Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee, you've given me more to respond to than anyone possibly can. Let's take this one bite at a time.

Let's talk about the Greek word that is translated '"Destroy" in Matthew 10:28. That seems relevant. If the Body and Soul are destroyed in Gehenna, then they are not tormented alive forever in Gehenna. Agreed? But if the word that is translated as "destroyed" doesn't mean destroyed, then it is possible that they might not be destroyed, but instead kept forever in torment.

The Greek word in question is ἀπολέσαι. We can see the very same word used in another verse, Matthew 2:13. Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”

μέλλει γὰρ Ἡρῴδης ζητεῖν τὸ παιδίον τοῦ ἀπολέσαι αὐτό.

So is it possible that apolesai doesn't mean kill or destroy in Matthew 2:13? If it doesn't, how do you read Matthew 2:13? Did Herod intend to imprison Jesus? Torture Him? Lose him? No, I think we all agree that Herod's intention was to kill Jesus, and that is what apolesai means. to kill or destroy. The claim that apolesai doesn't mean destroy is simply false.

Okay, the word in Matthew 10:28 is απολεσαι

Theyer defines the root thus.
apollumi

Definition:

1) to destroy

1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed​

2) to destroy

2a) to lose​

Part of Speech: verb​

The Complete Word Study Dictionary defines the root word thus.
apóllumi or apolúō;

fut. apolésō, 2d aor. apōlómēn, perf. apolṓleka, 2d perf. apólōla, mid. fut. apoloúmai, from apó (G575) an intens., the mid. óllumi (n.f.), to destroy. The force of apó here is away or wholly; therefore, the verb is stronger than the simple óllumi. To destroy, mid. be destroyed, perish. Also from óllumi (n.f.): ólethros (G3639), rain, destruction.​

(I) Act. form:

(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.: (1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co 1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa 29:14). (2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish.

(a) Spoken of physical death (Mat 2:13; Mat 12:14; Mat 21:41; Mat 22:7; Mar 3:6; Mar 9:22; Mar 11:18; Mar 12:9; Luk 6:9 [TR]; Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29; Luk 19:47; Luk 20:16; Joh 10:10; Jud 1:5; Sept.: Gen 20:4; Deu 11:4; Est 4:9; Est 9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat 27:20; Jas 4:12).

(b) Spoken of eternal death, i.e., future punishment, exclusion from the Messiah's kingdom. In this sense it has the same meaning as apothnḗskō (G599), to die (Mat 10:28; Mar 1:24; Luk 4:34; Luk 9:56). This eternal death is called the second death (Rev 20:14). In Luk 9:25, to "destroy himself" (a.t.) means to subject himself to eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life (Joh 6:50-51, Joh 6:58). Physical and eternal death are to be distinguished (Joh 8:21, Joh 8:24; Joh 11:25-26; Rom 7:10; Rom 8:13).

(B) To lose, be deprived of, trans. of such things as reward (Mar 9:41); a sheep (Luk 15:4); a drachma or coin (Luk 15:8-9). See Joh 6:39; 2Jn 1:8; Sept.: Pro 29:3. To lose one's life or soul (Mat 10:39; Mat 16:25; Mar 8:35; Luk 9:24; Luk 17:33; Joh 12:25).​

(II) Mid. and pass. forms as also 2d perf. apólōla.

(A) To be destroyed, perish, intrans. Spoken of: (1) Things (Mat 5:29-30; Mat 9:17; Mar 2:22; Luk 5:37; Joh 6:27; Jas 1:11; 1Pe 1:7). In all these instances the verb must not be thought of as indicating extinction, but only change from one state of being to another. Nothing actually becomes extinct, but everything changes. In Heb 1:11, "even these heavens will perish" (a.t.) quoted from Psa 102:27; Jer 9:11; Jer 48:8; Eze 29:8; Eze 35:7, means that these present heavens will be qualitatively changed as well as the earth (Rev 21:1). The new, redeemed creation and physically redeemed creatures, especially the presently redeemed men with their redeemed bodies, will have a congruous environment in which to live (Rom 8:19-23). (2) Persons, to be put to death, to die, perish, relating to physical death (Mat 8:25; Mat 26:52; Mar 4:38; Luk 8:24; Luk 11:51; Luk 13:33; Luk 15:17; Joh 18:14; Act 5:37; 1Co 10:9-10; 2Co 4:9; 2Pe 3:6; Jud 1:11; Sept.: Lev 23:30; Est 9:12). Relating to eternal death (see I, A, 2, b), to perish eternally, i.e., to be deprived of eternal life (Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5; Joh 3:15-16; Joh 10:28; Joh 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1Co 15:18; 2Pe 3:9). Those who perish (hoi apolluménoi, who are perishing) means those who are exposed to eternal death (1Co 1:18; 2Co 2:15; 2Co 4:3; 2Th 2:10).

