.I think your statement is not correct, there are numerous detailed exegetical texts dealing with the question of hell and heaven, eternal punishment and eternal reward, the intermediate state and the resurrection and all of them deal with the texts in sacred scripture in detail and answer numerous objections raised by conditionalists over the ages. I myself have read and dealt with Leroy Edwin Frooms's The Conditionalist Faith of our Fathers which is a Seventh Day Adventist text (two volumes) dealing with the matter of conditional immortality as it is taught by Seventh Day Adventist theologians and their church. I haven't written any books that have been published as a formal reply but I have dealt with the issue in various forums and in teaching within my own church. It is not true that my side has not put forward a credible case, it is more that you do not acknowledge it. I wrote that second paragraph in the quote above to draw you out so that you would offer a response to the issue of differing interpretive frameworks and how they leave us with no definitive answers for this issue; yet you offered none except a blanket statement that dismisses all who hold a view supportive of eternal punishment and an eternal hell. Do you think that is a serious and worthwhile way to respond?My side is people, not some kind of monolithic organisation that condemns you individually as a heretic.
It would be hard to convince the scholars in the following list - that they are all Seventh-day Adventists or that being SDA is the only reason they accept the Bible truth on the fact that the fires of hell "consume the wicked" Rev 20:9.
I prefer Matt 10:28 and Rev 20:9, Ezek 18:4 to name calling.
That means that I can accept Martin Luther when he promotes that same Bible teaching. That also goes for
- John Stott,
- N.T. Wright - St Andrews,
- F.F Bruce (Manchester Univ. U.K.
- Michael Green. British scholar author "Evangelism in the New Testament"
- E.E. Ellis - Southwestern Baptist Theol Seminary
- Philip E. Hughes - Westminter Theo Seminary, Reformed Theol Seminary
- Thomas Olbricht - Pepperdine Univ. Abaline Christian Univ
- John McRay - Wheaton Graduate School
- John Stackhouse - Regent College - Vancouver (replaced J.I. Packer)
- Dale Moody - Southern Baptist Theol Seminary Louisville
- John Franke - Biblical Seminary - Hatfield Penn
- Homer Haley - Church of Christ - Abilene Christian College
- Thomas Robinson - Union Theol Semin. Princeton Theol Semin. Pepperdine
- Clark Pinnock - New Orleans Baptist Theol Semin
- John Wenham - Evangelical - Anglican pioneer.
- Richard Bauckham - Cambridge
- Edward Fudge (see the movie "Hell and Mr. Fudge" now sold in Walmart and also Barnes and Noble.
I suppose we could line all these guys up for "name calling" but that does not seem like the scholarly or Christian solution.
Or we could just accept the Bible as it reads then name calling is not necessary.
Read how the word "consumed" is used at other places in the Bible, and you'll see it doesn't refer to being annihilated,
In the post above I was simply pointing to well respected scholars from different denominations that see this point about "destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" and accept it --- so this discussion cannot be "recast" as "just a Seventh-day Adventist POV".
As for "Consume"...
Rev 20:9 NASB, YLT, NKJV, KJV
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and
fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:9 New English Trans
9 They went up on the broad plain of the earth and encircled the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and
devoured them completely.
Holman
9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then
fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
Hebrews 10:27
but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will
consume the adversaries.
James 5:3
Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will
consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!
Luke 9:54
And when His disciples James and John saw
this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and
consume them, just as Elijah did?”
Numbers 16:21
“Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may
consume them instantly.”
2 Kings 1:10
Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and
consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and
consumed him and his fifty.
Job 24:19
“Drought and heat
consume the snow waters,
So does Sheol
those who have sinned.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will
consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
==================
By the way, regarding Revelation 20:9. It's talking about being devoured while still on earth,
I fully agree.
in context, as it talks about surrounding "the camp of the saints and the beloved city".
Yes - I fully agree with that.
Now, we know these people didn't cease to exist, because of what Rev. 20:11-15 says. Now, if they were annihilated, how could they be resurrected in their body in verse 13 there? Read verse 15, it doesn't talk about annihilation.
John uses a "drill down" pattern -- first introducing a subject then drilling down to the details.
The wicked (who come to life when the 1000 years are ended) surround the city - the New Jerusalem and are consumed by fire from God in 20:9.
In more detail what happens that time is that they surround the camp of the saints - are judged and then cast into the lake of Fire - that is the fire that consumes them.
John simply gives more detail to the subject he described in a 1 verse summary in vs 9.
more on this in the next post.
in Christ,
Bob