Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

FredVB · Sep 21, 2023

FredVB said:
You said, "You believe the lie that says once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we will never lose "our" everlasting life - as though everlasting life is in ourselves, rather than in Christ, who alone is immortal, who alone has everlasting life in Himself.

Therefore you do not believe His Word that says,

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you." (John 15:6-7).

And so you make yourself judge of the heart condition of men who fell away, asserting that the person who does not abide in Him, never had everlasting life in Him in the first place, as though Adam never had everlasting life in the Word before he believed the lie and began to die.

It's an insult to God to say those who fall away never had everlasting life in Christ in the first place, because eternal life is in Christ, not in us.

Satan is very deceptive. He has many saints believing the same lie that once God has given us everlasting life in Christ, we can never lose it. They believe the same lie Adam believed.

@FredVB Only Christ was predestined before the creation of Adam to be the Savior of all mankind. We are all sons of Adam - the creature.

God our Creator did not saw Adam in two before he was created and decide which part to save in Christ and which part not to. He wants all men to be saved - though not all men will, because the will of individuals is not taken away, but God Himself is not willing that any should perish, but all should be saved, which is why Christ died.

@FredVB Your words betray the fact that you conflate the foreknowledge of God with the will of God.

So my prayer for you in the name of Jesus Christ is that if you ever experience serious doubt in your faith and find yourself beginning to fall away, that you will remember that Peter told Christ He would never deny His name only a few hours before the rooster crowed, and that you will remember to immediately call on Jesus to save you like Peter did when he began to sink.

Because you believe that God does not allow Satan to sow doubt in the hearts and minds in the sons of Adam to try them the way He allowed Satan to sow doubt into the hearts and minds of Adam and Eve, and into the mind of John the Baptist when he was not being delivered from his prison shackles, and sent his disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one to come, or should they look for another.

And you believe that if someone falls away he was never saved in the first place.

So you will condemn yourself as someone who never believed in the first place if it ever happens to you, and just as harshly as you judge the hearts and minds of those who fall away, even if they "backslid", so you will judge and condemn yourself if it happens to you, because you believe a lie."

FredVB said:
The problem with that then is that everlasting life is then not a gift, which we are told it is, if only it is in Christ and not in us.

1 John 5:11 tells us, God has given to us eternal life, this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has this life. We are also told the Spirit of God secures us who are believers. Sanctification is happening in believers, it begins at the start, and growth toward further and further godliness should be happening, with distinction that should be seen in believers from others. It can be hard to be seen when some among them saying they are Christian are not actually real believers. That isn't insulting, it is what we are warned of, in the Bible. They go out from us, but they were not of us.

It starts with real faith, that is with repentance to life with sin we had and trusting Christ for this life and the restoration to God who gives us that, with the Spirit of God securing us.

God foreknew us, Romans 8 is a good chapter to see for our security from God.

Backsliding is not the same as falling away from Christ. I see there is ease in mixing up terms to hold different interpretations and beliefs. We are not talking about backsliding.

Immortality is something else. Believers are given everlasting life, they then have it, being secure in Christ certainly, but physical death will still come, while they go on living in Christ still. Immortality would be continually living without dying even physically. We do not have that in our world, which is fallen, with death now everywhere, and we live in a culture of death.

I have had such serious doubt, long ago, where another might think it would be falling away, in circumstances I would not share, to not discourage any that would be weak in faith. But through that doubt I did not ever wanted to turn from God. I was not going to turn to sins against God then. I wanted God who is there to show me truth I needed to know. I was weaker through that, but came back to faith that is not dependent still on circumstances. When things in life got worse again later, in some ways maybe more, I did not fall to any doubt anymore. It doesn't depend on what happens in my life, the truth is still there. Yet changes really happened in my life that were never expected before, and I still don't know such changes happen to other believers.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
In whom does 1 John 5:11 tell us is eternal life?

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

Eternal life is given to Jesus alone, and is in Christ alone. It is not given to the creature apart from Christ:

1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the record, that God has given to us everlasting life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

" If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:6

" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Eternal life is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has eternal life in Himself. Eternal life is not given to anyone who does not remain in the Vine, i.e in Christ.

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" -- John 5:26

Eternal life is not given to the creature apart from Christ, but in Christ. The very scriptures themselves, which you deny by changing the meaning of them, teach us all that it is indeed possible to have been dwelling in the Vine and to have chosen to leave. It's what Adam did, because he was capable of doing it when he was still living forever, even before he heard and believed the lie that said "..you will not surely die" - which implies that eternal life | immortality that is given to Adam (the creature) is in Adam himself, rather than in the Word of God His Creator.

