• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

Status
Not open for further replies.

By Faith Alone

Junior Member
Oct 17, 2013
2,738
87
✟25,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What is it that you think I should do with 2 Tim 4:11? If you think Heb 9:27-28 are relevant please quote them and make your argument. I see no need for me to chase down verses you refer to. If you think you can show something from the OT, please do so. I do not see how the priesthood in sanctuary cities is relevant to this discussion.

Hebrews 9:27 is misused to apply to all. Not true. It is a type in the OT and Jesus Christ is the anti-type.

"It is appointed to THE men once to die, then judgment". Here is the type:

Numbers 35:12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment (krisis).

That statement is followed by a law that distinguishes between a wilful murder and a manslayer. After those distinctions have been made:

Numbers 35:24-28 Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments: and the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the... DEATH... of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil ... after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.
It is the `judgment' equivalent to salvation that was to be proclaimed by the congregation. It hinged upon the death of the anointed high priest and points to the great day of Atonement.

"And as the men die ONCE...judgment"

The simile:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So also Christ was offered ONCE...unto salvation.

2 Timothy 4:1 does not show ALL are dead that are in that judgment.
 
Upvote 0

Viren

Contributor
Dec 9, 2010
9,156
1,788
Seattle
✟53,898.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Have we really considered what "eternity" is...and what it isn't?
Think about this..."time" as we think of it, did not exist before God created it.
It is extremely difficult for us humans to wrap our minds around this idea...yet don't we speak of "the end of time"?
What is left when time ends?

God who is changeless and eternal. Without change there is no time.

James 1:17

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

2 Corinthians 4:8

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And again, as is your continuing practice, misrepresent what I said...

when you constantly misrepresent what I say?

More deliberate misrepresentation.

you have a very weak position

Would you like to try again and maybe use a little honesty and integrity?

Virtually everything you wrote in this post twists or misrepresents what I said.

don't try to use the words of Paul to change the meaning of what Jesus said. It appears to me that you are trying to take Paul's word and change what Jesus said.

your only response is Nuh uh that is all figurative

That is a handy cop-out

I'm just tired of stuff like this. Believe whatever you want.
 
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
"Eternity?" said Frankie Lee, with a voice as cold as ice...

"That's right" says Judas -- "Eternity. Though you might call it 'Paradise'."

"I don't call it anything." said Frankie Lee with a smile.

"Alright" says Judas Priest -- "I'll see you after while."

- Bob Dylan
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hebrews 9:27 is misused to apply to all. Not true. It is a type in the OT and Jesus Christ is the anti-type.

"It is appointed to THE men once to die, then judgment". Here is the type:

Numbers 35:12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment (krisis).

That statement is followed by a law that distinguishes between a wilful murder and a manslayer. After those distinctions have been made:

Numbers 35:24-28 Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments: and the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the... DEATH... of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil ... after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.
It is the `judgment' equivalent to salvation that was to be proclaimed by the congregation. It hinged upon the death of the anointed high priest and points to the great day of Atonement.

"And as the men die ONCE...judgment"

The simile:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So also Christ was offered ONCE...unto salvation.

2 Timothy 4:1 does not show ALL are dead that are in that judgment.

Interesting story but you have only made assertions you have not proved your argument. I think, as most scholars do, it means exactly what it says and has nothing to do with a slayer going free after the death of the high priest.
 
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
"Numbers 35:12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment (krisis)."

Uhh... is this a SEPTUAGINT version of Numbers 35:12 ??

'krisis' is the Greek word for judgement - Numbers is obviously originally in Hebrew

I share D A' s dubiousness that 'manslayer stuff' has aught to do with Hebrews 9:27

and I believe in taking away the "the" in front of "the judgement"

but I never saw anyone put a "the" before MAN - like - "the men" or "the man"

I always felt these "definite articles" like our English "the" ...

are simply NOT THERE in the Koine Greek
 
Upvote 0

Stephen Kendall

believer of Jesus Christ
Sep 28, 2008
1,387
112
USA
✟17,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
At the time of Jesus the Saduccees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died, young, old, good, bad, no exception and no punishment involved. Since the didn't believe in the resurrection death was already everlasting. So when jesus taught about "everlsting punishment" it would have meant something other than death,.


If I say that I believe in good and the Father of light and good, which he teaches me to be like himself through his son Jesus; what am I saying if I agree with you, that I believe in a God of everlasting torture?

God isn't going to teach me how to love and not judge, and then expose his judgments as worst than that of Satan's. He wants us to listen and ponder and to be free, this will never happen if I can't listen to him, ponder over his words and be free enough to decide for myself on the things around me. I don't believe in Allah, nor do I accept a torturer Father that presents a capital judgment of punishment that is way beyond of the worst terrorists. I can be a Christian and even give up all for God, but to worship a torturer, that is beyond me, and my Father in Heaven understands this for He has taught me through his son Jesus.

