Is not honoring the sabbath a sin?

[ToxicReboMan]

Weren't the Pharisees admonished for this type of legalism?

Luke 13:14-16 NASB
​

But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, "There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day."

But the Lord answered him and said, "You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?

"And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
​

 

[Stryder06]

The issue is keeping the sabbath day holy.

And to answer the question, yes it is a sin. Just as much as breaking any of the other nine is a sin.


Edit: In an attempt to be clearer: Legalism when it comes to the sabbath involves making the sabbath a burden. One is not being legalistic if they inform someone that we have to keep the sabbath. They become legalistic when they make keeping the sabbath a burden.

Say for instance that I told you it was a sin to tie your shoe on the sabbath. Now say Jesus comes along says "You know your shoes untied right?" Your response. "Yes Lord." He then tells you "Tie your shoe, it's ok." Has He just broken the sabbath or has He simply freed you from a burden that wasn't suppose to be there in the first place? Keep that example in mind when you think about the Pharisees and how Jesus dealt with them. It may help.

 

[Albion]

The issue is keeping the sabbath day holy.

The Roman Catholic Church says "yes." My own view, however, is that the New Testament releases us from that obligation, which was binding on the Hebrews, and since I believe the New Testament to be the inspired Word of God, I have to answer "no" to the question of the thread.

 

[squint]

The issue is keeping the sabbath day holy.

And to answer the question, yes it is a sin. Just as much as breaking any of the other nine is a sin.


Edit: In an attempt to be clearer: Legalism when it comes to the sabbath involves making the sabbath a burden. One is not being legalistic if they inform someone that we have to keep the sabbath. They become legalistic when they make keeping the sabbath a burden.

Say for instance that I told you it was a sin to tie your shoe on the sabbath. Now say Jesus comes along says "You know your shoes untied right?" Your response. "Yes Lord." He then tells you "Tie your shoe, it's ok." Has He just broken the sabbath or has He simply freed you from a burden that wasn't suppose to be there in the first place? Keep that example in mind when you think about the Pharisees and how Jesus dealt with them. It may help.

And the SDA doctrine doesn't make the Sabbath a BURDEN by laying SIN, CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH upon those non-SATURDAY keepers in HONOR of that day???

It might appear to me you can concoct NO GREATER BURDEN than that.

please spare me...

 

[Stryder06]

The Roman Catholic Church says "yes." My own view, however, is that the New Testament releases us from that obligation, which was binding on the Hebrews, and since I believe the New Testament to be the inspired Word of God, I have to answer "no" to the question of the thread.

If Christ said the sabbath was made for man, how can we come to understand that it was only for the Hebrews.

It would seem strange that no one until the Exodus had to keep it, and then no one after the cross would have to keep it. Wouldn't that make God a little capricious? Doesn't He say that He doesn't change?

 

[ToxicReboMan]

The issue is keeping the sabbath day holy.

How does one keep the sabbath holy? When you say holy you mean as "set apart" correct?

And to answer the question, yes it is a sin. Just as much as breaking any of the other nine is a sin.

I can't even meet you halfway here. You consider it just as bad as murder? I can't buy that. Perhaps I misunderstood??

Plus, not all sin is the same. Some sins are worse than others. Consider the passage below for example...

John 19:10-12 ESV
​

So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?"


Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."


From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar’s friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar."​

 

[Albion]

If Christ said the sabbath was made for man, how can we come to understand that it was only for the Hebrews.

Because those are two different concepts. In fact, you are supporting my point by noting that Christ considered the Sabbath to have been made for man, whereas the legalists consider it to have been made for God with us merely doing our duty to him by continuing to observe it as if we were under the Law instead of under Grace.

It would seem strange that no one until the Exodus had to keep it, and then no one after the cross would have to keep it. Wouldn't that make God a little capricious? Doesn't He say that He doesn't change?

There are dozens of ways in which God seems to have changed over the course of the sisty-six books of the Bible. What you have to understand is that what may seem to us to be a change is actually God progressively preparing and developing his relationship to mankind and vice-versa. It's not a change if it was his plan all along. You could argue that sending his Son to save us was a "change." I would answer that he had that in mind from before the foundations of the world were laid.

 

[Stryder06]

And the SDA doctrine doesn't make the Sabbath a BURDEN by laying SIN, CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH upon those non-SATURDAY keepers in HONOR of that day???

It might appear to me you can concoct NO GREATER BURDEN than that.

please spare me...

Who said we do that? Do we agree that committing adultery is a sin? Am I placed under a burden now because should I break my marriage vows and not repent then I will be subject to Eternal Death?

We place no burden on the sabbath. Keeping the sabbath but living a life of fornication will get you the same results as someone who denies God and never follows a single command: Death, and eternal separation from God.

