Is magic moral?

[kopilo]

I'm not panning all forms of alternative medicine. Just those that don't seem to be able to stand up to a properly designed clinical trial.I think you're referring to misdiagnosis. It's a common enough problem. That's why people joke about physicians "practicing" medicine.

ahh ok, it is just that I have heard some people make such claims, also everyone can do with a laugh every now and then

BTW, there are many medical practitioners who don't accept the idea that the constellation of symptoms tagged as "chronic fatigue syndrome" are clear enough to be diagnostically useful. As of the present, there are no clear diagnostic tests for CFS and no effective treatment protocols. I'm not an MD, but a psychologist, and so far as I have seen, treatments listed in the medical literature include everything from antibiotics to steriods to family cognitive therapy to glycemic diets to megavitamin therapies. Most of what exists, thus far, is a collection of anecdotal evidence and a lot of unverifiable claims.

True, it can be diagnosed as ross river virus, a few other things.. some results even suggest something along the lines of ricketsia (or however it is spelt, a strand mutation from the bubonic plague).

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Most holistic healers would not opt or encourage holistic care over "traditional" medical care. Most holistic or alternative healers encourage their care in addition to, or as a suppliment of, the care you're already getting from a doctor. Just as very few doctors would say "You have cancer, you should go see a alternative healer for your treatment," very few alternative or holistic healers would say "Oh, you have cancer... You came to the right place instead of going to a doctor."

I know I have patients who are coping with cancer, infertility, migraines, high blood pressure, IBS, abnormal thyroid function, pregnancy, depression... All of them are seeing doctors for their primary treatment, but they see me for some combination of the following:

1. Supplimental holistic and alternative care to aid what their doctor already is doing for them
2. Comfort care or pain management care
3. Mental health and wellbeing (long term illnesses carry a lot of stress and doctors do not work on the mental effects of illness as they should in many cases)
4. Management of symptoms brought on by doctor's care (as in, chemo theraphy, medication side effects, so on and so forth)
5. Spiritual health and wellbeing

My instructions never superceede a doctor's instructions, and I never ever tell a patient to stop seeing their doctor or to stop taking their medications. In fact, part of my contract for service clearly states in big, bold, underlined letters that even if you feel relief from my treatments it does not substitute your doctor's care and the patient shouldn't stop going to the doctor... If I find they have done so in favor of relying on my treatment, I terminate our contract and they are not allowed to continue care with me until they have a signed note from their doctor that they are back under regular doctor's care.

Any alternative medicine or holistic healer who tells you to stop seeing your doctor or stop taking medications is not normal and is not good at what they do.

It sounds like a sweet deal. Nothing really expected and the doctor takes all the responsiblity. People actually pay money for that and how does all that even deal with the OP on "magic" BTW?

 

[Zakath]

...Any alternative medicine or holistic healer who tells you to stop seeing your doctor or stop taking medications is not normal and is not good at what they do.

A time-tested response to jail terms and fines given out over the years for "practicing medicine without a license". Reiki is frequently billed as a "spiritual practice" rather than a medical one, to avoid litigation.

Many Reiki practitioners have chosen to become ordained ministers as a way to protect themselves from the Medical Practice Act (practicing medicine without a license). The value of this method of legal defense is questionable...
- International Center for Reiki Free Online Newsletter - March 2003

This might make things clearer for some readers...

The Federation of State Medical Boards of the United States defines the practice of medicine to include the following:

• advertising, holding out to the public, or representing in any manner that one is authorized to practice medicine in the jurisdiction;
• offering or undertaking to prescribe, give, or administer any drug or medicine for the use of any other person;
• offering or undertaking to prevent or to diagnose, correct, and/or treat in any manner or by any means, methods, devices, or instrumentalities any disease, illness, pain, wound, fracture, infirmity, deformity, defect, or abnormal physical or mental condition of any person, including the management of pregnancy and parturition;
• offering or undertaking to perform any surgical operation upon any person; and
• using the designation Doctor, Doctor of Medicine, Doctor of Osteopathy, Physician and Surgeon, Dr., M.D., D.O., or any combination thereof in the conduct of any occupation or profession pertaining to the prevention, diagnosis, or treatment of human disease or condition (unless such a designation is in addition to the designation of another healing art (e.g., dentistry), for which one holds a valid license in the jurisdiction). Source

Here is a partial list of charges that some alternative medicine practitioners have been convicted of in recent years:

• practicing medicine without a license
• larceny (theft)
• grand larceny (theft of large amounts)
• grand larceny by false pretenses
• criminal recklessness
• involuntary manslaughter (when a patient dies)
• illegal selling of drugs
• conspiracy to cheat and defraud by false pretenses
• false advertising of a drug
• falsely advertising a drug to have an effect upon cancer
• selling and offering for sale an adulterated drug
• selling and offering for sale a misbranded drug
• unlawfully selling drugs or compounds for the alleviation of cancer
• fraudulently providing treatment as being effective in treating cancer

What kinds of practitioners have been successfully prosecuted?