There are a lot things that aren't acceptable to the teachings of Christ. God wants us to think, not to be a confused robot that simple goes left and right at the same time. Forget it.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If I say that I believe in good and the Father of light and good, which he teaches me to be like himself through his son Jesus; what am I saying if I agree with you, that I believe in a God of everlasting torture?

What does this have to do with anything I said?

God isn't going to teach me how to love and not judge, and then expose his judgments as worst than that of Satan's.

Evidently you can't support your argument with scripture so you use a meaningless reference to Satan. God's judgment is not dependent on the sensibilities and prejudices of us finite humans. God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

He wants us to listen and ponder and to be free, this will never happen if I can't listen to him, ponder over his words and be free enough to decide for myself on the things around me.

And where have I suggested otherwise?

I don't believe in Allah, nor do I accept a torturer Father that presents a capital judgment of punishment that is way beyond of the worst terrorists. I can be a Christian and even give up all for God, but to worship a torturer, that is beyond me, and my Father in Heaven understands this for He has taught me through his son Jesus.

What you think. What you believe. What you like and don't like. Evidently your faith is based on your personal feelings not scripture.

There are a lot things that aren't acceptable to the teachings of Christ. God wants us to think, not to be a confused robot that simple goes left and right at the same time. Forget it.

Are you accusing me of something? I am not a confused robot. I have thoroughly researched what I believe and can back up everything I believe from scripture and historical evidence. And I don't mean a handful of out-of-context proof texts like a lot of folks around here do.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm just tired of stuff like this. Believe whatever you want.

Good! I'm tired of being mispresented in virtually every post, being accused of believing and saying things I do not believe and do not say. And I am equally tired of reading posts which say "Der Alter does not believe Rom 6:23,""Der Alter believes Rom 6:23 means eternal torment." etc. You keep my name out of your posts and stop misrepresenting me and I'll gladly ignore you.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
At the time of Jesus the Saduccees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died, young, old, good, bad, no exception and no punishment involved. Since the didn't believe in the resurrection death was already everlasting. So when jesus taught about "everlsting punishment" it would have meant something other than death,.
Hogwash! :doh:Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Ps 31:17
Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

Ps 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hogwash! Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

The same ol' litany of out-of-c ontext proof texts which have been adddressed and refuted contless times before. Repeating the same the same verses over and over does not change what they say.

Robertson's Word Picture.
twice dead — First when they cast their leaves in autumn, and seem during winter dead, but revive again in spring; secondly, when they are “plucked up by the roots.” So these apostates, once dead in unbelief, and then by profession and baptism raised from the death of sin to the life of righteousness, but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, “plucked up by the roots.”​

Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

This is a prayer, what the Psalmist wants God to do to his enemies not what will happen.

Ps 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

What the Psalmist can observe with his natural senses. From the POV of mortal man the dead are lying silent in their graves. But this certainly does not support annihilationism!

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms are interchangeable, the lake of fire is the second death and the second death is the lake of fire, which is not synonymous with death or destruction.

We know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Rev 19:20, 20:10 three living beings, the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, one the false prophet is a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.


test
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Originally Posted by Der Alter > The same ol' litany of out-of-c ontext proof texts which have been adddressed and refuted contless times before. Repeating the same the same verses over and over does not change what they say. Robertson's Word Picture. twice dead — First when they cast their leaves in autumn, and seem during winter dead, but revive again in spring; secondly, when they are “plucked up by the roots.” So these apostates, once dead in unbelief, and then by profession and baptism raised from the death of sin to the life of righteousness, but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, “plucked up by the roots.”[/quote]
Repeating the same the same verses over and over does not change what they say.

but now having become dead again by apostasy, and so hopelessly dead. There is a climax. Not only without leaves, like trees in late autumn, but without fruit: not only so, but dead twice; and to crown all, “plucked up by the roots.

Originally Posted by Der Alter Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous. This is a prayer, what the Psalmist wants God to do to his enemies not what will happen.[/quote]

The whole Bible is a prayer? This is what the Psalmist says God will do to his enemies: Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Those who die without God are forever silent in the grave, but we who have our God shall live forever more!

Ps 94:23
And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.

Ps 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Ps 88:10
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.


Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, [in Christ] and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Ps 94:17 Unless the LORD had been my help, my soul had almost dwelt in silence.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ps 140:9 As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them.
10
Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Pro 14:32 The wicked is driven away in his wickedness: but the righteous hath hope in his death.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall vexed [go up as smoke] day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,



 
Upvote 0

Stephen Kendall

believer of Jesus Christ
Sep 28, 2008
1,387
112
USA
✟17,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What you think. What you believe. What you like and don't like. Evidently your faith is based on your personal feelings not scripture.



Are you accusing me of something? I am not a confused robot. I have thoroughly researched what I believe and can back up everything I believe from scripture and historical evidence. And I don't mean a handful of out-of-context proof texts like a lot of folks around here do.

