Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[Angelquill]

I have no idea what you mean by "Does the relationship catholic/protestant bring anything to mind?" And I think that you might try avoiding accusing me of this or that simply because I am a Catholic.

Then you have forgotten "church tradition".
Catholics traditionally do not like "Protties" (isn't that what you guys call them?)...and vice versa.
Hopefully, that is dying, now...let's not resuscitate it, shall we?

No one is accusing you of anything "simply because you are a Catholic". All we are telling you is that we do not recognize your church's right to define what is and what isn't heresy.
Don't take it so personally.

 

[Angelquill]

Indeed.

So much for gut feelings.

If you are going to put words in my mouth, at least make them accurate.
I said my heart was very much in my faith...not my stomach.
Do you need an anatomy lesson?

 

[Targaryen]

Then you have forgotten "church tradition".
Catholics traditionally do not like "Protties" (isn't that what you guys call them?)...and vice versa.
Hopefully, that is dying, now...let's not resuscitate it, shall we?

No one is accusing you of anything "simply because you are a Catholic". All we are telling you is that we do not recognize your church's right to define what is and what isn't heresy.
Don't take it so personally.

Considering that I'm a Catholic by the Anglican rite....I find your slur of the word Protestant in reference to those that are Protestant and this anti-Catholic type jag you seem to be on in regards to your ideas being criticized, not only completely out of taste but totally irrelevant for the threads topic.

Seems you need a great deal more of this tolerance you are claiming that others are requiring, which is NOT the case.

Shall you actually deal with the topic's points now, or are you going to continue on with this degradation of others on CF?

 

[Angelquill]

I agree, we should not base this on Gut Feelings, but on Scripture.

Mark the blameless and behold the upright,
for there is a future for the man of peace.
But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
the future of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:37-38

My "gut feeling" is that we should believe what the Bible says instead of an empty tradition that claims that transgressors will not be destroyed but they will instead be preserved forever in hell so that they can be tormented forever. Which is something the Bible never says. But sometimes established traditions win out over truth, for a while...

You mean, you feel that in your heart?

 

[Angelquill]

Still going on your own "gut" there as well, based on your own interpretation of scripture.

0-2...who's next?

Heart, Darling...
That's heart.
Do keep up.

 

[Angelquill]

Who said anything about literal fire? Might be good to bone up on the Orthodox view. We see God's love upon those who hate him "as a" consuming fire.

Perhaps it is that word "consuming" that is the problem.
I mean, are you guys using some kind of "ortho-dictionary" to match your "ortho-wiki"??

 

[Angelquill]

Considering that I'm a Catholic by the Anglican rite....I find your slur of the word Protestant in reference to those that are Protestant and this anti-Catholic type jag you seem to be on in regards to your ideas being criticized, not only completely out of taste but totally irrelevant for the threads topic.

Seems you need a great deal more of this tolerance you are claiming that others are requiring, which is NOT the case.

Shall you actually deal with the topic's points now, or are you going to continue on with this degradation of others on CF?

I'm not anti-anybody.
I am anti-bullying, however.
I don't mind my ideas being criticized, everyone has the right to their own pov.

I have very little tolerance for bullies of any stripe, especially bullies who hide behind their faith to do it.

I would much rather deal with the topic's points with reference to the scriptures...not what some denomination teaches.

Typically, bullies do not like it when someone stands up to them. They are too used to being the kings of the playground.

 

[Targaryen]

I'm not anti-anybody.
I am anti-bullying, however.
I don't mind my ideas being criticized, everyone has the right to their own pov.


I have very little tolerance for bullies of any stripe, especially bullies who hide behind their faith to do it.

Right...you use a slur as a way of an anti-catholic type of biased arguing over the topic addressed and then get on the anti bullying bus.

I call that absolute cow flop.

I would much rather deal with the topic's points with reference to the scriptures...not what some denomination teaches.

Typically, bullies do not like it when someone stands up to them. They are too used to being the kings of the playground.

Only one using bullying language and tone is you...let's now get to the POINT...in case you still aren't aware

Considering that the topic you are defending got moved for being unorthodox. That alone should tell you that the point your trying to defend and have come across as orthodox and in the vein of the scriptures is wrong.