It's all about the heart Squint. God knows there is a difference between those who don't know, and those who willfully choose to live a life in ignorance. The latter is no excuse and will result in one being lost.

 

[squint]

Every commandment works in TWO DISTINCT WAYS...

These 'ways' are demonstrated simply

ALL the commandments are fulfilled when we love our neighbors as ourselves. The entirety of the LAW resides upon THIS ONE GOAL. We'll call it RULE #1. I'd call it rule #2, but John the Apostle was very clear that if we can't love our 'brother' then any claim to loving God is A LIE from a 'murderer.' So, in all matters of LAW...see RULE #1. This would appear to be a good and steadfast measure of ALL LAW.

So, the non-pork eaters JUSTIFY themselves for their supposed obedience, and in their MINDS they heap SIN, CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH on those who eat pork...

Did they then follow THE LAW?

See Rule #1 and simply compare.

Same measure for EVERY COMMAND or LAW. All of them are FULfilled by loving our neighbors as ourselves. If someone wants some perceived ADD ON blessing for not eating pork, HEY, great...DON'T eat...But I might also advise to DO NOT EAT CONDEMNATION, COUNTING SINS and promoting ETERNAL DEATH to your neighbors because THAT is where the REAL SWINE MEAL exists for the MIND.

In these two ways the LAW is also A TRAP and a REVEALER of what 'really' is in the HEART of those who reflect on same. EVIL will come forth from MANY and the LOVE of many WILL WAX COLD...so cold that the legalist will throw any person to eternal death over the SMALLEST infraction they can trumph up...

Snake handlers would be well advised to put their hands on the real snake crawling around in their HEADS...

enjoy!

squint

 

[Stryder06]

How does one keep the sabbath holy? When you say holy you mean as "set apart" correct?

It's about a state of mind. Coming to God to commune with Him and to spend time with Him. We are to abstain from all unneccsary work and focus on our creator. The day is already holy. We are just asked to keep it that way by not doing our own pleasure on it.

I can't even meet you halfway here. You consider it just as bad as murder? I can't buy that. Perhaps I misunderstood??

Plus, not all sin is the same. Some sins are worse than others. Consider the passage below for example...

John 19:10-12 ESV
​

So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?"


Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."


From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar’s friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar."​

I do think you misunderstand. Question, do you think that adultery is as bad as murder? Now does it really matter when you consider that both individuals would be lost? Sin is the transgression of the law, and the penalty of sin is death. Not keeping the fourth is as bad as not keeping the second. And not keeping the eighth is as bad as not keeping the third. All of it (for those that refuse to repent and turn from their wicked ways) will land you in hell.

Now I do believe that there are different degrees of punishment in hell. This would fall directly inline with what Christ said in the passage above. We can also remember that Christ told (I can't remember which city it was) but He told one of them that it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of Judgment then for them.

 

[Stryder06]

Every commandment works in TWO DISTINCT WAYS...

These 'ways' are demonstrated simply

ALL the commandments are fulfilled when we love our neighbors as ourselves. The entirety of the LAW resides upon THIS ONE GOAL. We'll call it RULE #1. I'd call it rule #2, but John the Apostle was very clear that if we can't love our 'brother' then any claim to loving God is A LIE from a 'murderer.' So, in all matters of LAW...see RULE #1. This would appear to be a good and steadfast measure of ALL LAW.

So, the non-pork eaters JUSTIFY themselves for their supposed obedience, and in their MINDS they heap SIN, CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH on those who eat pork...

Did they then follow THE LAW?

See Rule #1 and simply compare.

Same measure for EVERY COMMAND or LAW. All of them are FULfilled by loving our neighbors as ourselves. If someone wants some perceived ADD ON blessing for not eating pork, HEY, great...DON'T eat...But I might also advise to DO NOT EAT CONDEMNATION, COUNTING SINS and promoting ETERNAL DEATH to your neighbors because THAT is where the REAL SWINE MEAL exists for the MIND.

In these two ways the LAW is also A TRAP and a REVEALER of what 'really' is in the HEART of those who reflect on same. EVIL will come forth from MANY and the LOVE of many WILL WAX COLD...yeah, real cold.

enjoy!

squint

Ok, I'm going to make this as simple as I can.

First: Do you believe that there will be people that get cast into hell. If no then don't bother reading any further because it won't help.

Second: It's about a lifestyle. We all fall, we are all sinners, and we are all guilty of death. Should one person think that their "good deeds" are going to get them into heaven as opposed to someone else who doesn't do what they are doing, then they are mistaken. All are saved by grace and not works.

What we don't want to do however is live like we did before we came to Christ. If our brother is in darkness and we neglect to inform them, then they will die but their blood will be upon us. The converse holds true that if we warn them but they do not pay heed, then they shall die, but we shall be delivered because we did that which was asked of us (one of the minor prophets I believe, but I can't recall right now).

