Is meditation wrong for a Christian?

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 1, 2020

DamianWarS said:
Let God do his thing, you're focus should be on God not on the experience.

Right. It is about being available.

We start with a word of scripture because when we start we are still filled with the activities of our lives. Our minds are swirling.

A brief scripture reading helps us to reorient.
We might also become aware of our breathing. Nothing wring with that. Breathing is a natural function we do continually. In fact, we can make it a prayer as we recall the Holy Spirit as the breath of God filling us and giving us life.

As we settle down we can reflect more on the scripture, all it might mean to us and what God might be trying to tell us.

Then at some point we might no longer feel the need for any such mental activity.
God might lead us to a place were we simply rest in His presence, fully alert, attentive, receptive. silent, still. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing dangerous.

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 1, 2020

Chris V++ said:
Apparently by focused breathing, oxygen can be channeled to stimulate the pineal gland in the brain which then produces DMT or the so called 'spirit molecule' which causes visions/dreams or hallucinations or whatever you want to call them. He says its chemically similar to LSD but is produced in the body naturally.

Now if ones practices this technique to induce visions, well, that is another matter.
For what purpose? What is the motive? I don't see spiritual or mental value.

RaymondG · Oct 1, 2020

Jonathan Walkerin said:
Serious question. Why not ask God for muscles ? Think you will get them without doing the physical work ?

It takes effort and practice to train your mind just like if you were training your muscles.

If you were to ask God for muscles, He would give them to you without you having to consciously do anything for it...... You would have no choice but to receive them.

For instance, your job may be changed in a way that you would have to lift heavier objects, or you could lose a car and find yourself running for a bus more......you could be given a new house and have to mow a lawn with a manual mower because the automatic havent come in yet..... One day you will look in the mirror and see muscles, and not know where they came from.....or maybe someone will ask have you been lifting.....you will tell them no.... You will forget that you asked God for them.....you will not realize that it was Him who gave them to you...and like many, you will never turn back to say :"Thank you"

Jonathan Walkerin · Oct 1, 2020

RaymondG said:
If you were to ask God for muscles, He would give them to you without you having to consciously do anything for it...... You would have no choice but to receive them.

For instance, your job may be changed in a way that you would have to lift heavier objects, or you could lose a car and find yourself running for a bus more......you could be given a new house and have to mow a lawn with a manual mower because the automatic havent come in yet..... One day you will look in the mirror and see muscles, and not know where they came from.....or maybe someone will ask have you been lifting.....you will tell them no.... You will forget that you asked God for them.....you will not realize that it was Him to gave them to you...and like many, you will never turn back to say :"Thank you"

By that logic the peace of mind from God we were discussing about could come after learning to meditate so perhaps it shouldn’t be considered unchristian.

RaymondG · Oct 1, 2020

Jonathan Walkerin said:
By that logic the peace of mind from God we were discussing about could come after learning to meditate so perhaps it shouldn’t be considered unchristian.

If you ask God for peace of mind, and meditation is the fastest/best way to achieve it, He will put a strong desire in your heart to meditate......you may find yourself daydreaming more.....information on meditation will find you everywhere you go......

I find it unwise to separate thoughts and actions into good or bad, this religion or that. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof.

Want to find happiness and contentment?

"Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

Francis Drake · Oct 1, 2020

Chris V++ said:
I've recently entertaining taking up meditation again. (The practice of sitting still, clearing the mind and focusing on breathing.) Ive been watching this youtube neuroscientist explain the brain function and health benefits. Before I became a Christian I dabbled in it with discernable results in the form of two brief animated visions (or dreams if you prefer) . I wasn't delusional, They just showed up like dreams behind my closed eyelids and were very brief but vivid and memorable. One was a lotus flower opening up and the other was a tiny meditating figure floating in my stomach area. I told my Buddhist friend at the time who showed me illustrations of those exact images in one of his books. I guess they are common, at least common enough to be recorded in a book.
So this neuroscientist ive been watching on youtube explains those visions. Apparently by focused breathing, oxygen can be channeled to stimulate the pineal gland in the brain which then produces DMT or the so called 'spirit molecule' which causes visions/dreams or hallucinations or whatever you want to call them. He says its chemically similar to LSD but is produced in the body naturally So presuming this is true, is this ok for a Christian to practice meditation? Also, the Bible is full of visions and dreams of the prophets so who is to say how God gave them those visions. Can meditation be a form of prayer to the Christian?

You are setting yourself up as a prime target for demonic deception and entry.
Nowhere in scripture does it tell us to empty our minds, on the contrary, we should fill our minds and hearts with spiritual truths.