Yes I know, it hurts knowing that annhilationism is not biblically sound or in line with the Creeds, but it's not...and the more you try to defend that point as being sound and orthodox, relying on "gut feelings" or a misinterpreted viewing of Scripture does not help you out either.

 

[seeingeyes]

71 pages now, and I'm still no one can give an official statement about the heretical nature of various views of hell.

Since we've been kicked to UDD at this point, I'll chalk that up as a win.

 

[James Is Back]

I was wondering when this was going to be moved to the UDD. I'm surprised that it lasted that long in GT.

 

[James Is Back]

Who said anything about literal fire? Might be good to bone up on the Orthodox view. We see God's love upon those who hate him "as a" consuming fire.

Just out of curiosity MK you don't believe in a literal fire in the LOF?

And I hope you and Coffee stick around. I don't want to be the only one around here defending eternal torment to the annihilation believers

 

[shturt678s]

There is not enough money on earth to convince me that a good-hearted, loving person, like granny down the road, is going to suffer for eternity for simple unbelief.
The WICKED now is another story. Just what REALLY would warrant such a cook-out?

Case in point. Shacrach, Meschak and Abed-Nego. Ole Neb was CRUEL to sent those three Hebrew children for not worshiping him. I have ALWAYS thought it a half a bubble out of plumb to think God would do the same thing.

In brief, one first has to 'bump' into enough truth of the Word from God's view in heaven then reject for whatever reason in order to be charged with dis-belief.

Secondly partying out then just turn into dust at one's end is exponentially extrememly different than immediately awaking in conscious torments looking forward to be tormented inwardly and externally forever and ever in one's new glorified body at the end of time.

Lastly the purpose for "hell" is again "Punishment, Matt.13:41b" (parabolic language and needs to be undressed of course). Their entrapments as well as they themselves shall be finally and completely gathered up out of the Kingdom they have HELPED DISTRESS. "Matt.13:42, "and shall throw them into the furnace of the fire....wailing and gnashing of teeth" PRETTY FOREVER PUNISHING!!!

Old Jack's opinion

 

[MoreCoffee]

Don't you think that you are switching things up a little bit? We agree that there is eternal punishment, but eternal punishment is not the same thing as eternal torment. You can't say "The Bible says that there is eternal punishment, so that means there is eternal torment".

If you want to affirm what Jesus said about Gehenna, He didn't say that the wicked are eternally tormented in Gehenna, he said that the body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna. See Matthew 10:28.

Can you show me where Jesus ever said that the wicked are eternally tormented in Gehenna? I'm sure that you won't.

It seems to me that Jesus said eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46 and John says "the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever" so it doesn't look like too much of a stretch to think that the punishment and torment for ever and ever are about the same people experiencing the same thing. The language of scripture appears to support the notion of eternal torment even though that is not the language I've used except in reply to those of you who are arguing for annihilationism. The posts that almost uniformly characterise what I believe as "eternal torment" are from the people supporting annihilationism. My own usage has been everlasting punishment.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

I am not going to get sidetracked. What's Matthew 25:46 about?
​

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

Well, it certainly doesn't mean that x view of hell is orthodox while the rest are heretical.
​

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

The mere fact that one believes a condemned error does not make one a heretic and hence does not mean one is hell bound.
​

Originally Posted by By Faith Alone

Who decides what is condemned? A council?

Nothing but bugs under a board.
​

Originally Posted by shturt678s

No not really, however question finally down to my lower paygrade....the Word is the judge of every dis-believer....Jn.12:48a.

Old Jack's opinion at the bottom of the pecking order.
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

At least yer honest
​

Christians and non are so corrupt over here, I've been telling others for decades that all they have to do is be honest at their business, daily activities, and Church then you'll need me to count your money at the end of the day forever and ever....well maybe not me...not known for my counting skills, ie, a blinding fire fly of light in absolute cave darkness.

Sadly there's too much truth to the former slight exaggeration.

Old Jack's opinion...sorry getting carried away.

I thank our Lord for opening my eyes a little more....now I understand why most don't put much time in during the week regarding their forever home due to if they don't make it...just turn to dust with no punishment forever and ever and ever and ever, ie, can have Jesus + the world having their bases covered partying out....deception after deception..... awaking in hell is a forever and ever condition in torments inwardly and outwardly at the last day for sure...without any doubts.

btw if MC is the quality coffee drinker that I think he is...he cannot be in error regarding his view.