(B) To be lost to the owner, such as hair (Luk 21:18), anything (Joh 6:12). Spoken of those who wander away and are lost, e.g., the prodigal son (Luk 15:24); sheep straying in the desert (Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6). Metaphorically (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Sept.: Psa 119:176; Jer 50:6; Eze 34:4).​

Deriv.: Apollúōn (G623), destroyer; apṓleia (G684), destruction; sunapóllumi (G4881), to destroy with.

Syn.: katargéō (G2673), abolish; kathairéō (G2507), to cast down; lúō (G3089), to loose; katalúō (G2647), to destroy utterly; olothreúō (G2645), to destroy; exolothreúō (G1842), to destroy utterly; phtheírō (G5351), to corrupt; porthéō (G4199), to ruin by laying waste, to make havoc; thnḗskō (G2348), to die; apothnḗskō (G599), to die off or out; teleutáō (G5053), to end, to die; apogínomai (G581), to die, to become something else.

Ant.: auxánō (G837), to increase; záō (G2198), to live; zōogonéō (G2225), to become alive, quicken; kerdaínō (G2770), to gain; ōpheléō (G5623), to profit; prokóptō (G4298), to advance.​

These give lexical meanings and offer context in terms of the usages of the word in similar passages and of synonyms in other passages. Note the red text deals specifically with the definition in Matthew 10:28. Note also that "annihilation" is not offered as a viable meaning for the Greek word in question.

 

[Timothew]

Okay, the word in Matthew 10:28 is απολεσαι

Theyer defines the root thus.
apollumi

Definition:

1) to destroy

1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed​

2) to destroy

2a) to lose​

Part of Speech: verb​

The Complete Word Study Dictionary defines the root word thus.
apóllumi or apolúō;

fut. apolésō, 2d aor. apōlómēn, perf. apolṓleka, 2d perf. apólōla, mid. fut. apoloúmai, from apó (G575) an intens., the mid. óllumi (n.f.), to destroy. The force of apó here is away or wholly; therefore, the verb is stronger than the simple óllumi. To destroy, mid. be destroyed, perish. Also from óllumi (n.f.): ólethros (G3639), rain, destruction.​

(I) Act. form:

(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.: (1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co 1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa 29:14). (2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish.

(a) Spoken of physical death (Mat 2:13; Mat 12:14; Mat 21:41; Mat 22:7; Mar 3:6; Mar 9:22; Mar 11:18; Mar 12:9; Luk 6:9 [TR]; Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29; Luk 19:47; Luk 20:16; Joh 10:10; Jud 1:5; Sept.: Gen 20:4; Deu 11:4; Est 4:9; Est 9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat 27:20; Jas 4:12).

(b) Spoken of eternal death, i.e., future punishment, exclusion from the Messiah's kingdom. In this sense it has the same meaning as apothnḗskō (G599), to die (Mat 10:28; Mar 1:24; Luk 4:34; Luk 9:56). This eternal death is called the second death (Rev 20:14). In Luk 9:25, to "destroy himself" (a.t.) means to subject himself to eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life (Joh 6:50-51, Joh 6:58). Physical and eternal death are to be distinguished (Joh 8:21, Joh 8:24; Joh 11:25-26; Rom 7:10; Rom 8:13).

(B) To lose, be deprived of, trans. of such things as reward (Mar 9:41); a sheep (Luk 15:4); a drachma or coin (Luk 15:8-9). See Joh 6:39; 2Jn 1:8; Sept.: Pro 29:3. To lose one's life or soul (Mat 10:39; Mat 16:25; Mar 8:35; Luk 9:24; Luk 17:33; Joh 12:25).​

(II) Mid. and pass. forms as also 2d perf. apólōla.

