Is mathematics anti-God?

[seebs]

I have seen many people argue that evolution is anti-God because it does not talk about how God is necessary.

Is mathematics anti-God? Mathematics never talks about God. We never say "by God's grace, the cardinality of the reals is greater than the cardinality of the integers". We do proofs. Mathematics never allows for miracles. We don't say "well, the power set of a group G has subgroups of the same order as G, except when God changes it".

Mathematics is performed without any need for, or reference to, God.

Is this anti-God?

If not, then what makes other things which are performed without reference to God "anti-God"?

 

[Ark Guy]

Mathematics is not physical. Mathematics did not evolve from something primitave.

 

[notto]

How about theories of planetary motion? Are they anti-God?

 

[seebs]

Mathematics has certainly been evolving for millennia.

However, I don't see what "not physical" has to do with anything.

Are you saying that a field of study is "anti-God" if:
1. It doesn't refer to God.
and
2. It's physical.

?

What about, say, structural engineering? There's no references to God in that, either. Is it anti-God?

 

[Ark Guy]

The bible says God made the planets and set them in motion (inferred from scripture).

Your models of planetary motion claim there was no need for God in the creation of the planets. It happened with out God.

You are confusing the laws of physics and their application with origination.

 

[notto]

Your models of planetary motion claim there was no need for God in the creation of the planets.

Where does it say that? Please be specific.

 

[Ark Guy]

Lets start from the beginning....the scientific theories of the big bang require no God.

In other words they claim God had no part in it.

 

[notto]

Lets start from the beginning....the scientific theories of the big bang require no God.

In other words they claim God had no part in it.

Where? Please be specific?

 

[notto]

Mathematics is not physical. Mathematics did not evolve from something primitave.

And science only examines the physical and makes no claims on anything spritual or the existence or non-existence of God. I think we are making some headway here.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Where do numbers come from? Do they come from God? Are they an invention of Man?

How about the way in which numbers interact. They were, after all, first used only to count stuff. BUt look at what they can to; geometry, calculus, statistics, triginometry, algebra, and so on. All those complicated interactions, yet no need for God to be invoked or interceed in any of them. How is that possible?

IF you believe that 2+2=4, then you are an atheist, even if you won't admit it. YOu must say 2+2+God's will = 4 in order to be a True Christian.

 

[Ark Guy]

Where does it say that? Please be specific.

Pick a text book...any text book.

 

[seebs]

The bible says God made the planets and set them in motion (inferred from scripture).

Your models of planetary motion claim there was no need for God in the creation of the planets. It happened with out God.

You are confusing the laws of physics and their application with origination.

The laws of physics are what they are whether or not God set them up. Same for mathematics.

That we can study things without reference to God doesn't make God irrelevant to our lives; it just means that the world is as it is, no matter how it got that way.

 

[seebs]

Ark Guy, set theory doesn't say anything about God either.

I simply can't understand your position here. You pick some things and attack them as "anti-God" for not talking about God, but other things that never mention God are fine by you. Why?

 

[Ark Guy]

Hello...seebs, the theory of evolution has made the claim that it doesn't need God.
It has made the claim that it is a completely natural process.

It is anti-God.

Now if you want to go through the entire list of scientific fields have at it. But if you can't see the differance then I really feel sorry for you.

The bible is silent on the other scientific fields..it is very noisy concerning the creation.

The bible lays claims to God (Jesus) making the world and all that is in it....the evos lay claim to a process void of God.

Evolution is anti-God.

 

[seebs]

Hello...seebs, the theory of evolution has made the claim that it doesn't need God.
It has made the claim that it is a completely natural process.

Mathematics doesn't need God, either.

However, the claim that a process is natural doesn't mean God didn't initiate the process; just that we can observe the process whether or not we believe God started it.

It is anti-God.

No, it isn't. Evolution is silent on the God question.

The bible is silent on the other scientific fields..it is very noisy concerning the creation.

Ahh. So, the big concern here is whether or not evolution is anti-Bible.

The bible lays claims to God (Jesus) making the world and all that is in it....the evos lay claim to a process void of God.

No. The process merely procedes in a way we can understand anyway.

I personally believe that God maintains the laws of physics; that, without God's will, there is no gravity. After all, He is the creator of all things, yes?

However, the theory of gravity does not require that we postulate that God enforces it. It doesn't care.

Evolution is anti-God.

Seems to me like you're mistaking your preferred interpretation of the Bible for God. Sounds like idolatry to me.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Evolutionary theory neither incorporates God, nor does it reject God. YOu have failed to demonstrate that "evolution is anti_god". Like any and every scientific theory, evolution simply does not address the existance of God - one way or another.


If evolutionary thoery is indeed "anti-God", how is it then that so many people (even on this forum) can accept the existance of both? Are those of us who claim to believe in God and accept evolution a bunch of liars?

I require no proof to believe in God. That is a matter of faith. So you cannot claim that I (or anyone else for that matter) are being deluded by saying we believe in God. If someone says the believe in God then so be it - they believe in Him (unless they are outright lying about it).

I am begining to see that your faith is so fragile that you require scientific proof of God's existance. You reject mainstream scientific explanations and accept only those which conform to your world view.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Yes.
Math is evil.
But I failed college algebra twice so I may be a little jaded.

 

[Ark Guy]

I believe that I have demonstrated that evolution anti-God. of course no matter what I write will be good enough for you.

Once again the bible says no evolution. It presents a different means...special creation.

Evolution, according to the scientist has the ability to work with out God from start to finish. No need for God. It contradicts scripture thus making it anti-God.

 

[notto]

I believe that I have demonstrated that evolution anti-God. of course no matter what I write will be good enough for you.

We would accept any reference to the scientific theory of evolution that as part of it construction (observations, experiments, conclusions, etc) says that there is no God.

You have failed to provide any of this and have failed to demonstrate that evolution is anti-God. This can also be evidence by the many Christians who accept the scientific theory of evolution who believe no such thing.

 

[seebs]

I believe that I have demonstrated that evolution anti-God. of course no matter what I write will be good enough for you.

You have not demonstrated it. To demonstrate it, you would have to offer a sound argument. Also, we can check your argument by seeing whether applying the exact same argument elsewhere produces nonsense, or whether you always accept it.

Your argument:
"Evolution teaches that life can arise without God, therefore it is anti-God."

The same argument:
"Mathematics teaches that the cardinality of the reals can be greater than the cardinality of the integers without God, therefore it is anti-God."

Either you should accept both, or neither; it's the same argument each time.

Once again the bible says no evolution. It presents a different means...special creation.

The Bible uses a very structured narrative to tell us about the nature of our relationship with God. Anything beyond that is your interpretation.

Evolution, according to the scientist has the ability to work with out God from start to finish. No need for God. It contradicts scripture thus making it anti-God.

It doesn't contradict scripture; it contradicts your interpretation of scripture. Unless you're God, that's no big deal. People are wrong all the time.