I laughed so hard at this, my heart almost stopped.....




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And to think I slept so well...

Look, you misunderstood me. I tried to tell you that the Catholic church no longer has the authority to tell people outside of the church what is heresy and what is not. It is not the Middle Ages any more...at least not among the rest of Christendom.

I believe that I said that I have a great deal of respect for the pope, and I think he's a great guy, and all that, but that I do not recognize his authority over me at all.

You may accurately present what your church teaches all you like, that's your business...and my attitude is going to be "so what"?

I have nothing whatsoever against the Catholic church...well, except for some of your history. I would do anything to avoid giving you back the authority that you once had. You would only abuse it again, as you have proven.

Now, individual Catholics are quite a different story. In fact one of my best friends teaches Catholic school up in Pennsylvania. She is a great lady. We don't always agree, but she is okay with that, and so am I.

Not all of you think that your church tradition is the end all and be all of everyone else's faith.

Oh, and one of the things that I admire so much about her is that her heart is also very much in her faith. She is a very kind and caring lady, who goes out of her way for others at every opportunity. She is everything a Christian ought to be, without being obnoxious about it. We could all, Catholic or not, learn from her.

Yes, I agree with Faith Alone about a few things, one of which is Catholic bullying. I will not submit to it, either. I know you don't like that, and I'm sorry. That's just the way it is.

Nothing against you personally...I just don't like bullies. I'm "speaking up"...

And...good morning. I do hope you have a pleasant day.

I highlighted the words you used to personalise your response. I did it to show how your posts fail to differentiate the person from the organisation and from the doctrine and from the facts. It is the persistent personalisation present in your posts that adds to their egregiousness. I haven't bothered to count the number of direct or implied personal insults in the above quote but if anything is bullying it is what's written in the quote above. Basically all I see is that whatever I have to say is rubbish and will be ignored because I am a Catholic. It's pretty self evident that such is the case from the way this thread has moved from some interesting discussion about both scripture and church teaching to the above style of post.

Like Mama Kidigo I am un-subscribing from this thread once I finish replying to the current crop of posts.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you, can you stick around and continue the discussion, even though the thread has been moved to UDD? The Bible is true whether we discuss it in GT or UDD. CF's distinctions are irrelevant to God's Word.

I agree with Mama Kidigo that your posts have, for the most part, been polite and stuck with the content of your interlocutor's posts. That's appreciated, Thanks for your work. I do not share your beliefs and have not been convinced by what you've written but I go away with a fairly positive impression of your conduct in the discussion.

 

[Targaryen]

Just out of curiosity MK you don't believe in a literal fire in the LOF?

And I hope you and Coffee stick around. I don't want to be the only one around here defending eternal torment to the annihilation believers

You'd be better off just moving on man. For your own health.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I highlighted the words you used to personalise your response. I did it to show how your posts fail to differentiate the person from the organisation and from the doctrine and from the facts. It is the persistent personalisation present in your posts that adds to their egregiousness. I haven't bothered to count the number of direct or implied personal insults in the above quote but if anything is bullying it is what's written in the quote above. Basically all I see is that whatever I have to say is rubbish and will be ignored because I am a Catholic.
It's pretty self evident that such is the case from the way this thread has moved from some interesting discussion about both scripture and church teaching to the above style of post.

Like Mama Kidigo I am un-subscribing from this thread once I finish replying to the current crop of posts.

And you just did that yourself, a personalized response.

If either of you feel a CF rule has been broken by a member, just report it.
Don't squabble about it in a public thread.
Thanks you.

 

[James Is Back]

Well I'm going to bail out of this thread myself. The ping pong match has gotten boring and I have nothing further to add what hasn't been said.

It was nice debating with some of you though. Chow!

 

[shturt678s]

I laughed so hard at this, my heart almost stopped.....




.

Wait till you learn to lol at oneself's stupidity + others like I continually do at my ignorance, stupidity, and my "hope nobody seen or read that" moments...heart does stop where my defibber kicks it back in.

Old Jack's opinion

btw MC's coffee keeps my heart sinus....amazing grace.