(A) To be destroyed, perish, intrans. Spoken of: (1) Things (Mat 5:29-30; Mat 9:17; Mar 2:22; Luk 5:37; Joh 6:27; Jas 1:11; 1Pe 1:7). In all these instances the verb must not be thought of as indicating extinction, but only change from one state of being to another. Nothing actually becomes extinct, but everything changes. In Heb 1:11, "even these heavens will perish" (a.t.) quoted from Psa 102:27; Jer 9:11; Jer 48:8; Eze 29:8; Eze 35:7, means that these present heavens will be qualitatively changed as well as the earth (Rev 21:1). The new, redeemed creation and physically redeemed creatures, especially the presently redeemed men with their redeemed bodies, will have a congruous environment in which to live (Rom 8:19-23). (2) Persons, to be put to death, to die, perish, relating to physical death (Mat 8:25; Mat 26:52; Mar 4:38; Luk 8:24; Luk 11:51; Luk 13:33; Luk 15:17; Joh 18:14; Act 5:37; 1Co 10:9-10; 2Co 4:9; 2Pe 3:6; Jud 1:11; Sept.: Lev 23:30; Est 9:12). Relating to eternal death (see I, A, 2, b), to perish eternally, i.e., to be deprived of eternal life (Luk 13:3, Luk 13:5; Joh 3:15-16; Joh 10:28; Joh 17:12; Rom 2:12; 1Co 15:18; 2Pe 3:9). Those who perish (hoi apolluménoi, who are perishing) means those who are exposed to eternal death (1Co 1:18; 2Co 2:15; 2Co 4:3; 2Th 2:10).

(B) To be lost to the owner, such as hair (Luk 21:18), anything (Joh 6:12). Spoken of those who wander away and are lost, e.g., the prodigal son (Luk 15:24); sheep straying in the desert (Luk 15:4, Luk 15:6). Metaphorically (Mat 10:6; Mat 15:24; Sept.: Psa 119:176; Jer 50:6; Eze 34:4).​

Deriv.: Apollúōn (G623), destroyer; apṓleia (G684), destruction; sunapóllumi (G4881), to destroy with.

Syn.: katargéō (G2673), abolish; kathairéō (G2507), to cast down; lúō (G3089), to loose; katalúō (G2647), to destroy utterly; olothreúō (G2645), to destroy; exolothreúō (G1842), to destroy utterly; phtheírō (G5351), to corrupt; porthéō (G4199), to ruin by laying waste, to make havoc; thnḗskō (G2348), to die; apothnḗskō (G599), to die off or out; teleutáō (G5053), to end, to die; apogínomai (G581), to die, to become something else.

Ant.: auxánō (G837), to increase; záō (G2198), to live; zōogonéō (G2225), to become alive, quicken; kerdaínō (G2770), to gain; ōpheléō (G5623), to profit; prokóptō (G4298), to advance.​

These give lexical meanings and offer context in terms of the usages of the word in similar passages and of synonyms in other passages. Note the red text deals specifically with the definition in Matthew 10:28. Note also that "annihilation" is not offered as a viable meaning for the Greek word in question.

You didn't mention it's use in Matthew 2:13, I think that is relevant to the discussion. I've already seen and studied the definition. And you can see from the definition that actually does mean destruction. But what about the words usage in Matthew 2:13?

Annihilate is merely a synonym for destroy. I never said that that Matthew 10:28 says that the lost are annihilated, it says to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Please don't move the goalposts. It was never my doctrine that the lost are annihilated but not destroyed.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Glad you brought that up. There just happens to be a thread on that:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?
.

Thx Bro but I already know. Gehenna is an EARTHLY judgment. The VISIBLE hell. The valley of the Sons of Hinnom. Ananias and Sapphira were just a TASTE of that era to come. Jesus Christ, as King over Israel, will be judge, jury and executioner and judgment will not be relegated to the hands of man.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm just talking about what the Bible says. Surely that can't be against the rules.

