Is magic moral?

[NothingButTheBlood]

As a Christian, Christ tells us that witchcraft is against God. In other words anytime you do something other than rely on God you are sinning. As a person, I find people use magic, good or bad, to manipulate a situation or person. I don't see how that can be a good thing.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Now that's silly. These forces are aspects of The Divine, creations of The Divine. It's like saying it's an insult to God to give Henry Ford credit for coming up with the Model T because God, as the author of all good, deserves the credit.

Did you really expect someone that adheres to Christian tenets to be in agreement with you on this?

 

[Phred]

First I have to define magic. I don't believe there is anything supernatural. Nothing. If it interacts with this universe, it's a part of this universe. The term "supernatural" is a copout for those looking for a place to stash things that cannot be evidenced. This, for me, eliminates any actual magic as a true thing.

Magic then, is simply the art of creating illusion. Do I think this is immoral? In some cases, yes. Psychics who pretend to contact the dead or know the future are lying to people. That is wrong. David Copperfield creates illusions to entertain. That is not wrong.

 

[TheGMan]

As a Christian, Christ tells us that witchcraft is against God.

I've heard this said before. I don't disbelieve you but I've not found where he says that. That having been said, I can't claim to have looked too hard. Do you have a chapter and verse?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Now obviously that isn't true, unless self-reliance is now suddenly a sin.

I'd hate to think that my going to the grocery store, relying on my personal motivation and money, to get me food is sinful because what I should have been doing was sitting on the couch praying for God to provide me with food...

God lifts up the humble and opposes the proud. Regardless of whether or not I accomplish something, it is due to God giving me the talent, capability, strength, knowledge, even life itself; so while I may do something good with the gifts He has given me, He still deserves the glory.

Self-relience isn't a sin, but pride or boasting that "you" accomplished this or that without God's blessing or grace would be the sin of pride or arrogance.

Example:

Daniel 4:30-32
30 he said, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"
31 The words were still on his lips when a voice came from heaven, "This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes."

 

[TheGMan]

A God who loves us, has our best interest in mind, and gives us what we need creates a situation where there is no need of another "magical" (supernatural) source. Likewise, claiming that we value God most, but depending on (permanently or temporarily) or cherishing another source could be compared to claiming that we love our wife/husband, while "interacting in a marital manner" and cherishing another. That is probably why you see references to God's children who gave into worshipping idols or practicing some form of magic referred to as prostitutes or they prostituted themselves.

Okay. That's very well explained. Thank you.

It does pose the question though why should a magical source be any different from, say, a human source like a doctor? Or is it that God is "magical"? But this would seem to imply that there are other spirits or powers that are of the same nature as God.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

I've heard this said before. I don't disbelieve you but I've not found where he says that. That having been said, I can't claim to have looked too hard. Do you have a chapter and verse?

Galatians 5:19-21

 

[TheGMan]

Galatians 5:19-21

Wasn't that Paul?

The word he uses, by the way, is pharmakeia which could also mean drug-taking, poisoning or the use of abortifacients according to Perseus.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

So I should be thanking God for giving me the will to go grocery shopping? So then free will is just an illusion, God gave us no free will do accomplish things on our own power. Or if he did give us free will, he had not intention of our using it since whenever we do things we should be thanking God for it, not crediting our own free will.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

That is because it took what I said and then makes an assertion that it is free will. The distortion from what I said presented above doesn't make sense to me either.

I am not Christian and I hold no faith in the Bible, so you may as well not quote it since I do not take it as proof or truth of a matter or situation. I find it to be an interesting collection of words that you might follow, but they still hold no meaning or relevance to me.

I didn't ask what you believe and I didn't insist on you giving credence to what the scripture says. I posted a selection for an example. You can read it, see how it applies to what I am conveying, you may not see it or you can ignore it. However, I will say that you waste your time trying to encourage me, a Christian on a Christian site, to not reference Christian scripture. No matter how repulsed some people are by it, no matter how much they hate seeing it, no matter how much they disagree with it, it won't dissuade me from referencing it.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

Wasn't that Paul?

The word he uses, by the way, is pharmakeia which could also mean drug-taking, poisoning or the use of abortifacients according to Perseus.

If you don't care or have faith in what the bible says or has to say than there really is no point to the conversation. You have decided what you think and I know what I think. If you wish to argue translation and what not you will have to speak to a scholar. I am just a lowly, dumb Christian. Sorry.

 

[TheGMan]

If you don't care or have faith in what the bible says or has to say than there really is no point to the conversation. You have decided what you think and I know what I think. If you wish to argue translation and what not you will have to speak to a scholar. I am just a lowly, dumb Christian. Sorry.