• Massage therapists
• Herbal medicine therapists
• Unlicensed nutritional consultants
• Health food store owners
• Licensed physicians utilizing unapproved therapies

Families of former patients have also been awarded millions in damages by sympathetic juries in recent years.

There is an ongoing battle in the courts over individual's right to freedom of choice versus protecting the uninformed public from predatory fraudulent practice. How it will be resolved (if ever) remains to be seen.

 

[kopilo]

It sounds like a sweet deal. Nothing really expected and the doctor takes all the responsiblity. People actually pay money for that and how does all that even deal with the OP on "magic" BTW?

some people might consider riki "magic", maybe it has to do with the moral implications of if someone believed they could cure other people with "magic", etc.

 

[kopilo]

A time-tested response to jail terms and fines given out over the years for "practicing medicine without a license". Reiki is frequently billed as a "spiritual practice" rather than a medical one, to avoid litigation.

This might make things clearer for some readers...
[/list]Here is a partial list of charges that some alternative medicine practitioners have been convicted of in recent years:

• practicing medicine without a license
• larceny (theft)
• grand larceny (theft of large amounts)
• grand larceny by false pretenses
• criminal recklessness
• involuntary manslaughter (when a patient dies)
• illegal selling of drugs
• conspiracy to cheat and defraud by false pretenses
• false advertising of a drug
• falsely advertising a drug to have an effect upon cancer
• selling and offering for sale an adulterated drug
• selling and offering for sale a misbranded drug
• unlawfully selling drugs or compounds for the alleviation of cancer
• fraudulently providing treatment as being effective in treating cancer

What kinds of practitioners have been successfully prosecuted?

• Massage therapists
• Herbal medicine therapists
• Unlicensed nutritional consultants
• Health food store owners
• Licensed physicians utilizing unapproved therapies

Families of former patients have also been awarded millions in damages by sympathetic juries in recent years.

There is an ongoing battle in the courts over individual's right to freedom of choice versus protecting the uninformed public from predatory fraudulent practice. How it will be resolved (if ever) remains to be seen.

It would be interesting to know who the prosecuters were but that is off the topic.

 

[Zakath]

It would be interesting to know who the prosecuters were.

Various state and local government prosecutors, most likely. I imagine if someone wanted to do the research for indvidiual cases, they could find out.

 

[Zakath]

some people might consider riki "magic", maybe it has to do with the moral implications of if someone believed they could cure other people with "magic", etc.

It's "magick" in the same fashion that Roman Catholic transubstantiation or the Christian "new birth" is magick.

 

[kopilo]

It's "magick" in the same fashion that Roman Catholic transubstantiation or the Christian "new birth" is magick.

Ahh ok, thanks for the extra info.. I was using the word "magic" because I thought Riki was drawing traditional Japanese kunji in the air above someones body.. also "magic" is the word the OP used.

ahh dw, I see where you are meaning. thanks!

 

[Zakath]

...If one of my cancer patients goes into remission, the doctor is credited with saving her. Rarely does anybody ever say "No, it was my Reiki healer."

And it will continue to be rarely until Reiki practitioners can set up verified clinical trials to demonstrate the efficacy of their practices and compare them to standard medical practices.

Since Reiki is "believed to have begun in Tibet several thousand years ago" (source), why do you suppose no one has done so???

Osteopathy is a relatively recent form of treatment and yet it is recognized as a valid medical methodology...

 

[kopilo]

And it will continue to be rarely until Reiki practitioners can set up verified clinical trials to demonstrate the efficacy of their practices and compare them to standard medical practices.

Since Reiki is "believed to have begun in Tibet several thousand years ago" (source), why do you suppose no one has done so???

Osteopathy is a relatively recent form of treatment and yet it is recognized as a valid medical methodology...

Because well in Australia it has come out of universities and govenment grants, also looks to be some combination of chriopratic with kinsiology, well it is "working with the muscles".

 

[Zakath]

In my state, I have to be licensed by the same people that license massage therapy to be a Reiki healer or do Reiki and Gemstone therapy.

So Reiki and massage therapy are about the same caliber of medical practice in your state.

And I find that telling people to stay on medication has everything to do with them thinking they feel better and stopping what the doctor tells them to do, and not that somebody in the alternative medicine field told them to stop.