We were discussing whether or not we should believe Psalm 37:38 and Matthew 10:28.
I think that we should believe these verses and the entire Bible.

Luk 24:
44 and He said to them, "these are the words that I spake unto you, being yet with you,
that it behoveth to be fulfilled all the things that are written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, about Me.'
5 Then opened He up their understanding to understand the Writings,
46 and He said to them -- 'Thus it hath been written, and thus it was behoving the Christ to suffer, and to rise out of the dead the third day,




.

 

[Timothew]

Luk 24:
44 and He said to them, "these are the words that I spake unto you, being yet with you,
that it behoveth to be fulfilled all the things that are written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, about Me.'
5 Then opened He up their understanding to understand the Writings,
46 and He said to them -- 'Thus it hath been written, and thus it was behoving the Christ to suffer, and to rise out of the dead the third day,




.

Thanks!
And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

 

[By Faith Alone]

I'm just talking about what the Bible says. Surely that can't be against the rules.

Wanna bet?

 

[Timothew]

Wanna bet?

I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead!
Acts 23:6

 

[MoreCoffee]

You didn't mention it's use in Matthew 2:13, I think that is relevant to the discussion. I've already seen and studied the definition. And you can see from the definition that actually does mean destruction. But what about the words usage in Matthew 2:13?

Matthew 2:13 is mentioned in the second definition thus:
(I) Act. form:

(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.: (1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co 1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa 29:14). (2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish.

(a) Spoken of physical death (Mat 2:13; Mat 12:14; Mat 21:41; Mat 22:7; Mar 3:6; Mar 9:22; Mar 11:18; Mar 12:9; Luk 6:9 [TR]; Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29; Luk 19:47; Luk 20:16; Joh 10:10; Jud 1:5; Sept.: Gen 20:4; Deu 11:4; Est 4:9; Est 9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat 27:20; Jas 4:12).​

 

[By Faith Alone]

I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead!
Acts 23:6

The Lord stood fast and firm for us unto death and He expects no less for believers.

Satan has thrown up the fog of tradition in such a manner most would not give God the time of day.

Carry on.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Annihilate is merely a synonym for destroy. I never said that that Matthew 10:28 says that the lost are annihilated, it says to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Please don't move the goalposts. It was never my doctrine that the lost are annihilated but not destroyed.

In English
ANNI'HILATE, v.t. [Latin. ad and nihilum, nothing, of ne, not, and hilum, a trifle.]

1. To reduce to nothing; to destroy the existence of.

No human power can annihilate matter.

2. To destroy the form or peculiar distinctive properties, so that the specific thing no longer exists; as, to annihilate a forest by cutting and carrying away the trees, though the timber may still exist; to annihilate a house by demolishing the structure.​

In Greek this is not so, is it, and since Annihilate is of Latin origin it may be worth seeing if the Latin expression is used in 2:13 or 10:28.

Here is the Latin of the two verses.

Matthew 2:13 Vulgate qui cum recessissent ecce angelus Domini apparuit in somnis Ioseph dicens surge et accipe puerum et matrem eius et fuge in Aegyptum et esto ibi usque dum dicam tibi futurum est enim ut Herodes quaerat puerum ad perdendum eum

Matthew 10:28 Vulgate et nolite timere eos qui occidunt corpus animam autem non possunt occidere sed potius eum timete qui potest et animam et corpus perdere in gehennam
​

Neither passage uses ad nihilum or anything similar to it.

 

[Timothew]

Matthew 2:13 is mentioned in the second definition thus:
(I) Act. form:

(A) To destroy, cause to perish, trans.: (1) Spoken of things figuratively (1Co 1:19, meaning to bring to naught, render void the wisdom of the wise, quoted from Isa 29:14). (2) Of persons, to destroy, put to death, cause to perish.

(a) Spoken of physical death (Mat 2:13; Mat 12:14; Mat 21:41; Mat 22:7; Mar 3:6; Mar 9:22; Mar 11:18; Mar 12:9; Luk 6:9 [TR]; Luk 17:27, Luk 17:29; Luk 19:47; Luk 20:16; Joh 10:10; Jud 1:5; Sept.: Gen 20:4; Deu 11:4; Est 4:9; Est 9:16); in a judicial sense to sentence to death (Mat 27:20; Jas 4:12).​

So the word used in Matthew 10:28, the same word that is used in Matthew 2:13 can mean "to destroy, cause to perish. etc."

