Is morality objective, even without God?

[BCP1928]

? Cite the post that supports your claim that I exercise moral authority over others.

You are promoting a particular moral code by attributing divine authority to it. You do so frequently over in the Politics section.

 

[Aaron112]

Other parts of the letter were "God breathed," but I think asking for his cloak was Paul's idea.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV - All Scripture is God-breathed and is - ...

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Jerry N.]

Non-Christian does not mean not devoted to YHVH, nor does it mean pagan, remembering all the apostles were non-christian in religious terms. They follow(ed) Jesus, as did the anabaptists(some of them) later who were likewise targets for martyrdom .....

If "all the apostles were non-christian," why were they all called saints?

 

[Aaron112]

PHILLIPS
But the unspiritual man simply cannot accept the matters which the Spirit deals with—they just don’t make sense to him, for, after all, you must be spiritual to see spiritual things. The spiritual man, on the other hand, has an insight into the meaning of everything, though his insight may baffle the man of the world. This is because the former is sharing in God’s wisdom, and ‘Who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?’

Incredible as it may sound, we who are spiritual have the very thoughts of Christ!

 

[Aaron112]

why were they all called saints?

In Scripture, who is a saint ? Specifically stated in Scripture, btw. Not later tradition.

 

[Jerry N.]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV - All Scripture is God-breathed and is - ...

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I agree with the verse you have quoted several times, but the phrase "all Scripture" did not mean the same thing as it does today. There are levels of inspiration. The books of Kings do not have the same level as Isaiah's proclamations of "God said." The historical accounts are true, but that doesn't mean God inspired them except in being accurate. An artists is inspired to write poems to God, but it is not the same as Moses telling the Hebrews God's commands.

 

[Ben Leevey]

So Paul’s letter to Timothy was already Scripture, and God inspired Paul to ask for his cloak? I think not. Other parts of the letter were "God breathed," but I think asking for his cloak was Paul's idea.
Here is another verse: 1 Corinthians 7:25, Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

This does not say that the scriptures are not God breathed. It says that it is not a commandment, and imperative. It is rather Spirit led advice.

 

[Ben Leevey]

So Paul’s letter to Timothy was already Scripture, and God inspired Paul to ask for his cloak?

God inspired Paul to write that in, yes.

 

[Jerry N.]

In Scripture, who is a saint ? Specifically stated in Scripture, btw. Not later tradition.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

 

[Aaron112]

OJB
To the Kehillah (congregation) of Hashem existing in Corinth, to the ones having been set apart unto kedushah (holiness) in Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, given the kri’ah to be Kadoshim, with all the ones who in every place call

MSG
I, Paul, have been called and sent by Jesus, the Messiah, according to God’s plan, along with my friend Sosthenes. I send this letter to you in God’s church at Corinth, believers cleaned up by Jesus and set apart for a God-filled life. I include in my greeting all who call out to Jesus, wherever they live. He’s their Master as well as ours!
CJB
To: God’s Messianic community in Corinth, consisting of those who have been set apart by Yeshua the Messiah and called to be God’s holy people — along with everyone everywhere who calls on the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, their Lord as well as ours:

CJB
To: God’s Messianic community in Corinth, consisting of those who have been set apart by Yeshua the Messiah and called to be God’s holy people — along with everyone everywhere who calls on the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, their Lord as well as ours:

 

[Jerry N.]

God inspired Paul to write that in, yes.

You are taking away Paul’s humanity. God doesn’t do that, as is evident by the style and word choice of all of the writers of the books of the Bible. God often allows the writers to use the intellectual gifts He gave them to convey His truths. Sometimes He doesn’t, but verses like “I liken you, my darling, to a mare among Pharaoh’s chariot horses. Your cheeks are beautiful with earrings, your neck with strings of jewels. We will make you earrings of gold, studded with silver,” (Song of Songs) allowed the writer his own artistic expression.

 

[Jerry N.]

OJB
To the Kehillah (congregation) of Hashem existing in Corinth, to the ones having been set apart unto kedushah (holiness) in Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, given the kri’ah to be Kadoshim, with all the ones who in every place call

MSG
I, Paul, have been called and sent by Jesus, the Messiah, according to God’s plan, along with my friend Sosthenes. I send this letter to you in God’s church at Corinth, believers cleaned up by Jesus and set apart for a God-filled life. I include in my greeting all who call out to Jesus, wherever they live. He’s their Master as well as ours!
CJB
To: God’s Messianic community in Corinth, consisting of those who have been set apart by Yeshua the Messiah and called to be God’s holy people — along with everyone everywhere who calls on the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, their Lord as well as ours:

CJB
To: God’s Messianic community in Corinth, consisting of those who have been set apart by Yeshua the Messiah and called to be God’s holy people — along with everyone everywhere who calls on the name of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, their Lord as well as ours:

I am Messianic, and I understand the verses, but I am not sure what point you are making.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I still don't see how that makes morality objective. Something isn't objectively true simply because some authority declares it to be true. In fact that's the basis for the exact opposite, that morality is dependent upon God's personal opinion. Now I may or may not agree with that opinion, but my acquiescing to it doesn't make it objective either.