If you empty your mind as you describe, then demons will start to fill it with stuff that will take you away from truth. You can see how easy demons can deceive you from your Buddhism encounters. These were Buddhism demons at work.

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 1, 2020

Francis Drake said:
If you empty your mind as you describe, then demons will start to fill it with stuff that will take you away from truth

That is not how the mind works. An important aspect of meditation is observing thoughts as they come and go without attaching to them. Demons have no power over that. they may try to throw thoughts at you but just like any thoughts, we can let them pass with disinterest.

RaymondG · Oct 1, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Nowhere in scripture does it tell us to empty our minds, on the contrary, we should fill our minds and hearts with spiritual truths.

???
" Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:"

"Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?"

"34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Francis Drake said:
If you empty your mind as you describe, then demons will start to fill it with stuff that will take you away from truth.

Do you also believe that God can fill the minds of those who sit and listen......or is this something only demons can do?

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 1, 2020

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Meditation is the disciple of sober mindedness, watchfulness.

nolidad · Oct 1, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
"Empty" is a misleading term.

If we sit in silence with an interior that is still but alert and we have a deepened awareness of God's presence is that "empty"? Not really.

With an alacrity of attention, with a listening heart we may not have all the clutter of our usually thinking mind, but it is not empty. Rather, it is more subtle and we may begin to notice things that we usually do not. And we might even recognize that our thoughts and feelings come and go. We do not have to identify with them like we usually do.

Well that is not emptying but stilling our hearts for the purpose of obedience to God.

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 1, 2020

nolidad said:
Well that is not emptying but stilling our hearts for the purpose of obedience to God.

Yes, but how would you define "emptying" and is it really something people try to do?

Tropical Wilds · Oct 1, 2020

zippy2006 said:
While this deserves a new thread, it is worthwhile to note that meditation is a religious practice through and through. The West has secularized and commodified it (and baptized it into our cult of health) but the fact remains. Comparing meditation to a jog or a deep breath is misleading. Meditation is only comparable to jogging according to a Western narrative of revisionist history.

While meditation can be spiritual in practice, it does have non-religious roots that coincide with its development as a spiritual practice. First records of what we’d consider meditation occur in 1,500 BC in Asia, where people meditated to achieve mental clarity before a skirmish. Hindu texts describe it as a means to clear ignorance and stubbornness and, as such, should be practiced by any and all who seek to be well-rounded people. In China, secular meditation and rhythmic breathing was used as a widespread and non-religious treatment for everything from headaches to cancer to “poor humors.” That practice was brought to Japan around the same time. It was also a common practice in what is now England and a routine practice by people in what would be Romania now.

Walking and/or running meditation was a widespread occurrence on all populated continents and while it was all known by various names, it was all forms of meditation. In a non-secular sense, Shinto and Buddhist people very commonly practice walking meditation. Running meditation was in widespread use in Japan as well as Greece and Italy (in Japan as a religious or secular practice, Greece and Italy as secular) in the BC eras. Walking meditation was recorded in the Hindu faith in 1,110 BC.

(Again, I am not opposed to contemplation, or hesychasm, or meditation, but that doesn't mean that I think meditation is a secular health practice.)

Click to expand...

Well, by all means you can think what you want, but given it’s history and current usage, it seems pretty obvious that meditation without religion is common, historically relevant, and is readily accessible to all.

Click to expand...

zippy2006 · Oct 1, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
While meditation can be spiritual in practice, it does have non-religious roots that coincide with its development as a spiritual practice...

You make many claims here. Do you have any sources for these claims?

Tropical Wilds · Oct 1, 2020

zippy2006 said:
You make many claims here. Do you have any sources for these claims?

Besides being on year two of four in a meditation intensive via Shogan-ji Temple which requires a profound and extensive knowledge of the history of meditation?

Well, find a Shinto or Zen Temple that streams their services, you can see most of them have walking meditations during the second or third hour of wakefulness. Or you can read:

An Introduction to Shinto by David Chart which has an extensive detailed account of the evolution of meditation throughout Asia as well as its use as secular medicine. That one even has a sample walking meditation in Chapter 2 (or maybe that was meditative dance).

Shinto: The Way of the Kami (or The Kami Way) by Sokyo Ono has information on chapter 1 as well as links to the various record keeping organizations that deal with Japanese history. Chapter 5, page 110 and onward gives you all sorts of info.

