is meaning required?

[Chesterton]

Perhaps it's your web browser ? I've noticed that Firefox doesn't always allow me to quote things. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, I use Safari.

Well I've tried with IE and Chrome. I get that problem of occasionally not being able to quote, and I've seen other people mention it, but for about a year it's been consistent with quatona. I can never quote him. He's unquotanable.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, it does not require one. Because it has one, knowing it or not.
It is decided by individual, but the decision may not be a right one.

Who decides if it is right?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm not entirely sure that it's different at all. Sure, you learn the sign means "stop" because society teaches you so...but it's not as if the sign has a meaning intrinsic to itself.

The stop sign doesn't have meaning; it has instructions.

Ken

 

[TillICollapse]

Well I've tried with IE and Chrome. I get that problem of occasionally not being able to quote, and I've seen other people mention it, but for about a year it's been consistent with quatona. I can never quote him. He's unquotanable.

Bwahaha

Well maybe it's a combination issue with the site and some of our browsers then, or something about specific posters profiles that sets something off :-/

Oh well lol.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The stop sign doesn't have meaning; it has instructions.

Ken

Yea?

If the instructions were worn and gone but a red octagon were left...would you still stop?

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree with Ken that it is decided on by each individual, but you have to remember what this means in regard to atheists. It means they're making up something baseless out of thin air, the same thing they often accuse religious folks of doing.

Yup, at best it's Nietzschean. Things have meaning because they will them to do so. Which is fine but I think it overestimates the power of the human will, to say nothing of the fact that Nietzsche's philosophy is monstrous in its implications.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not entirely sure that it's different at all. Sure, you learn the sign means "stop" because society teaches you so...but it's not as if the sign has a meaning intrinsic to itself.

That works both ways... for instance, I could, for the sake of arguement, suggest that you are irreligious because you have been conditioned to be that way, not because of any inherent truthfulness on your part in rejecting the Christian faith.

Once we start arguing that all our decisions are determined by social conditioning, there is no point in rational debate.

Now, back to that stop sign. Christians can deduce meaning from the world because they believe God has created the world rationally and intelligibly. So a stop sign does indeed have an objective meaning, one that is not merely socially conditioned: a stop sign has the specific meaning it does ultimately because God, as a benevolent creator, made a lawful universe.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yup, at best it's Nietzschean. Things have meaning because they will them to do so. Which is fine but I think it overestimates the power of the human will, to say nothing of the fact that Nietzsche's philosophy is monstrous in its implications.

Not that I know a lot about nihilism...but what does being "monstrous in it's implications" have to do with anything? Do you agree with philosophies based on how warm and fuzzy they make you feel? Do you choose them based upon how accurately describe the world?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That works both ways... for instance, I could, for the sake of arguement, suggest that you are irreligious because you have been conditioned to be that way, not because of any inherent truthfulness on your part in rejecting the Christian faith.

Once we start arguing that all our decisions are determined by social conditioning, there is no point in rational debate.

Now, back to that stop sign. Christians can deduce meaning from the world because they believe God has created the world rationally and intelligibly. So a stop sign does indeed have an objective meaning, one that is not merely socially conditioned: a stop sign has the specific meaning it does ultimately because God, as a benevolent creator, made a lawful universe.

I don't see what god has to do with stop signs or how you came to that conclusion. I also don't know why you think I was suggesting that society produces the meaning for everything... the example was a stop sign....I was explaining the example only.

Since we're making this personal... I don't know how you expect to explain my upbringing being the cause of my atheism. Both my parents believe in god. I simply wasn't indoctrinated...I thought it out for myself. So go ahead...tell me how society got its hooks in me on that one.

So clearly some meanings are entirely subjective and personal...like for example, what does it mean to you to be "in love"? We may have similarities in our meanings for that...but chances are it's still entirely personal and unique to each of us. So that is a good comparison for the meaning of life to me...it's personal and unique to myself.

Unlike you...society gave you your life's meaning.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yea?

If the instructions were worn and gone but a red octagon were left...would you still stop?

What does that have to do with the fact that a stop sign does not have meaning/purpose; that it only has function/instructions?

Ken

 

[Ana the Ist]

What does that have to do with the fact that a stop sign does not have meaning/purpose; that it only has function/instructions?