I'm not simply dismissing the idea, but you're going to have to give me a better argument than simply because God says so.

You seem to be of the opinion that there are no objective truths. Is that correct?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Is it correct for a daughter to honour someone who beats and rapes her? That's an extreme example, but I need to know if you think that there is a limit.

People always tend to go to the extreme examples.

To honor one's parents means to appreciate, respect, obey and care for them.

Aspects of these expectations end if by doing so you would violate God's Law or cause someone else to violate God's Law.

Like in reference to divorce - the Lord Jesus Christ taught that it was permissible only if an infidelity had occurred.

Otherwise, the woman who was put away and any man who lies with her would be committing adultery.

We should appreciate our parents as they are and especially when they are faithful servants of God.

We should respect our parents as they are and especially when they are faithful servants of God.

We should obey our parents as long as their commands do not violate God's Law.

We should forgive our parents and care for them when they are in need.

The Lord Jesus Christ suffered for all - regardless of their sin - regardless of how they felt about Him - regardless of what they did to Him.

Why should she honour someone like that?

It would be limited, but she should still honor him.

Appreciate where she came from, the good things he did (if any) and to forgive and care for him.

In this particular case caring for him would include testifying against him with the hope that he would be punished for his crimes so he can repent of his sins.

 

[o_mlly]

You are promoting a particular moral code by attributing divine authority to it. You do so frequently over in the Politics section.

I asked you to cite my post that supports your claim that I exercise moral authority over others... it appears you couldn't find one. Do you know why?

 

[partinobodycular]

You seem to be of the opinion that there are no objective truths. Is that correct?

Sorry for any confusion, but yes I do believe that there are objective truths. In fact, as a solispsist my entire worldview is based upon differentiating between those things which are objectively true, and those things which people mistakenly believe to be objectively true.

HOWEVER... it must be pointed out that there's a difference between that which is true, and that which I can know to be true. For example, the moon may indeed exist when I'm not looking at it, but I have no way of knowing that. When it comes to religion, theists almost always conflate these two things... that which they believe to be true, and that which they know to be true.

This dichotomy extends beyond just the question of whether God exists. It encompasses everything from whether the bible is literally true, to whether Christ rose from the dead. These are all things that you can't know. But they are things that you can believe, and in that I have absolutely no objection. In fact I encourage you to believe whatever you want to believe. Because so long as you understand that you could be wrong, you should have enough humility to afford others the exact same freedom.

Sorry, perhaps I should have simply said yes... I believe there are objective truths.

 

[Aaron112]

These are all things that you can't know.

Jesus is the good shepherd shepherding we who are His sheep, and He tells us in line with all of His Word, in the Bible Directly as well, that we can know; even that we do know.

This cannot be known by the world, as it does not know Him. This also is written.

 

[partinobodycular]

Jesus is the good shepherd shepherding we who are His sheep, and He tells us in line with all of His Word, in the Bible Directly as well, that we can know; even that we do know.

And yet Christians disagree... which suggests to me that in the very least, your understanding of what the bible says... is wrong.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Sorry for any confusion, but yes I do believe that there are objective truths. In fact, as a solispsist my entire worldview is based upon differentiating between those things which are objectively true, and those things which people mistakenly believe to be objectively true.

HOWEVER... it must be pointed out that there's a difference between that which is true, and that which I can know to be true. For example, the moon may indeed exist when I'm not looking at it, but I have no way of knowing that. When it comes to religion, theists almost always conflate these two things... that which they believe to be true, and that which they know to be true.

This dichotomy extends beyond just the question of whether God exists. It encompasses everything from whether the bible is literally true, to whether Christ rose from the dead. These are all things that you can't know. But they are things that you can believe, and in that I have absolutely no objection. In fact I encourage you to believe whatever you want to believe. Because so long as you understand that you could be wrong, you should have enough humility to afford others the exact same freedom.

Sorry, perhaps I should have simply said yes... I believe there are objective truths.

How do you determine objective truth?

 

[Aaron112]

And yet Christians disagree... which suggests to me that in the very least, your understanding of what the bible says... is wrong.

ooops..... the Bible is never wrong.
'Christians'? Too many fake ones to identify by most means.