Japanese Mind: The Understanding of Contemporary Japanese Culture by Osamu Ikeno is an incredible and through dissection of secular and societal evolving of spiritual concepts starting way back in 1500 BC. Check out the chapters ‘The Dō,’ ‘Iitoko-Dori,’ ‘Nemawashi,’ and ‘Shūdan Ishiki.’

“The Essence of The Heart of Japan” by Motohisa Yamakage is a hard read, but is also incredible. Chapter 1, specifically ‘The tragedy of not having any’ and ‘Atheism and the Faithless Faithful’ are helpful. Appendix 2, about Chinkon will have info you want.

“Just Enough” by Gesshin Greenwood is, yes, a cookbook, but woven all through it are long and well-researched stories about the author’s time living in a Zen monastery for several years. There’s detailed, detailed chapters about active meditation (meditation through running and and walking) as well as what closely resembles transcendental meditation during cooking meals and how it makes the chef one of the most vital people in the community they maintain.

A Monk’s Guide to a Clean House and Mind by Shoukei Matsumoto has some in the chapter about maintaining floors that talks about walking meditation, the history of it, how it translates to the routines they use in the temple he lives at, and why it’s important. Granted, he shares the final part through the prism of spirituality, but when he discusses it coming to Japan via China, he touches on the secular origins.

The Manual of Zen by Daietz Teitaro Suzuki is also helpful. There are a ton of translations, but, again, lots of history on meditation and how Zen Buddhism adopted meditation as a spiritual practice after seeing its wide success as a secular treatment for illness and in the proficiency of warriors who used it before battles.

Then, of course, there’s Dan Harris who wrote two books that have become the byword in secular meditation. 10% Happier talks about secular meditation in such detail and includes interviews from secular and spiritual meditation experts. He is an Atheist (or Agnostic?) and quite a famous and respected news anchor, so his stuff is impeccably researched. I think ‘Meditation for Figity Skeptics” has some information about history too, but that’s mostly about his traveling with a secular meditation expert and putting theories about meditation to the real-world test.

Then there’s National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health’s article ‘Meditation: In Depth,’ and Dr. Shapiro co-wrote an incredible paper called ‘Mindfulness-Based Interventions in Psychiatry’ and I think he may have also done an article called ‘Common and Dissociable Neural Activity After Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction and Relaxation Response Programs’ too... Or maybe that shared an author with ‘Meditation and Mind-Body Health: Increased BDNF, Cortisol Awakening Response, and Altered Inflammatory Marker Expression after a 3-Month Yoga and Meditation Retreat’ which was published in the NEJoM... To be frank, it has been about 15 months since I wrote my paper (‘The Effects of Being ‘Well-Meditated:’ The Neurological, Physiological, and Psychiatric Impacts of Integrated Meditation Practices on Autoimmune Disorder Patients’), so some of the textbook-y resources I used kind of bleed together.

Or there’s... You know... Google. That’s an option too.

ISteveB · Oct 1, 2020

Chris V++ said:
I've recently entertaining taking up meditation again. (The practice of sitting still, clearing the mind and focusing on breathing.) Ive been watching this youtube neuroscientist explain the brain function and health benefits.

There are two different kinds of meditation....

biblical and unibiblical.
You just described the unbiblical form of meditation.
Biblical mediation is not clearing the mind, it's filling the mind with God's Word.

From Philippians 4:8-9
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.

From Isaiah 26:3-4
3 You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.
4 Trust in the LORD forever,
For in YAH, the LORD, is everlasting strength.

From Colossians 3:1-4
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

From Romans 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

From Psalm 1
1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,

And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree

Planted by the rivers of water,

That brings forth its fruit in its season,

Whose leaf also shall not wither;

And whatever he does shall prosper.

From JEremiah 17:5-10
5 Thus says the LORD:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
And makes flesh his strength,
Whose heart departs from the LORD.
6 For he shall be like a shrub in the desert,
And shall not see when good comes,
But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness,
In a salt land which is not inhabited.
7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
And whose hope is the LORD.
8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters,
Which spreads out its roots by the river,
And will not fear[fn] when heat comes;
But its leaf will be green,
And will not be anxious in the year of drought,
Nor will cease from yielding fruit.
9 “The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
10 I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.

I can readily go on here for a long time, but I hope you see.....
As followers of Jesus, our job is to focus our thinking, our thoughts on God's Word.
3 You will keep him in perfect peace,

Whose mind is stayed on You,

Because he trusts in You.
4 Trust in the LORD forever,
For in YAH, the LORD, is everlasting strength.