So it's not like the medication actually works, eh? It's all in their mind...

My massage therapist tells me that even though she's doing work that makes my back feel better, it is not a substitute for physical therapy and if I choose to not do physical therapy, then I won't get better.

You have a massage therapist? Why am I not surprised...

While it may avoid litigation in some cases, the advice is still sound.

Advice that helps you avoid litigation is sound advice.

...The poor actions of a few do not represent the vast majority.

True.

For every one alternative healer who gets in trouble for illegal activities, there are more who you'll never hear of.

People engage in all kinds of activities and never get caught. For every drug dealer or con man that gets prosecuted there are scores who never do...

And I'd imagine that for a number of those who do get into trouble there is a miscommunication or a patient looking for a magic pill or magic procedure that will suddenly make them better.

Imagine that. People seeking medical treatment so they can feel better. How unreasonable.

One of the worst patients I ever had not only said that I compromised her soul by introducing her to Satan, but I didn't cure her of the breast cancer she had like I promised. Of course, I never promised such a thing, as my contract with her clearly outlined, but she was so upset and frustrated that something that she had in her mind would work that she could have sworn I promised to cure her completely. The truth of the matter was her frield said she had used me and had great luck in feeling better, and she interpreted that as some promise that I'd cure her.

As an atheist, I no longer do "religion stuff" so claims about angelic or demonic orientations of various practices don't influence me much.

What does influence me are the answers to the following questions:

1. Does the practice work?
2. Have we empirically demonstrated that it works in clinical trials?
3. Does it work better than what we are currently using?

Unless the answer to all three questions is "yes", I'm not inclined to acknowledge the validity of pseudoscientific claims.

 

[Zakath]

I think you're under the impression that I'm trying to say Reiki or other methods of alternative healing should be seen the same as visiting the doctor and should be a viable treatment. Or that if somebody "gets better" and happens to be seeing a Reiki healer that the Reiki healer should get partial or all of the credit.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm not saying that people should all abandon their doctors and get an alternative medicine healer.

No you were griping about having to share the limelight with some MD when you're convinced your therapy was responsible for curing a patient.

I'm saying that alternative healers aren't all "crooks" who're out to line their pockets and that some people experience releif from visiting them IN CONJUNCTION WITH their doctor.

Oh, I have no doubt there are some people who experience relief. Have you ever heard of the placebo effect? The human mind can have a powerful influence over some folks' physiology. That's were clinical trials come into play. They are designed to reduce or eliminate the placebo effect and determine how much effect the process, drug, or procedure has in and of itself.

I'm also saying, which was my original point, that people who are against magic or think it's sinful are may put this belief aside when their health is in question to pursue alternative medicine that they may have thought before was sinful.

As noted previously, you'd be better off talking to a religionist about this.

I'm going to break my response into two portions, so I can actually read the references you were kind enough to supply and will give you my comments later this afternoon. I hope this isn't too big an inconvenience...

The idea of studying the crap out of something to prove that it works to every Tom, Dick, and Harry is a Western thing...

Laugh away. It's called "science" and it's why you have such advancements as the computer you're typing on, the heating/AC system in the building you occupy, and the lights you use to see with at night. All those silly "Western" things.

 

[kopilo]

Laugh away. It's called "science" and it's why you have such advancements as the computer you're typing on, the heating/AC system in the building you occupy, and the lights you use to see with at night. All those silly "Western" things.

*EYE TWITCH* computers were not invented by science , they were a mathematical scientific invention, computers rely on computing, computing is a mathematical subject.

The Arithmetic Logic Unit in your cpu is like an abacus, computers without logic or maths are just scrap metal. Like wise computers without electricty are just scrap metal.

However as stated the core of a computer the CPU works on logic and maths.

 

[Zakath]

*EYE TWITCH* computers were not invented by science , they were a mathematical scientific invention, computers rely on computing, computing is a mathematical subject.

And mathematics is a branch of science, no?

The point, which seems to have eluded you, was that the mathematicians and engineers (don't forget the engineers) who designed and built the computers were from the West, not her beloved "East".

 

[Toboe]

I'm pagan what do you expect my answer to be.
*edit.
I think that magic is another form of praying. To say that praying is wrong is sort of silly.

 

[fregas]

I am referring to magic in the sense of the supernatural, not trickery, applied science, psychological manipulation, or anything else slapped with a label of "magic".

You completely missed the point. I wasn't talking about things like trickery or science. Go reread my earlier post (page 2)

I'm asking a "what if" type question. What if what we called "magic" was something along the lines of "psychic phenomenon" and actually due to something in the natural world and we just don't know it yet? For example, if I could levitate myself with my mind, but it was because I had some kind of enhanced brain powers or some kind of undiscovered energy source that was inherent in the physical universe, that were strictly nature-based (not-supernatural) would be still be wrong to use these powers?