If we love our brother, than we will let them know when they are in error, and what the consequence is if they continue in error. No one knows what the end is for any individual besides God, but we all know what the end of sin is.

 

[squint]

Who said we do that? Do we agree that committing adultery is a sin?

On the basis of NOT loving ones neighbor, YES. On the basis of the physical ACT? When was the last time YOU committed adultery IN YOUR HEART...???

You think just because a person doesn't commit the physical ACT that they HAVE NOT SINNED?

When was the last time you THOUGHT about eating PORK? When was the LAST TIME your threw one of your fellow man INTO ETERNAL DEATH in YOUR MIND???

You think the LAW in these regards is some LAUGHING MATTER? I do NOT. And I KNOW what happens in the mind of ALL MANKIND where THE LAW is sown...

SATAN comes in to STEAL LOVE from their hearts...Can you stand under THAT MUCH scriptural honesty? lol and no, I won't be holding my breath for THAT MUCH TRUTH to come from within ANYONE...because of THAT FACT....Liars cannot TELL the truth of these matters.

Am I placed under a burden now because should I break my marriage vows and not repent then I will be subject to Eternal Death?

You have the measure...just because you didn't do the deal does BY NO MEANS mean you DIDN'T...COMMIT ADULTERY...most MALES would be in PERPETUAL REPENTANCE just on this single item...

And sweeping your SINFUL THOUGHTS under the RUG by not 'doing' whatever deal DOESN'T MEAN that you have A SINLESS MIND...nor should anyone be fooled by such EXTERNAL nonsense.

Better to be truthful about the fact that THE RESISTOR comes into a mans HEART and his MIND by the very SOWING of that LAW...and in this way WE ARE ALL PROVEN TO HAVE that working in us, even believers because of our supposedly CLOSE PROXIMITY to GODS WORDS.

I am always surprised at just how utterly DIShonest believers can be about these simple matters, preferring instead to PAINT THEMSELVES up with the most ridiculous PIETY...when inside they are really RAGING HATERS of our felllow man...in their hearts. All the while claiming otherwise. Sure ya are. Yeah, you are the EPITOME of LOVE...to your PORK EATING neighbors...while you LUST after that same meal within and CONDEMN THEM for same...

We place no burden on the sabbath.

Who are you KIDDING? YOU condemn every person on the face of the entire planet as SINNING, CONDEMNED and under the potential of ETERNAL DEATH for not 'doing like you do....'

And I bet you thought more than once about not showing up on Saturday...maybe more times than you even did show up...but of course THAT is no sin for you you you.

I can see why Jesus hated Pharisees...they just DRIP with condemnation, like VENOM from the FANGS...

Keeping the sabbath but living a life of fornication will get you the same results as someone who denies God and never follows a single command: Death, and eternal separation from God.

Well, you just keep justifying what happens in you all you want...and don't forget to paint the outside of that building REAL purty...so it LOOKS good on the outside.

It's all about the heart Squint. God knows there is a difference between those who don't know, and those who willfully choose to live a life in ignorance. The latter is no excuse and will result in one being lost.

You see, that's really the fun part of these discussions. The CONDEMNATION and PROMOTION of eternal death to our neighbors just SPILLS RIGHT OUT into the open for ALL TO SEE...

See Rule #1.

All about heart...what a JOKE! I see what's in your heart...you WEAR condemnation and DEATH on your TONGUE...

s

 

[Stryder06]

On the basis of NOT loving ones neighbor, YES. On the basis of the physical ACT? When was the last time YOU committed adultery IN YOUR HEART...???

You think just because a person doesn't commit the physical ACT that they HAVE NOT SINNED?

When was the last time you THOUGHT about eating PORK? When was the LAST TIME your threw one of your fellow man INTO ETERNAL DEATH in YOUR MIND???

You think the LAW in these regards is some LAUGHING MATTER? I do NOT. And I KNOW what happens in the mind of ALL MANKIND where THE LAW is sown...

SATAN comes in to STEAL LOVE from their hearts...Can you stand under THAT MUCH scriptural honesty? lol and no, I won't be holding my breath for THAT MUCH TRUTH to come from within ANYONE...because of THAT FACT....Liars cannot TELL the truth of these matters.


You have the measure...just because you didn't do the deal does BY NO MEANS mean you DIDN'T...COMMIT ADULTERY...most MALES would be in PERPETUAL REPENTANCE just on this single item...

And sweeping your SINFUL THOUGHTS under the RUG by not 'doing' whatever deal DOESN'T MEAN that you have A SINLESS MIND...nor should anyone be fooled by such EXTERNAL nonsense.

Better to be truthful about the fact that THE RESISTOR comes into a mans HEART and his MIND by the very SOWING of that LAW...and in this way WE ARE ALL PROVEN TO HAVE that working in us, even believers because of our supposedly CLOSE PROXIMITY to GODS WORDS.