Faith is personal and unique. It is in Jesus to listen to him and obey him. Faith has feelings and wisdom, not following a pattern of proofs. Is it not wisdom that we say that we don't know all, but this is what I believe. I support it on what I am taught by Jesus of his Father, he teaches us to exist by love and follow his love which is his father's. Connecting dots isn't really the best way to understand. Jesus taught in parables. We need wisdom to understand him. I didn't mean to use your post to attack, but it was just a starting point to start posting my own thoughts. I apologize for offending anyone here, I am sorry.

When I read the Bible, especially the New Testament, I try to see the will of God as expressed between the lines (as Jesus has given us so much of). I am sorry to bother others. I want to obey Jesus and must be able to. I listen and obey him first for he is my rock, my faith and salvation. Thank you for listening.
 
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I agree with this.
Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#964;&#969; to slay utterly; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#940;&#950;&#969;, later &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;-&#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#969; Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A &#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -&#958;&#969; LXX Ez.16.40 slaughter, murder


And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
Is 66 "many will be those slain by the Lord" (v 16b). The wicked "will meet their end together" (v 17). Fudge, Fire 119-154.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Psa 83:14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
17
Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
 
Upvote 0

shturt678s

Regular Member
Dec 11, 2013
2,733
118
✟25,797.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> them before me. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#964;&#969; to slay utterly; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#940;&#950;&#969;, later &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;-&#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#969; Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A &#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -&#958;&#969; LXX Ez.16.40 :&#8212; slaughter, murder


And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up&#8212;exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
Is 66 "many will be those slain by the Lord" (v 16b). The wicked "will meet their end together" (v 17). Fudge, Fire 119-154.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Psa 83:14 As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
17
Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

For those that distress the Kingdom of God, one is punished (Matt.13:41, etc.).

Would you considered one's soul evaporizes at one's end of life the same punishment as one that is tormented inwardly and outwardly for eternity at the end of time being in conscious toment mentally awaiting their new bodies at the end?

Old Jack that picks the latter as exponentially more punishing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

he-man

he-man
Oct 28, 2010
8,891
301
usa
✟98,248.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
For those that distress the Kingdom of God, one is punished (Matt.13:41, etc.).
Would you considered one's soul evaporizes at one's end of life the same punishment as one that is tormented inwardly and outwardly for eternity at the end of time being in conscious toment mentally awaiting their new bodies at the end? Old Jack that picks the latter as exponentially more punishing.
What do you suppose and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and there was found no place for them could possibly mean in Rev 20:9, 11?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> thembefore me. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#964;&#969; to slay utterly; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#940;&#950;&#969;, later &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;-&#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#969; Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A &#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -&#958;&#969; LXX Ez.16.40 slaughter, murder

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 66:16
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many.
H2491 &#1495;&#1500;&#1500; cha&#770;la&#770;l nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink
3
Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the false accusers that deceived them were cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 
Upvote 0

By Faith Alone

Junior Member
Oct 17, 2013
2,738
87
✟25,792.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Interesting story but you have only made assertions you have not proved your argument. I think, as most scholars do, it means exactly what it says and has nothing to do with a slayer going free after the death of the high priest.

"Scholars"? What "scholar" would miss the types and shadows of Hebrews and also a judgment that there will be those STILL LIVING seen here?

2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

But I guess you will go on thinking the way you do even with all the proof that would bury your stance and you with it.


ACTS 17:11
 
Upvote 0

Anto9us

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2013
5,105
2,041
Texas
✟95,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
10 And the false accusers that deceived them were cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You've proved it yourself, HeMan -- "tormented day and night for ever and ever." cannot jive with ANIHILATION -- it is diametrically opposed to it -- one cannot be tormented for ANY length of time if they no longer exist, savvy?

And the Beast and the False Prophet are tossed in fiery lake 1000 years before the devil is -- when devil is tossed in -- it is said he has been tossed in "where the Beast and False Prophet ARE -- get it? "Are"

Not "where the Beast and False Prophet were annihilated 1000 years ago" but rather

"where the Beast and False Prophet ARE "

10 And the false accusers that deceived them were cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That one verse you quote blows Anihilation out of the water - big time - a being who has had his existence snuffed out altogether cannot - by definition - be "tormented day and night for ever and ever"

he is either out of existence - or he is being tormented -- but he cannot be both at once
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
29,117
6,145
EST
✟1,123,523.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"Scholars"? What "scholar" would miss the types and shadows of Hebrews and also a judgment that there will be those STILL LIVING seen here?

2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

But I guess you will go on thinking the way you do even with all the proof that would bury your stance and you with it.

ACTS 17:11

An abundance of bloviation but it does not addess my post and I see no relevance to your previous post. I do not deny that there is figurative language in the Bible but everything in the Bible is not one big metaphor. There are a few folks in this forum who find figurative language in virtually everything. The problem is that they all have different explanations what the so-called figurative language "really means." And lo and behold the figurative language just happens to prove their individual false doctrines and supposedly disproves other views. So which figurative view should I follow this one or one of the others? My question is why has all this figurative, symbolic language not been seen by the church for 2000 years +/- and the Jews 1000 years +/- before that?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.