 

[kopilo]

And mathematics is a branch of science, no?

The point, which seems to have eluded you, was that the mathematicians and engineers (don't forget the engineers) who designed and built the computers were from the West, not her beloved "East".

I would not consider maths a branch of science but as a subject on it's own, it can be inter-related, such as physics and some forms of pure maths but it can also be interelated with things like business (stock exchange etc). Also when you get into logic and have the such things as,
"if (not this is equal or greater then not that) then"
Then I would call that mathematical logic over science.

I didn't forget engineers, in fact I said "mathematical scientific invention"

I'm also sure the abacus origins relates back to Middle East and China, really you wouldn't be so silly as to say west vs east etc, we are but one world.

Oh and my computer comes from Australia, the parts chosen were manufactured all over the world, and it was assembled here..

I would say a good deal of embedded systems come from America (silicon valley) and Japan.

Anyway back onto the main topic of "magic"/"magik", if someone were to think themselves a witch doctor, and used dangerous plants such as from the deadly night shade family on themselves, then could it be said that who-ever ill informed them could be immoral? (I guess it has to do with what the ill informing persons beliefs are.. but could telling someone of what you may not know be immoral?)

 

[kopilo]

You completely missed the point. I wasn't talking about things like trickery or science. Go reread my earlier post (page 2)

I'm asking a "what if" type question. What if what we called "magic" was something along the lines of "psychic phenomenon" and actually due to something in the natural world and we just don't know it yet? For example, if I could levitate myself with my mind, but it was because I had some kind of enhanced brain powers or some kind of undiscovered energy source that was inherent in the physical universe, that were strictly nature-based (not-supernatural) would be still be wrong to use these powers?

Well I would say that the immoral part of that situation would come down to intent, and if you could actually use levitating someone in a moral and just way.

 

[Zakath]

I would not consider maths a branch of science but as a subject on it's own, it can be inter-related, such as physics and some forms of pure maths but it can also be interelated with things like business (stock exchange etc). Also when you get into logic and have the such things as,
"if (not this is equal or greater then not that) then"
Then I would call that mathematical logic over science.

OK, but just because you don't consider it a science, doesn't mean it isn't.
mathematics - noun. a science (or group of related sciences) dealing with the logic of quantity and shape and arrangement - wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I'm also sure the abacus origins relates back to Middle East and China, really you wouldn't be so silly as to say west vs east etc, we are but one world.

The West vs East thing was from another poster, not you.
BTW, the word abacus is a Latin word which comes from the Greek word for "table" or "tablet". The first abaci (abacuses?) were Greek counting boards. Here's a link on that, fyi: A Brief History of the Abacus.

Oh and my computer comes from Australia, the parts chosen were manufactured all over the world, and it was assembled here..

The first "computer" is generally considered to have been built by Charles Babbage, a Brit.

Anyway back onto the main topic of "magic"/"magik", if someone were to think themselves a witch doctor, and used dangerous plants such as from the deadly night shade family on themselves, then could it be said that who-ever ill informed them could be immoral? (I guess it has to do with what the ill informing persons beliefs are.. but could telling someone of what you may not know be immoral?)

I think the morality or immorality of the action deals quite a bit with the intent, not only the action itself. Sexual activity can be considered an expression of human love, but if someone knows they are infected with an STD, it can also be a means of revenge or punishment. It's the same action, but what matters is the intent or motive. There have been several court cases about the spread of HIV that way...

From my perspective, if a person does "magick" with the intent of helping another, there's less guilt than if they did it to intentionally manipulate or harm someone.

I hope that clarifies things.

 

[kopilo]

The first "computer" is generally considered to have been built by Charles Babbage, a Brit.

I'm not finding it but I'm sure he was the guy who invented the virtual machine concept.. He is considered the Gandfarther of computers, but does not tie the origins to him, Pascal created the first mechanical adding device, see here: http://kosmoi.com/Computer/History/
"Babbage never saw any of his machines completed".

Also language is considered an Art, yet you look up it's definition.

I think the morality or immorality of the action deals quite a bit with the intent, not only the action itself. Sexual activity can be considered an expression of human love, but if someone knows they are infected with an STD, it can also be a means of revenge or punishment. It's the same action, but what matters is the intent or motive. There have been several court cases about the spread of HIV that way...

From my perspective, if a person does "magick" with the intent of helping another, there's less guilt than if they did it to intentionally manipulate or harm someone.

I hope that clarifies things.

Ahh what you stated your perspective is, was what I was looking for.