I am always surprised at just how utterly DIShonest believers can be about these simple matters, preferring instead to PAINT THEMSELVES up with the most ridiculous PIETY...when inside they are really RAGING HATERS of our felllow man...in their hearts. All the while claiming otherwise. Sure ya are. Yeah, you are the EPITOME of LOVE...to your PORK EATING neighbors...while you LUST after that same meal within and CONDEMN THEM for same...

Wow, you know you're making alot of assumptions here right? My mind is in constant battle and I pray constantly to not fall into temptation or to think thoughts that I should not think.

Jesus is able to keep us from falling, and as such I'm spending more time trying to let my mind be like Christs. So yeah, whenever i talk about sinning, I always include the spirit of the law with the letter, because they kind of go together like that. Not doing the act but thinking about it is just as bad. Christ made that very clear.

Who are you KIDDING? YOU condemn every person on the face of the entire planet as SINNING, CONDEMNED and under the potential of ETERNAL DEATH for not 'doing like you do....'

There you go again with those assumptions.

And I bet you thought more than once about not showing up on Saturday...maybe more times than you even did show up...but of course THAT is no sin for you you you.

I've missed church before. I don't frequently think about it though because I like going to church. For those times that I've missed church due to laziness on my part, I've asked for forgiveness. That's what we do. We try not to fall, but when we do we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. And He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us.

I can see why Jesus hated Pharisees...they just DRIP with condemnation, like VENOM from the FANGS...

Indeed. Not to mention their form of godliness while denying the power thereof.

Well, you just keep justifying what happens in you all you want...and don't forget to paint the outside of that building REAL purty...so it LOOKS good on the outside.

More assumptions. It would seem to me, and please clarify this, that you think either that no one ever has a chance to not sin, or that sinning is acceptable to God.

You see, that's really the fun part of these discussions. The CONDEMNATION and PROMOTION of eternal death to our neighbors just SPILLS RIGHT OUT into the open for ALL TO SEE...

See Rule #1.

All about heart...what a JOKE! I see what's in your heart...you WEAR condemnation and DEATH on your TONGUE...

First, I thought that only God could judge the heart. Second, I don't really know what to tell you, the bible makes it clear that those who repent of their wicked ways will receive life, while those who don't will receive condemnation and death. Now if I'm wrong for repeating what the bible says, and that means, in your book, that all I'm doing is "spouting" condemnation and so forth, than I guess that's how it's got to be.

 

[squint]

Ok, I'm going to make this as simple as I can.

First: Do you believe that there will be people that get cast into hell. If no then don't bother reading any further because it won't help.

I believe ALL VESSELS OF DISHONOR will be TOSSED INTO ETERNAL HELL.

The only difference we have on this mater is the IDENTITY of the VESSELS.

So, do you believe ALL PEOPLE are Gods offspring (see Acts 17:23-29 for a specific reference)

Then YOU TELL ME if God is going to KILL His Own offspring...and I'll brush you off as fast as you brush me.

Second: It's about a lifestyle.

I'm sorry to tell you the truth about things Stryder BUT YOU DO have SIN in your mind...no matter what you show on the OUTSIDE of the cup.

Any believer who cannot stand up to this TRUTH is LIVING A LIE on the inside no matter how 'HOLY' they may appear on the outside of their tomb.

We all fall, we are all sinners, and we are all guilty of death.

Well, thank you for just a little sparrows worth of TRUTH about the fact of SIN...being in ALL...

So I might also ask A SELF CONFESSED SINNER who only sees IN PART what business he has condemning his SINNING NEIGHBORS who do the SAME THINGS you admittedly do to ETERNAL DEATH?

I might say you ascended your throne a tad bit early in the game.

Should one person think that their "good deeds" are going to get them into heaven as opposed to someone else who doesn't do what they are doing, then they are mistaken. All are saved by grace and not works.

What any of these particular terms may 'really be' to any of us is up to much debate. And whatever 'magical religious formulas' have been concocted by MEN to COVER UP and freely FORGIVE their own ADMITTED SINS while simultaneously CONDEMNING other people for theirs is a vast working of FALSEhood to m.

I do KNOW for a fact that PHARISEES BLOCK THE GATES OF HEAVEN TO OTHER people...does that sound just a BIT like what YOU PRACTICE? I am not willing to do what Jesus hated quite frankly.

What we don't want to do however is live like we did before we came to Christ. If our brother is in darkness and we neglect to inform them, then they will die but their blood will be upon us.

IF you were a scientist a few hundred years ago and believed the world was FLAT I'm sure you would have ADAMANTLY insisted that THEY MUST BELIEVE LIKE YOU...

Same principle. You see you are merely IMPOSING your own ILL WILL reflections of these matters upon your fellow man. I already know from those same scriptures that there is ONE OVER RIDING FACTOR that I cannot LET GO OF and claim to be a CHRISTIAN, and that is to LOVE THEM ALL.

