believers play as much of a part in their justification as Jesus' death for their sins and His resurrection.

Agree. So where have I said we collaborate in our justification (Daniel's "were saved" tense), other than to point out the words of Jesus Christ where He commanded unbelievers to work to receive the gift He gives (John 6), which stands soundly against some of the "works salvation" allegations made so routinely by many?

Also, FWIW, I've discussed this at length with Bible Highlighter ("BH") in another thread, but I'm not a fan of the Justification, Sanctification, Glorification labeling. Firstly, it's all Salvation, as Daniel's 3 tenses identify. Secondly, when we begin making these labels - mostly the first 2 - technical labels for the tenses of Salvation, it confuses readers of the Text when we read of justification in James, for instance. Also, "sanctification" is used in the Text to refer to Daniel's first tense as well as the second tense. So, our technical labels are not completely accurate and they blur the fact that all three tenses are actually Salvation.

As BH has identified, Salvation is a process as God has designed and implemented it as His Plan. This is why Daniel is able to identify the three tenses of Salvation. Soteriological interpretations have pretty much isolated "saved" to strictly apply to the first tense. But our Text clearly speaks of saved, being saved (as Christians), and will be saved (as Christians who have abided and endured as commanded).

Do you agree with the three tenses of Salvation Daniel stated earlier in this thread? Do you agree that Salvation is a process? How would you categorize the verses Daniel referenced to allege BH is in deeply in error?

Bible Highlighter's "belief alone-ism" is a made up phrase as well. But I don't see a problem with someone coming up with a phrase to express something, just as long as they make it clear it's what they personally call something, as Danthemailman did. Unless we stick to only quoting scripture, a lot of what we say in these threads are our own words.

Agree to a point. IMO BH's "belief alone-ism" is easy to understand and identify as it is simply carrying on the "faith is never alone" argument against an erroneous understanding of "faith alone."

If we're going to make things up, I think it falls upon us to explain ourselves rather than just throwing it out there as if it's supposed to be meaningful to everybody. Frankly, I spend enough time unwinding the established sayings without having to deal with another one, which is pretty much what I said to Daniel when he first used it with me. In the context of this thread OP, it's one of those "memes" that I have no desire to adopt. Obviously, you can if you'd like.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Agree. So where have I said we collaborate in our justification (Daniel's "were saved" tense), other than to point out the words of Jesus Christ where He commanded unbelievers to work to receive the gift He gives (John 6), which stands soundly against some of the "works salvation" allegations made so routinely by many?

Also, FWIW, I've discussed this at length with Bible Highlighter ("BH") in another thread, but I'm not a fan of the Justification, Sanctification, Glorification labeling. Firstly, it's all Salvation, as Daniel's 3 tenses identify. Secondly, when we begin making these labels - mostly the first 2 - technical labels for the tenses of Salvation, it confuses readers of the Text when we read of justification in James, for instance. Also, "sanctification" is used in the Text to refer to Daniel's first tense as well as the second tense. So, our technical labels are not completely accurate and they blur the fact that all three tenses are actually Salvation.

As BH has identified, Salvation is a process as God has designed and implemented it as His Plan. This is why Daniel is able to identify the three tenses of Salvation. Soteriological interpretations have pretty much isolated "saved" to strictly apply to the first tense. But our Text clearly speaks of saved, being saved (as Christians), and will be saved (as Christians who have abided and endured as commanded).

Do you agree with the three tenses of Salvation Daniel stated earlier in this thread? Do you agree that Salvation is a process? How would you categorize the verses Daniel referenced to allege BH is in deeply in error?

What I think is that works salvation folks are all over the road. The more they go into it, the more convoluted and contradictory it gets. And I'm only going to go so far down that rabbit hole. I'm not applying that to you, because I haven't read any of your posts for quite a while and don't remember what all you've had to say. I'm just talking about proponents of works salvation in general I've come across. Really though as tangled as it gets, the whole thing boils down to, "CHRISTAINS CAN'T BE ALOWED TO THINK IT'S OKAY LIVE LIKE THE DEVIL!!!". And added to that, "If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile!". "We need to keep those naughty Christians on their toes!" "No more than that, we need to keep their toes held over hell fire!"

As for what you just posted, it sounds like you're describing Theosis, which I've been learning about here and there from teachers such as Bishop Kallistos Ware and Dr. Jordan B Cooper (who prefers the term Christification).
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