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So let me get this straight, when someone studies Scripture and comes to an understanding of them on a particular subject and someone else's interpretation is different from mine, they're ideas are heresy.
I've read the posts - maybe not every one of them but most. To me, it's worse to say someone else's ideas are heresy. It's not just on this thread. Folks with a different point of view are labeled ignorant, lazy, dupes, etc. unfortunately, that happens often here.
Next we look at what is meant by "destroy" in Matt 10:28
Does it mean "destroy as in preserve alive forever?"
Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.
2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
[/QUOTE]Ps 37
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Numbers 16:21
Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them instantly.
2 Kings 1:10
Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.
Why do you bring these verses up? They talk about being consumed in the sense of dying physically, not ceasing to exist. Their soul still remains. Otherwise how could Jesus raise people from the dead?
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Read it in light of the book of Revelation, where it talks about torment for the false prophet etc. If it means annihilation here, then that wouldn't be possible.
In more detail what happens that time is that they surround the camp of the saints - are judged and then cast into the lake of Fire - that is the fire that consumes them.
Where does it say that it's that fire which consumes them? Even if it does say that, it's not consumes as in annihilating. They've already experienced physical death before, and been in a state of spiritual death, so they remain in this state of spiritual death.
God can torment resurrected bodies of the wicked in hell, without annihilating them. It's not subject to physical death there.
Destroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.
However, I'm sure you cannot find more verses that seem to support annihilationism (from your POV) than those that speak against, in the Gospels or the whole NT for that matter.
Thus, this verse has to be read in the light of everything else the Bible has to say about the state of the wicked after death. Otherwise you will make the Bible seem to contradict itself.
Well, do you think our souls will be reduced to ashes? Our souls do not cease to exist when we die physically.
How can they be "undergoing" (verb) punishment, if they're annihilated? If that's their punishment, how can they undergo this? How is annihilation fair in the light of this?:
"And that servant who knew his masters will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47 NKJV)
The Bible talks more about what will happen when Jesus comes, and it doesn't talk about people being annihilated. On the other, hand it talks about the resurrection of the body among other things, and in order for that to be possible, they need to be in existence in the first place.
Why do you bring these verses up? They talk about being consumed in the sense of dying physically, not ceasing to exist. Their soul still remains. Otherwise how could Jesus raise people from the dead?
Read it in light of the book of Revelation, where it talks about torment for the false prophet etc. If it means annihilation here, then that wouldn't be possible.
Where does it say that it's that fire which consumes them? Even if it does say that, it's not consumes as in annihilating. They've already experienced physical death before, and been in a state of spiritual death, so they remain in this state of spiritual death.
God can torment resurrected bodies of the wicked in hell, without annihilating them. It's not subject to physical death there.
If I am able to discern every heresy and have all of the knowledge in heaven, and if I know everything there is to know about the depths of hell, But I do not love others, I make myself a total jerk.
If I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
If I am able to discern every heresy and have all of the knowledge in heaven, and if I know everything there is to know about the depths of hell, But I do not love others, I make myself a total jerk.
Vision
Members of Christian Forums are considerate, motivated by love and not hate, and they respect one another. Because our members are considerate, loving, and respectful, they do not make overly provocative posts, posts which seek to annoy or cause disruption, or posts which personally attack other members out of anger and frustration. Our members desire to contribute in a positive and loving manner so that Christian Forums will display the gracious love of God. Our rules were established for the benefit of both our membership and CF as a whole.
When I first got here and read that, I actually thought I'd find myself around positive and loving Christians who treated one another with consideration, and respect. I thought I was among friends.
It is not a mistake I will make again.
Destroyer....Passover.....Titus....destruction of JerusalemDestroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.
.
Shades of Alexander the great...
Every good greek believed that the dead went into hades...
There were even ways to get into it while alive.
Hercules did it, for instance.
And I can't remember the fellow's name, but he made a deal with the Lord of the Underworld, the god Hades, to allow him to come in and bring his lady, who had died of a snake bite, back from the dead. Hades said he'd let her go, on the condition that she follow him out and he was not to look behind him to see her until they were both back in the land of the living.
He got as far as the exit...and he couldn't stand it any longer. He glanced over his shoulder to see if she was there, and she disappeared before his eyes. He had to leave her there in the land of the dead. It was a very sad story...
The "spirits in prison" were fallen angels. "Darkness was on the face of the deep". Dragons, in the Bible, are associated with "deeps". The abyss. The bottomless pit..... reserved for the devil and his angels before Adam was ever formed out of the dust of the grounds. Lucifer kinda screwed things up a little after Genesis 1:1.
So let me get this straight, when someone studies Scripture and comes to an understanding of them on a particular subject and someone else's interpretation is different from mine, they're ideas are heresy.
So let me get this straight, when someone studies Scripture and comes to an understanding of them on a particular subject and someone else's interpretation is different from mine, they're ideas are heresy.
Read the posts in this thread and you'll see numerous statements that those who do believe in eternal punishment are ignorant, lazy, dupes who accept tradition, can't be bothered to read their bibles, and are too stupid to understand it when they read it. That's worse that calling an error in theology a heresy. Post #379 is one more example of condemning those who disagree with annihilationism.
A heresy is, literally, to walk apart (from the belief of the church). So that is the only way any deviant or unusual belief can be a "heresy."
Merely having a belief that is different from the next fellow's view doesn't qualify. Or to put it another way, if you call any doctrine a heresy you would be correct only to the extent that you are saying that it's contrary to something that the church itself has defined.
Destroy there is in verb form. For them to continually undergo this torment, they need to be in existence in order to experience it. Destroy here doesn't mean to annihilate, since the soul is immortal/eternal in the sense that it doesn't cease to exist.
However, I'm sure you cannot find more verses that seem to support annihilationism (from your POV) than those that speak against, in the Gospels or the whole NT for that matter.
Thus, this verse has to be read in the light of everything else the Bible has to say about the state of the wicked after death. Otherwise you will make the Bible seem to contradict itself.
Well, do you think our souls will be reduced to ashes? Our souls do not cease to exist when we die physically.
How can they be "undergoing" (verb) punishment, if they're annihilated? If that's their punishment, how can they undergo this? How is annihilation fair in the light of this?:
"And that servant who knew his masters will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47 NKJV)
The Bible talks more about what will happen when Jesus comes, and it doesn't talk about people being annihilated. On the other, hand it talks about the resurrection of the body among other things, and in order for that to be possible, they need to be in existence in the first place.
Why do you bring these verses up? They talk about being consumed in the sense of dying physically, not ceasing to exist. Their soul still remains. Otherwise how could Jesus raise people from the dead?
Read it in light of the book of Revelation, where it talks about torment for the false prophet etc. If it means annihilation here, then that wouldn't be possible.
Where does it say that it's that fire which consumes them? Even if it does say that, it's not consumes as in annihilating. They've already experienced physical death before, and been in a state of spiritual death, so they remain in this state of spiritual death.
God can torment resurrected bodies of the wicked in hell, without annihilating them. It's not subject to physical death there.
A heresy is, literally, to walk apart (from the belief of the church). Merely having a belief that is different from the next fellow's view doesn't qualify. Or to put it another way, if you or I call any doctrine a heresy, that would be correct only to the extent that we are saying that it's contrary to something that the church itself has already determined.
Ummmm, if you say so.......If you have to believe in eternal torture to be a good person, you're probably not a good person.
This post is a heresy j/k
Well maybe I was wrong about this thread. The fact we are still discussing it means that there isn't any rules broken.
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