You will not find me condemning ANY MAN on ANY BASIS period. And the 'reason' I can't DO THAT is that I know THE DECEIVER is IN THEM...and there is more than likely NOTHING I personally can do about that. It is UP TO GOD to enlighten anyone. I am simply commanded to LOVE THEM anyway...and in this way GOD RAISES UP those slaves and brings them to me JUST TO SEE IF I am 'obedient.' I must also LOVE MY ENEMIES...because of that same WORKING of EVIL in them that is not THEM.

I know you can't see this...and in this way YOU cannot possibly fulfill the command to LOVE them because CONDEMNATION has captured MIND and will not LET YOU do that...no matter HOW HARD you 'think' you might be. You wear your condemnation like a BLACK ROBE...that anyone with half a wit can see. That is in part why the UNSAVED people HATE Pharisees...even they can tell they DRIP with hypocrisy and LIES. I don't blame anyone for FLEEING Pharisees. They are among the most EVIL people on the planet who wear MULTIPLE FACES.

The converse holds true that if we warn them but they do not pay heed, then they shall die, but we shall be delivered because we did that which was asked of us (one of the minor prophets I believe, but I can't recall right now).

Indeed....don't sail yer ship over to the edge...you'll FALL!

What you might realize someday is that whatever religious concoction you have devised IT COULD BE ONLY IN PART...and as such you have NO ABSOLUTE basis upon which to CLAIM ETERNAL DEATH to ANYONE. Common sense tells me this...yet alone scriptures. Your positions don't even make sense. You must say you ONLY SEE IN PART...because that is how WE ALL SEE...

On that basis alone YOU HAVE NO SOLID position to be tossing people to ETERNAL DEATH...you have no SOLID STAND to make those kind of heady interpretations....to your fellow man. Many a respected orthodox/theological scholar BOWS to this fact...(the best ones do!)

If we love our brother, than we will let them know when they are in error, and what the consequence is if they continue in error. No one knows what the end is for any individual besides God, but we all know what the end of sin is.

Look, it's NOT LOVING your neighbors to condemn them to ETERNAL DEATH...that story just doesn't ADD UP...

And you SDA'ers do this to BELIEVERS...no less.

And you wonder why you get the lash?

Your form of love is INSANE. NO, make that EVIL and ILL informed.

enjoy!

s

 

[jarrettcpr]

If Christ said the sabbath was made for man, how can we come to understand that it was only for the Hebrews.

It would seem strange that no one until the Exodus had to keep it, and then no one after the cross would have to keep it. Wouldn't that make God a little capricious? Doesn't He say that He doesn't change?

God also said the Sabbath was given to Israel to show them a bond. It was a covenant between God and the Israelites. We come to understand it was for the Hebrews by reading the Bible.

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” (Exodus 31:12–17)

Also, in Ezekiel it shows us that the Sabbath was given to Israel by God "... Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.... And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God." (Ezekiel 20:12 & 20)


Well God does change... only b/c it was his plan all along. So, one might not really say change.

Here is one example...

"Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deut 19:21)

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, `An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say unto you that ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)

 

[Stryder06]

I believe ALL VESSELS OF DISHONOR will be TOSSED INTO ETERNAL HELL.

The only difference we have on this mater is the IDENTITY of the VESSELS.

So, do you believe ALL PEOPLE are Gods offspring (see Acts 17:23-29 for a specific reference)

Then YOU TELL ME if God is going to KILL His Own offspring...and I'll brush you off as fast as you brush me.



I'm sorry to tell you the truth about things Stryder BUT YOU DO have SIN in your mind...no matter what you show on the OUTSIDE of the cup.

Any believer who cannot stand up to this TRUTH is LIVING A LIE on the inside no matter how 'HOLY' they may appear on the outside of their tomb.



Well, thank you for just a little sparrows worth of TRUTH about the fact of SIN...being in ALL...

So I might also ask A SELF CONFESSED SINNER who only sees IN PART what business he has condemning his SINNING NEIGHBORS who do the SAME THINGS you admittedly do to ETERNAL DEATH?

I might say you ascended your throne a tad bit early in the game.



What any of these particular terms may 'really be' to any of us is up to much debate. And whatever 'magical religious formulas' have been concocted by MEN to COVER UP and freely FORGIVE their own ADMITTED SINS while simultaneously CONDEMNING other people for theirs is a vast working of FALSEhood to m.

I do KNOW for a fact that PHARISEES BLOCK THE GATES OF HEAVEN TO OTHER people...does that sound just a BIT like what YOU PRACTICE? I am not willing to do what Jesus hated quite frankly.



IF you were a scientist a few hundred years ago and believed the world was FLAT I'm sure you would have ADAMANTLY insisted that THEY MUST BELIEVE LIKE YOU...