Ken

Well if it only has functionality because of its "instructions" then once we remove them and it's a red octagon...do you still stop?

 

[Ken-1122]

Well if it only has functionality because of its "instructions" then once we remove them and it's a red octagon...do you still stop?

It would be a personal judgment call. If I decide the red octagon sign is meant to be a stop sign, but was just faded due to environmental elements, I would stop because I know what it is supposed to say. If I decide someone from the city purposely took the words off so the sign would be ignored, I would not stop.

Ken

 

[Ana the Ist]

It would be a personal judgment call. If I decide the red octagon sign is meant to be a stop sign, but was just faded due to environmental elements, I would stop because I know what it is supposed to say. If I decide someone from the city purposely took the words off so the sign would be ignored, I would not stop.

Ken

So...in the instances in which you stop...why stop? Is it the color, the shape, the placement, the entire context of these things and the meaning which society has created for them?

 

[Ken-1122]

So...in the instances in which you stop...why stop? Is it the color, the shape, the placement, the entire context of these things and the meaning which society has created for them?

All those things including the function society has created them for

Ken

 

[TillICollapse]

So...in the instances in which you stop...why stop? Is it the color, the shape, the placement, the entire context of these things and the meaning which society has created for them?

I see your point, but I don't think the stop sign has inherent meaning. Does a bird stop when it sees a stop sign with clear "STOP" on it ? Does it stop when it sees a faded one ? No to either.

So why does a human stop ? Does a baby stop when it sees a red octagon ? No, thus the meaning isn't in the sign.

is Th15 1nt3ll1g1bl3 wr1t1ng ? Yes, it's intelligible, even though the words are misspelled and even lack letters. You still know what I'm trying to say, not because the words themselves have meaning, rather we share similar conditioning when it comes to the English language.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I see your point, but I don't think the stop sign has inherent meaning. Does a bird stop when it sees a stop sign with clear "STOP" on it ? Does it stop when it sees a faded one ? No to either.

So why does a human stop ? Does a baby stop when it sees a red octagon ? No, thus the meaning isn't in the sign.

is Th15 1nt3ll1g1bl3 wr1t1ng ? Yes, it's intelligible, even though the words are misspelled and even lack letters. You still know what I'm trying to say, not because the words themselves have meaning, rather we share similar conditioning when it comes to the English language.

I think you kind of get my point. I'm saying nothing has "inherent" meaning...it's all created in the mind. Including the sign, life...whatever.

The sign has meaning because you give it so....as does your life. They aren't really different...which was my original point.

 

[TillICollapse]

I think you kind of get my point. I'm saying nothing has "inherent" meaning...it's all created in the mind. Including the sign, life...whatever.

The sign has meaning because you give it so....as does your life. They aren't really different...which was my original point.

Oh

I didn't think that you would have said the "sign itself has meaning inherent to it," yet I also didn't see why you were stuck on the sign, so I thought maybe you were confusing yourself a bit lol But I must have jumped into the convo at the wrong point. Sorry I got bored for a minute and picked a convo at random to jump into. I should have known better Carry on lol ...

 

[Ana the Ist]

All those things including the function society has created them for

Ken

I'd still argue it's function is different from its meaning...sure, it doesn't function well without its meaning...but they are still different.

A stop sign's meaning is "stop". It's function might be described as something like..."to help direct the flow of traffic."

 

[FireDragon76]

Not that I know a lot about nihilism...but what does being "monstrous in it's implications" have to do with anything? Do you agree with philosophies based on how warm and fuzzy they make you feel? Do you choose them based upon how accurately describe the world?

Certainly, when a philosophy seems to suggest a negative outlook on the world, I tend to question its ethics. And given how often atheists bring up ethical issues, I feel apt to do the same.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'd still argue it's function is different from its meaning...sure, it doesn't function well without its meaning...but they are still different.

A stop sign's meaning is "stop". It's function might be described as something like..."to help direct the flow of traffic."

Okay; I see your point. But when people say they have meaning or purpose in their lives; I think they mean they are doing something that is important to them.
This type of meaning requires an ability to make decisions rather than just being a tool or a slave put in place to serve it's owner.

Ken