The sons of Adam are no different. If we abide in the Word of Truth who is Christ we will live. If we believe the lie and turn aside from the Word of Truth we will die.

Eternal life is given to the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve in Christ alone, who alone has eternal life in Himself. It is not given to us in ourselves.

Who is talking about any having everlasting life apart from Christ? It was not I. But you keep coming to that. Are you ignoring repentance? No one is having needed faith in Christ and so saved without that. And with being in Christ the everlasting life is the gift to them, certainly it is the gift with Christ, in whom they are then. And being sealed with the Spirit of God is assured with that. It is not about departing from Christ. I am sure that those departing from Christ never repented that they then have the needed faith in Christ, the Bible talks about those ones. See 1 John 2:19, if it is not talking about those, what do you say it is talking about? Those really repentant never have reason to turn from Christ, the repentance was real, for it really being real faith that they have, in Christ, with being sealed that they never leave him.

Spiritual Jew said:
What do you make of a passage like this:

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”

Who are the "brothers and sisters" being addressed here? We can see that here:

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, so I'll speak from that perspective. Paul was addressing his "holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling and acknowledge Jesus as their "apostle and high priest". If that doesn't describe saved people, I don't know what does.

So, back to Hebrews 3:12-15 then. We see a warning there being given to the "holy brothers and sisters" in Christ that they needed to "see to it" that none of them had "a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God". Again, these are "holy brothers and sisters" in Christ being addressed here. Saved people. And, yet, they are being warned about having a sinful, unbelieving heart and turning away from God. Now, how can you say that a saved person can't fall away when this passage very strongly indicates that it is possible for a saved person to turn away from God?

He also warns these saved people to "encourage one another daily...so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness". So, these are saved believers that are warned about becoming hardened by sin's deceitfulness. If a saved person can't fall away, then what is the point of this warning? Surely, someone who becomes hardened by sin's deceitfulness would not be saved anymore and would be someone who has developed a sinful, unbelieving heart and turned away from the living God. Yet, you say this is not possible. This passage says otherwise.

How do you know you are not hardened? Have you been tested? I am sure already, absolutely, I am not hardened. But a great many are.

Zao is life · Sep 21, 2023

FredVB said:
See 1 John 2:19, if it is not talking about those, what do you say it is talking about?

The previous verse gives you the context. John is speaking about those who denied that Jesus is the Son of God (antichrists):

1 John 2:19 is talking about antichrists:

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is anti-christ.
23 Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father.

John continues:

24 Therefore what you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will abide in both the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He has promised us: everlasting life.

Now let's see in context who John was talking about:

1 John 2-18-22
18 Little children, it is the last time. And just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is anti-christ.

"They" who John is talking about are those who were teaching that Jesus the Son of God did not come in the flesh - and so John warns those who he is writing to, that they should "Therefore what you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. IF what you heard from the beginning remains in you, (then) you will abide in both the Son and in the Father."

The very warning John is giving them is saying the same thing that Jesus told you - anyone who has known the truth and departs from the Word of Truth, whether it be because of believing a lie or for any other reason, was saved in Christ and had eternal life in Christ but just as Jesus said, that person will be cast out as a branch and be withered if they do not abide in Him and let His Word abide in them.

The very verse you quote has nothing to do with your little god judgment regarding who had "truly repented" and who had not. It's a warning from John to those who will hear that they need to remain in the Word they heard from the beginning, and let it remain in them - and it does not contradict what Jesus said when He exhorted all to remain in Him because the branch that does not remain in Him will be cast out and withered and become good for nothing but burning.

In the process you have added your own doctrine to the Word of God, not realizing that in doing so you are twisting its meaning again in order to force scripture to comply with your own doctrine.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 22, 2023

FredVB said:
How do you know you are not hardened? Have you been tested? I am sure already, absolutely, I am not hardened. But a great many are.

This is all you have to say in response to what I said? Hmmm. Why is that?

To answer your questions, I know because of my personal relationship with Christ and how He leads me to love God and love others. If I was hardened, I wouldn't be doing those things at all. I'm not perfect by any means, but I know I'm not hardened. And I have been tested plenty. But, that is me. It doesn't mean that someone else can't turn away from God or that I can't possibly do that in the future if I'm not careful as passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 warn us to be.