Same principle. You see you are merely IMPOSING your own ILL WILL reflections of these matters upon your fellow man. I already know from those same scriptures that there is ONE OVER RIDING FACTOR that I cannot LET GO OF and claim to be a CHRISTIAN, and that is to LOVE THEM ALL.

You will not find me condemning ANY MAN on ANY BASIS period. And the 'reason' I can't DO THAT is that I know THE DECEIVER is IN THEM...and there is more than likely NOTHING I personally can do about that. It is UP TO GOD to enlighten anyone. I am simply commanded to LOVE THEM anyway...and in this way GOD RAISES UP those slaves and brings them to me JUST TO SEE IF I am 'obedient.' I must also LOVE MY ENEMIES...because of that same WORKING of EVIL in them that is not THEM.

I know you can't see this...and in this way YOU cannot possibly fulfill the command to LOVE them because CONDEMNATION has captured MIND and will not LET YOU do that...no matter HOW HARD you 'think' you might be. You wear your condemnation like a BLACK ROBE...that anyone with half a wit can see. That is in part why the UNSAVED people HATE Pharisees...even they can tell they DRIP with hypocrisy and LIES. I don't blame anyone for FLEEING Pharisees. They are among the most EVIL people on the planet who wear MULTIPLE FACES.



Indeed....don't sail yer ship over to the edge...you'll FALL!

What you might realize someday is that whatever religious concoction you have devised IT COULD BE ONLY IN PART...and as such you have NO ABSOLUTE basis upon which to CLAIM ETERNAL DEATH to ANYONE. Common sense tells me this...yet alone scriptures. Your positions don't even make sense. You must say you ONLY SEE IN PART...because that is how WE ALL SEE...

On that basis alone YOU HAVE NO SOLID position to be tossing people to ETERNAL DEATH...you have no SOLID STAND to make those kind of heady interpretations....to your fellow man. Many a respected orthodox/theological scholar BOWS to this fact...(the best ones do!)



Look, it's NOT LOVING your neighbors to condemn them to ETERNAL DEATH...that story just doesn't ADD UP...

And you SDA'ers do this to BELIEVERS...no less.

And you wonder why you get the lash?

Your form of love is INSANE. NO, make that EVIL and ILL informed.

enjoy!

s

More assumptions and a lot of confusion. Let's see if we can't clear the air.

First, I know I have sin in me and in my mind, or else I wouldn't have anything to fight against. But that's the thing. I'm fighting against it so that it does not have a hold over me.

Second, I never said we aren't to love everyone.

Third, I'm not brushing you off, I'm simply a little too tired to have you tell me about myself and about my mind, etc. I know what sin is and how it is in all of us and how it affects us. I also know that the bible says let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus...Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. So yeah, we'll miss the mark, but that doesn't mean we're not suppose to try.

Fourth, I love my neighbors, and I will speak to them and tell them what I understand the bible to say in regards to salvation and in regards to condemnation.

Lastly, it's not about what I do or did, or how I believe, but what Christ did, and how He taught us to believe. Christ leads all into truth. Damnation is for those who reject that truth.

 

[Stryder06]

God also said the Sabbath was given to Israel to show them a bond. It was a covenant between God and the Israelites. We come to understand it was for the Hebrews by reading the Bible.

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” (Exodus 31:12–17)

Also, in Ezekiel it shows us that the Sabbath was given to Israel by God "... Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.... And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God." (Ezekiel 20:12 & 20)

Aren't we now spiritual Israel? Paul talks about being a Jew inwardly in Romans I believe. The promise was made to Abraham and yet we are His seed, not through the flesh but through the Spirit.

Well God does change... only b/c it was his plan all along. So, one might not really say change.

Here is one example...

"Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deut 19:21)

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, `An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say unto you that ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)

God doesn't change, instead He makes provision, and as you said, moves on with His plan, so it's never change. It goes from the way it's suppose to be, to the way it has to be because of the hardness of man's heart.

 

[squint]

Wow, you know you're making alot of assumptions here right? My mind is in constant battle and I pray constantly to not fall into temptation or to think thoughts that I should not think.

Well, again, thank you for a sparrows worth of BREAD truth.

You do understand then the PRINCIPLE that Jesus taught us all about WHERE the Word is sown, SATAN does enter.

NOW, where you may ONLY BLAME YOURSELF as Gods child, I DO NOT because JESUS showed me the PRINCIPLE that is involved in these matters.

I have NO NEED to blame ME or to blame YOU as Gods child for THAT WORKING because 'it COMES WITH THE TERRITORY.' I know the DIFFERENCE. I am not wrestling with MYSELF in my OWN HEAD. I have a resisting POWER that God has ALLOWED in there with me...to bring those SINNING THOUGHTS...It is there that I STAKE my battles. Internally.