Now look at Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

Why shouldn't I believe that all sinners will be destroyed? The Hebrew word is shamad and means "destroyed".

 

[Timothew]

In English
ANNI'HILATE, v.t. [Latin. ad and nihilum, nothing, of ne, not, and hilum, a trifle.]

1. To reduce to nothing; to destroy the existence of.

No human power can annihilate matter.

2. To destroy the form or peculiar distinctive properties, so that the specific thing no longer exists; as, to annihilate a forest by cutting and carrying away the trees, though the timber may still exist; to annihilate a house by demolishing the structure.​

In Greek this is not so, is it, and since Annihilate is of Latin origin it may be worth seeing if the Latin expression is used in 2:13 or 10:28.

Here is the Latin of the two verses.

Matthew 2:13 Vulgate qui cum recessissent ecce angelus Domini apparuit in somnis Ioseph dicens surge et accipe puerum et matrem eius et fuge in Aegyptum et esto ibi usque dum dicam tibi futurum est enim ut Herodes quaerat puerum ad perdendum eum

Matthew 10:28 Vulgate et nolite timere eos qui occidunt corpus animam autem non possunt occidere sed potius eum timete qui potest et animam et corpus perdere in gehennam
​

Neither passage uses ad nihilum or anything similar to it.

My doctrine is that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible says. They will perish. It is not necessary for them to reduced to nothingness to perish or be destroyed. Please don't nitpick the term "Annihilationism".

 

[MoreCoffee]

So the word used in Matthew 10:28, the same word that is used in Matthew 2:13 can mean "to destroy, cause to perish. etc."

Now look at Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

Why shouldn't I believe that all sinners will be destroyed? The Hebrew word is shamad and means "destroyed".

No, let's not go to a passage in Hebrew unless it is quoted in Matthew 10:28 or Matthew 2:13 (and it isn't). We need to thrash out the meaning in the passages in Greek first. Neither passage uses "annihilate" in English or a Greek equivalent.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My doctrine is that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible says. They will perish. It is not necessary for them to reduced to nothingness to perish or be destroyed. Please don't nitpick the term "Annihilationism".

If you think destroy means render to their constituent atoms or something similar then you will not find a Greek word with that meaning used in Matthew 10:28 or 2:13.

 

[Timothew]

No, let's not go to a passage in Hebrew unless it is quoted in Matthew 10:28 or Matthew 2:13 (and it isn't). We need to thrash out the meaning in the passages in Greek first. Neither passage uses "annihilate" in English or a Greek equivalent.

We've established that it means "destroy". I believe that the wicked will be destroyed.

 

[Timothew]

If you think destroy means render to their constituent atoms or something similar then you will not find a Greek word with that meaning used in Matthew 10:28 or 2:13.

That is not what I mean by destroy. It means (for a person) to be killed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We've established that it means "destroy". I believe that the wicked will be destroyed.

We have also established that the Greek words do not mean annihilate, nor do they mean obliterate the 'soul', nor do they mean obliterate the 'spirit', nor do they mean cause to be dead and unconscious forever and ever.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is not what I mean by destroy. It means (for a person) to be killed.

Jesus upbraids the Sadducees by noting that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead because God is the God of the living. Since Abraham is pictured in the story of Lazarus and the rich man as conscious, mentally aware, and able to converse it seems that Jesus is not attempting to teach unconscious existence between death and resurrection.

 

[Timothew]

We have also established that the Greek words do not mean annihilate, nor do they mean obliterate the 'soul', nor do they mean obliterate the 'spirit', nor do they mean cause to be dead and unconscious forever and ever.

Once again (Tim patiently explained) it is not my doctrine that the souls of the lost are annihilated, the souls of the lost are destroyed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Once again (Tim patiently explained) it is not my doctrine that the souls of the lost are annihilated, the souls of the lost are destroyed.

What does destroyed mean? In English it means: Demolished; pulled down; ruined; annihilated; devoured; swept away; &c.