Now, can you please address what I said in my other post? What is your understanding of a passage like Hebrews 3:12-14?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 22, 2023

FredVB said:
Who is talking about any having everlasting life apart from Christ? It was not I. But you keep coming to that. Are you ignoring repentance? No one is having needed faith in Christ and so saved without that. And with being in Christ the everlasting life is the gift to them, certainly it is the gift with Christ, in whom they are then. And being sealed with the Spirit of God is assured with that. It is not about departing from Christ. I am sure that those departing from Christ never repented that they then have the needed faith in Christ, the Bible talks about those ones. See 1 John 2:19, if it is not talking about those, what do you say it is talking about? Those really repentant never have reason to turn from Christ, the repentance was real, for it really being real faith that they have, in Christ, with being sealed that they never leave him.

You're missing that 1 John 2:19 is not talking about people who have fallen away from the faith the way verses like 2 Thess 2:3 and Hebrews 6:4-6 do. The context of 1 John 2:19, as Fullness of the Gentiles showed already, is in relation to antichrists who deny Christ and never accepted Him, not people who accept Christ and later deny Him. In verses like 2 Thess 2:3 and Hebrews 6:4-6 it's talking about people falling away "who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost". That does not describe the antichrists referenced in 1 John 2:19.

FredVB · Sep 25, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
This is all you have to say in response to what I said? Hmmm. Why is that?

To answer your questions, I know because of my personal relationship with Christ and how He leads me to love God and love others. If I was hardened, I wouldn't be doing those things at all. I'm not perfect by any means, but I know I'm not hardened. And I have been tested plenty. But, that is me. It doesn't mean that someone else can't turn away from God or that I can't possibly do that in the future if I'm not careful as passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 warn us to be.

Now, can you please address what I said in my other post? What is your understanding of a passage like Hebrews 3:12-14?

I think it refers to the same thing I have mentioned from 1 John. There are those who are not true believers who congregate with Christian believers even if many of them are real believers. When they are challenged enough by what being a Christian believer calls for, they will depart. We should be on guard for what things they may say to young believers that would be false. Since they do not believe in the gospel calling for repentance, they probably have false ideas that they would spread to some.

And I know I am not hardened, I know not to limit compassion, that is called for in godliness.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The previous verse gives you the context. John is speaking about those who denied that Jesus is the Son of God (antichrists):

1 John 2:19 is talking about antichrists:

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the antichrist you heard is coming, and even now is already in the world.

1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is anti-christ.
23 Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father.

John continues:

24 Therefore what you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you will abide in both the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He has promised us: everlasting life.

Now let's see in context who John was talking about:

1 John 2-18-22
18 Little children, it is the last time. And just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is anti-christ.

"They" who John is talking about are those who were teaching that Jesus the Son of God did not come in the flesh - and so John warns those who he is writing to, that they should "Therefore what you heard from the beginning, let it abide in you. IF what you heard from the beginning remains in you, (then) you will abide in both the Son and in the Father."

The very warning John is giving them is saying the same thing that Jesus told you - anyone who has known the truth and departs from the Word of Truth, whether it be because of believing a lie or for any other reason, was saved in Christ and had eternal life in Christ but just as Jesus said, that person will be cast out as a branch and be withered if they do not abide in Him and let His Word abide in them.

The very verse you quote has nothing to do with your little god judgment regarding who had "truly repented" and who had not. It's a warning from John to those who will hear that they need to remain in the Word they heard from the beginning, and let it remain in them - and it does not contradict what Jesus said when He exhorted all to remain in Him because the branch that does not remain in Him will be cast out and withered and become good for nothing but burning.

In the process you have added your own doctrine to the Word of God, not realizing that in doing so you are twisting its meaning again in order to force scripture to comply with your own doctrine.

It is your interpretation, which is not persuading me, that those who were among us deny Christ all along. But I think we would know those already doing so. But those who are among us can go out and deny Christ afterward, those we had to be told were not of us. They had never repented. There is no repentance with coming to that, they were never true believers, and they did not have salvation in Christ, the only way we would have everlasting life, which is the gift in Christ for us.

Yes, they knew important truth, that is shown in the Bible, and hopefully taught in many churches. There is salvation in Christ, and we must come in repentance. That is what God calls for, that isn't hard for us, except for stubbornness, and they want it easier. So they have a taste, and say they are Christian and congregate with others of us, but it wasn't real. We might be surprised if we were not alert when they leave us over something and speak against Christianity then after that. Those are ones you are thinking lost salvation, right?