What YOU want to do is to JUDGE where that working has SPILLED OUT into the DEED arena and to CONDEMN them...but that is ONLY the final result of a SLAVE showing what happened on the INSIDE...

NONE of this means that what happened on the INSIDE is ANY LESS THE SIN...

Don't you understand this? Seriously?

Jesus is able to keep us from falling,

NO, you have not been given A FREE TICKET to A SINLESS MIND my friend. Jesus did not spare YOU from that suffering and SIN IN MIND is just as DIRE as SIN IN DEED.

God Himself has BOUND US to 'disobedience.' (Romans 11:32) And He did so with VERY EXACT PURPOSES as spelled out therein.

Any person who claims to be FREE from that binding is A LIAR. Paul openly admitted that EVIL was present with him. (Romans 7:17-21) I can certainly claim NO LESS. BUT I do now that I am not the SAME AS that which I am 'bound' with...and therein IF I have any freedom, it is by Disassociation. Let everyone who names His Name unto themselves DEPART from iniquity....The only place I can find departing is in DIVISION.

This is the SWORD that Jesus brings us...to DIVIDE us from our SINS.

That disobedience is IN MIND as that is where it starts and it is also OF THE DEVIL. Woe to THAT ONE by which SIN comes!

and as such I'm spending more time trying to let my mind be like Christs. So yeah, whenever i talk about sinning, I always include the spirit of the law with the letter, because they kind of go together like that. Not doing the act but thinking about it is just as bad. Christ made that very clear.

And THANK YOU AGAIN...I just LOVE a person, especially a BELIEVER who is HONEST about these matters.

See how EASY the YOKE OF HONESTY is? IF a man is HONEST within it is CLEANLINESS within...to simply ADMIT the fact...

This does NOT mean I want to HEAR the particulars of ANY WORK OF THE DEVIL in a mans MIND, to give that working GLORY...Never! It is fact enough to COME CLEAN that it happens...

You do understand that in that ONE DOES supposedly and progressively by GODS LOVE come to understand and to FIGHT against that within... I can tell you as you age in the Lord those battles in some ways begin to reside as the fruit of LOVE comes to bloom within and God gives us the RETURN on our life in that way.

I've missed church before. I don't frequently think about it though because I like going to church. For those times that I've missed church due to laziness on my part, I've asked for forgiveness. That's what we do. We try not to fall, but when we do we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. And He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us.

Well, like I said, many groups sell indulgences of various forms...but FEW are honest enough about the FACTS, yet alone to give their fellow man who remain SLAVES the benefit of the same RELIEF they so easily give themselves. Sad but TRUE as well.

More assumptions. It would seem to me, and please clarify this, that you think either that no one ever has a chance to not sin, or that sinning is acceptable to God.

Stryder...please just do a LITTLE honest math here...with me.

IF we see IN PART, which we ALL know we do..ONLY IN PART...

We must see that SOME WORD has been stolen from us OR we'd SEE IN FULL, right?

So IF Satan DOES enter to STEAL, as Jesus TOLD us satan does...hasn't A THEFT, being SIN, already occurred in that person who SEES IN PART? And isn't that a SIN that transpired IN THEM quite SEPARATE from the PERSON...??? Please tell me you can see this simplicity?

So, no...NO ONE is going to be proven apart from the presence of INDWELLING SIN...and NO ONE is going to be able to say I HAVE NOT SINNED...Sin is PRESENT...and SINNING is PAST.

When we understand that 'we' are NOT the only party involved, it becomes vastly more difficult to BLAME THE BLINDED CAPTIVE and when we 'see' that working in ourselves, the BATTLE will turn WITHIN...within the HEART...

The VICTORY is to FULFILL THE ENTIRETY OF THE LAW within ourselves. We do not DO THAT by abstaining from eating PORK or attending church on SATURDAY...

WE GAIN THE ENTIRE VICTORY when we LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS as ourselves. This is the MOST that we can do under either LAW or under GRACE. BOTH LAW AND GRACE will PERFECTLY align to THIS CONCLUSION.

First, I thought that only God could judge the heart.

God has already judged the hearts...they are DECEIPTFULLY WICKED and they are so by THE ENTRANCE of the THIEF, Satan. I can't in honesty blame any man with THAT FACT in mind. I just can't get there. That man is A SLAVE...And when I EVEN THINK a sinning thought, that presence PROVES itself in me as well. I just can't honestly condemn another person for what also works IN me. It's just HYPOCRISY to do that.

Second, I don't really know what to tell you, the bible makes it clear that those who repent of their wicked ways will receive life, while those who don't will receive condemnation and death.

Again we'll divide on terms. I REPENTED or CHANGED MY MIND on these matters. I am NOT the same as the disobedience that tries to make me SUFFER. I refuse to be IT'S SLAVE. Therein is my form of repentance.