Before I became a Christian I dabbled in it with discernable results in the form of two brief animated visions (or dreams if you prefer) . I wasn't delusional, They just showed up like dreams behind my closed eyelids and were very brief but vivid and memorable. One was a lotus flower opening up and the other was a tiny meditating figure floating in my stomach area. I told my Buddhist friend at the time who showed me illustrations of those exact images in one of his books. I guess they are common, at least common enough to be recorded in a book.
So this neuroscientist ive been watching on youtube explains those visions. Apparently by focused breathing, oxygen can be channeled to stimulate the pineal gland in the brain which then produces DMT or the so called 'spirit molecule' which causes visions/dreams or hallucinations or whatever you want to call them. He says its chemically similar to LSD but is produced in the body naturally So presuming this is true, is this ok for a Christian to practice meditation? Also, the Bible is full of visions and dreams of the prophets so who is to say how God gave them those visions. Can meditation be a form of prayer to the Christian?

biblical meditation--- it's part of the life of the christian.
God tells us in Romans 8 ---

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Only by focusing our thinking in spiritual things.... as Jesus said in John 6-- my words they are spirit and they are life........ are we able to live in a manner which honors God.

Please also read 2 Peter 1:2-13

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Fruitful Growth in the Faith

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Peter’s Approaching Death

12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 13 Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you,

This should give you plenty to engage in biblical meditation.

zippy2006 · Oct 1, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
Besides being on year two of four in a meditation...

I will keep your thesis in mind, but from looking at the first two sources and the claim that Zen Buddhism learned meditation from seculars and warriors, I do not fully believe you. I don't doubt that there are current secular adaptations, but I am doubtful that meditation has secular roots.

Akita Suggagaki · Oct 1, 2020

zippy2006 said:
I will keep your thesis in mind, but from looking at the first two sources and the claim that Zen Buddhism learned meditation from seculars and warriors, I do not fully believe you. I don't doubt that there are current secular adaptations, but I am doubtful that meditation has secular roots.

I think it ha probably always been part of an inner seeking. But is that always religious?

Tropical Wilds · Oct 1, 2020

zippy2006 said:
I will keep your thesis in mind, but from looking at the first two sources and the claim that Zen Buddhism learned meditation from seculars and warriors, I do not fully believe you. I don't doubt that there are current secular adaptations, but I am doubtful that meditation has secular roots.

Well, I’ve presented it all right there for you. You don’t have to believe me, but that also doesn’t change the facts that meditation has co-existing secular and spiritual roots and stating you don’t believe it doesn’t make it less true. Some of the secular uses related to medicine and conflict, some of it related to education and the personal pursuit of knowledge. Sometimes practices started as a secular pursuit and were adopted to religious uses, sometimes the other way around. The history of meditation is quite vast, especially once you explore its use in Ancient Greece and even the farming regions of China.

Westerners have their own practices that started as religious and became secular, and vice versa. I’m not sure why it’s impossible to believe it happened in other areas throughout the ages. I think it must boil down to the fundamental differences between East and West. The East tends to focus on the collective and the forwarding of the whole to the benefit of the whole, West tends to focus on self and the forwarding of one’s self interests for the primary benefit of the self. For one in a self-first society where things like giving credit and clearly defining status are of the utmost importance, it is hard to see how the collective-first society doesn’t get so bent out of shape about declaring who started what and the fluid blending of influences over the years.

bekkilyn · Oct 1, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
A Monk’s Guide to a Clean House and Mind by Shoukei Matsumoto has some in the chapter about maintaining floors that talks about walking meditation, the history of it, how it translates to the routines they use in the temple he lives at, and why it’s important. Granted, he shares the final part through the prism of spirituality, but when he discusses it coming to Japan via China, he touches on the secular origins.

I LOVE this book! One of the most inspiring (and spiritually inspiring) books I've read! (And re-read!)

zippy2006 · Oct 1, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
Well, I’ve presented it all right there for you. You don’t have to believe me, but that also doesn’t change the facts that meditation has co-existing secular and spiritual roots and stating you don’t believe it doesn’t make it less true.

But you stating that it is true doesn't make it true, nor does citing a bunch of unrelated books and claiming that the thesis you are proposing exists in the crevices and appendices, without any quotes or evidence. Indeed I have good evidence to believe that your claim about Zen Buddhism is flat false due to the account of a friend who lived with Zen Buddhists in Japan for over a year, not to mention my own reading on Japanese Buddhism. All the same, I will consider your thesis going forward.

(The sources you offered were 1) religious, and 2) recent secular experiments. None of them focus on non-religious or non-spiritual meditation practice in the ancient world.)

Is meditation wrong for a Christian?

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