Zao is life · Sep 27, 2023

FredVB said:
It is your interpretation, which is not persuading me, that those who were among us deny Christ all along. But I think we would know those already doing so. But those who are among us can go out and deny Christ afterward, those we had to be told were not of us. They had never repented. There is no repentance with coming to that, they were never true believers, and they did not have salvation in Christ, the only way we would have everlasting life, which is the gift in Christ for us.

Yes, they knew important truth, that is shown in the Bible, and hopefully taught in many churches. There is salvation in Christ, and we must come in repentance. That is what God calls for, that isn't hard for us, except for stubbornness, and they want it easier. So they have a taste, and say they are Christian and congregate with others of us, but it wasn't real. We might be surprised if we were not alert when they leave us over something and speak against Christianity then after that.

FredVB said:
Those are ones you are thinking lost salvation, right?

God's salvation is not the work of man's repentance. It's the work of Christ on the cross and lies in His resurrection power. Not in man. You are making man the author of his own salvation by making his own depth of commitment or his own repentance the sacrifice and power that saves him.

There are three basic things that can, have, and do cause even true believers to fall away:

1. Sin and the temptation to fall into sin. Falling into sin, leading to willful sinning. The world, the flesh and the devil.

2. Persecution and tribulation - which in the days leading up to the return of Christ is going to come upon the body of Christ (the saints) in the whole world very, very suddenly, without warning. The Pre-trib rapture saints will still be looking for their teachers and pastors for guidance on what's going on but they won't find them, because they will all have apostatized, or have been killed, or will have fled and are nowhere to be found.

3. Being led astray by false teachers teaching false doctrine that little by little leads the person out of the camp of the saints. For example mixing the truth with the Kabbalah. Or like those who begin by being "Torah-observant" and emphasizing the importance of the first (old) covenant and wind up rejecting all of Paul's teaching, getting themselves circumcised, and eventually just becoming completely Judaized. Or many other false doctrines.

2 Thess 2 and Matt 24:9-14 make it clear that not only will #1 & #3 be prevalent in the last days church (the lawlessness and false prophets Jesus and Paul told us all is coming), but once #2 hits the saints of the last days, then all three of Satan's army of attacks against the saints will be occurring at the same time in a very big way. Some will remain faithful and will not fall away in the great apostasy.

That does not mean that salvation is the work of the individual, of man. It's not the work of man's repentance. It's not the work of man's commitment that saved us. It's not man's faithfulness that saved us. It's the work of a man - the man Christ Jesus, which comes to the individual through his faith in the power of Christ. It's not the power of his faith that saves man. It's a simple believing in the truth that Jesus sacrificed His own life because of our sin, shed His blood and died, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, and by His own power and the power of the Father, rose again from the dead.

And we ALL need to be careful what we believe, and of our attitude to our own sin, while desiring the salvation of all, the way God does.

If what you say in your interpretation of the word "Predestination" is true then the New Testament won't be so full of warnings to all the saints about all this, because it won't be necessary to warn the believers, since our repentance would be "real", and would be the power that saves us.

FredVB · Jan 7, 2024

"You are making man the author of his own salvation by making his own depth of commitment or his own repentance the sacrifice and power that saves him."

It is certainly God's own work that saves anyone, people still need to respond, for that.

Matthew 7:12-14
"Whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets. Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. How the gate is narrow and the way is restricted that leads to life!"

Acts 10:34-35
"Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."

Acts 2:38
"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Acts 17:30-31
"The times of ignorance God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent, because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead."

FredVB · Feb 18, 2025

There are warnings from God for people to come to Christ. Some of those claim to have but have not really, and are superficially believers. They are hard to discern often, but generally they do not last. These ones still need to come to Christ, which is with essential faith, that being with repentance. We must each be responsive, while God does things for that being possible. There are further warnings, that we do not fail to grow more, none of us are just growing spiritually automatically. With real growth there will be fruits of the Spirit showing, this is what spiritual works will be from. These will not be contrary to being obedient to what God showed is needed, that any would not be rebellious.

FredVB · Feb 19, 2025

We do have to make sure of our own salvation anyway, to be sure we are changed showing it, and not having responded with error in understanding what is needed for essential faith that would not be superficial faith. There is God and Jesus saves? The enemy knows this and would tremble for that. Knowing this and saying one's self is Christian is such error, that is not the essential faith, though important in it. Those not one of the people with the essential faith, who God secures with salvation and provides what is needed for growth, are ones that would fall away from them and the true gospel... unless they come to awareness or some give that to them that they yet need what is in the essential faith of the gospel, and they will respond rightly for that.

Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

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