IF you are YOUR ONLY ENEMY you have no place TO DIVIDE...you cannot 'escape' yourself. It's not possible. But you CAN come to know that those wicked thoughts ARE NOT YOURS as Gods child...and therein is the beginning of LIGHT. To know the DIFFERNCE between GOOD...(Gods children) and EVIL (children of the DEVIL in the minds of mankind including ourselves.)

There the SWORD makes a GOOD CLEAN PRECISE cut within...and in that way A MAN IS ALSO CIRCUMSIZED within. You have CLEANSED yourself from that working because YOU KNOW it's NOT YOU.

Now if I'm wrong for repeating what the bible says, and that means, in your book, that all I'm doing is "spouting" condemnation and so forth, than I guess that's how it's got to be.

It's got to be that way for SLAVES of evil. They have no choice but to spout condemnation and death to those we are to love. That is 'how' I know my brothers from the others.

I am a fisher of men...but I throw the BAD ONES out for trash. I also know TWO KINDS OF FISH come up in my net.

enjoy!

squint

 

[jarrettcpr]

Aren't we now spiritual Israel? Paul talks about being a Jew inwardly in Romans I believe. The promise was made to Abraham and yet we are His seed, not through the flesh but through the Spirit.



God doesn't change, instead He makes provision, and as you said, moves on with His plan, so it's never change. It goes from the way it's suppose to be, to the way it has to be because of the hardness of man's heart.

As I said it was part of his plan all along and as you said God makes provisions. Though at the same time it is a 'change'. We both know it. God clearly says eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth (in the OT). But now (in the NT) God says show mercy, and don't do what I said previously any longer (eye for an eye). It doesn't change any more than that.

I can now argue that the Sabbath has also changed though I call it a transformation. I view the Sabbath differently than Sabbatarians. Christ Jesus is my Sabbath. For he is the Lord of the Sabbath and my rest is in him.

 

[CalmRon]

God also said the Sabbath was given to Israel to show them a bond. It was a covenant between God and the Israelites. We come to understand it was for the Hebrews by reading the Bible.

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” (Exodus 31:12–17)

Also, in Ezekiel it shows us that the Sabbath was given to Israel by God "... Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.... And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God." (Ezekiel 20:12 & 20)


Well God does change... only b/c it was his plan all along. So, one might not really say change.

Here is one example...

"Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deut 19:21)

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, `An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say unto you that ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:38-39)

to say this is like saying God has two sets of standards- one for jews and one for gentiles. do you not realize that church is part of God's chosen people? if its wrong for the anyone to murder whether in word or deed and no one dares disagree, why is it that the mark of true worship and seal of the creator's authority is spit upon? (I am speaking to myself as much as anyone)
why is it we curse the sabbath and in many cases those who worship the sabbath and denounce those who love God as heretic or God forbid obedient. stryder said it himself, legalism is a heart attitude. the old testament (just as valid today as the new) speak of God delighting in those outside of israel who bound themselves to God and kept his sabbath (Isaiah 56.)

in response to what you said about God changing: "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. Malachi 3:6

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17

God neither changes in character or in how he deals with men. the men of the old testament were to live by faith as the men of the new testament and we who live now are to live by faith. see the those who were the true Israel of God were those who held to the faith of abraham those who looked to the promised seed- whether they were of Israel or not and we now who are of the church look back in faith in the promised seed who came and will come again. another interesting thing comes into mind when speaking of the faith of abraham his faith was coupled with action- he acted in faith in james its says the profession of faith without works is dead just one cannot justify himself with works but only with the grace of God. I say this to let you know that faith is more complex than some profession we make at one point our live or even throughout our lives; we must bear fruit in accordance with the grace given us. in romans paul spoke of the jews as a nation not being able to fulfill what God had for them but that the Gentiles were given this chance- he mention that they were given a law of righteousness but did not pursue it by faith but as if it were by works. in another place in romans he speaks that a man is a jew if he is one inwardly circumcised of heart and still in another place speaks of gentiles being grafted into the olive tree of salvation- these all serve to illustrate that gentiles and Jews were spiritual israel in christ; when you said that sabbath were a perpetual sign between god and the children of israel, you are right in the sense that israel is much more than a nation it is the bodied of those who believe and are sanctified of God in the old testament and new testament and today.

you also misunderstood the reason God came off as so ruthless to the canaanites in the old testament- they were clearly being judged by God to wicked nations who piled up God's wrath for themselves. when one looks at the account of sodom and Gommorah God though he knows the hearts of men went in person to the city to see whether or not the reports of their activity were true; this shows that he is a fair judge. another way to look at the seeming unjust treatment of the surrounding nations was that God was protecting the bloodline within the holy nation through which the seed of promise was going to come.(jesus) as well as to remind us how much God hates sin. it also serves to remind us that as christians even today we are to be a peculiar people( again I am speaking to myself as well)