I do care what the Bible says although obviously I don't put the faith in it that you do. That is why I am always careful to go back to the original text. I thought that, as you do put faith in the Bible, you might have been interested in what I found out and what the Apostle had to say in his original tongue. I may have stated the facts more abruptly than I could have but it was certainly not my intention to cause offence and I am sorry if I have.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

If you don't care or have faith in what the bible says or has to say than there really is no point to the conversation. You have decided what you think and I know what I think. If you wish to argue translation and what not you will have to speak to a scholar. I am just a lowly, dumb Christian. Sorry.

It doesn't really matter if you were a scholar or not NBTB; apparently, some participants think they can claim authority over the discussion and retort the ol' "it's a mistranslation".

That reference only applies when it applies BTW.

 

[Zakath]

Just to get off the homosexuality stuff for a little while...

Is magic immoral? Not prestidigitation but tarot cards, astral projection, invoking spirits... that sort of stuff.

I'm not asking if you think it works - or how you think it works - although that may have some bearing on whether or not you think its right or wrong.

I suppose this is primarily aimed at Christians or other Abrahamic faiths. Everyone else I kind of expect to either think it's hokey or just a tool to be used like any other. Not that this should stop you from chipping in!

Oh and - like all good essay questions - why?

As an atheist, I'm part of "everyone else" in your OP. I do not believe in the existence of what is commonly referred to as "supernatural". If someone could actually demonstrate it, I'd be willing to change my mind, but until then...

That said, I think that "magick" (yes, practitioners use the "k" to differentiate it from stage magic) is mostly a combination of wish fulfillment, self delusion, with a pinch of manipulation thrown in. Most practitioners of magick that I have met, are doing it to try to achieve access to power. That power may be information, control over others, or control over events. What makes it "magick" is the means by which they try to gain that power.

Things like tarot cards work the same way horoscopes do. They can both be explained by a common psychological phenomenom called the "Forer Effect" (see link).

Divination, pendulum reading, or dowsing have never been demonstrated to work in an environment controlled to rule out fraud. Period. Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

Astral projection and other out of body experiences have been demonstrated to be related to human physiological phenomena called "sleep paralysis" and "lucid dreaming" (see link).

So far as this materialistic atheist can tell, none of it works.

That said, is there a moral problem these things?

If one is using such things to control, manipulate, or harm others, then I believe it is morally wrong.

Used as carnival tricks or tall tales to entertain folks, there's no more harm in it than watching a Penn & Teller or David Copperfield "magic show".

 

[FSTDT]

How about trying to do magic then?

I can see an argument for why that's immoral, because it indicates someone has a worldview that is somewhat divorced from reality. Its more ethical to have a well-grounded view of the world than otherwise, like the Shakespearean pithy goes "more than anything else, to thine own self be true".

Also morally relevant, if you have a superstitious view of the world, like the belief in magic, you might seriously hurt yourself or others. After all, it wouldn't be smart to just let someone ingest a "love potion" made of poisonous nightshade, and there are some scary stories of "vampires" abducting children and trying to drink their blood.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

So it doesn't matter to you if a verse or a passage is mistranslated? That means the text you're reading is a *******ized version of the true text, the text that is closest to Jesus and God as describing how to worship. It does not bother you that you may be worshipping through a mistranslation and not actually what God wants of you?

This is why I, quite frankly, could NEVER be Christian. Operating in my belief in the knowledge that part of it could be wrong, and not caring about it, is so competely against what I think The Divine wants from us. It's like saying "Because the Bible says 2+2=7 I believe it to be true, despite the fact that the answer 7 is probably a mistranslation."

Within that little shtick, there seems to be a failure to distinguish a difference between "could be" from the assertion that "it is" a mistranslation. Empty claims that something is this or that doesn't turn my world upside-down every time someone takes it upon themselves to do so.

 

[TheGMan]

I can see an argument for why that's immoral, because it indicates someone has a worldview that is somewhat divorced from reality. Its more ethical to have a well-grounded view of the world than otherwise, like the Shakespearean pithy goes "more than anything else, to thine own self be true".

Also morally relevant, if you have a superstitious view of the world, like the belief in magic, you might seriously hurt yourself or others. After all, it wouldn't be smart to just let someone ingest a "love potion" made of poisonous nightshade, and there are some scary stories of "vampires" abducting children and trying to drink their blood.

Okay I'm splitting hairs here but that's what I do best ...

Is it immoral in itself to hold a view that doesn't correspond to reality or is it because it has potential adverse consequences as you describe in your second paragraph.

And surely most practitioners of magic would frown on the use of love potions and vampirism anyway. At least most of the Wiccans I know would.

 

[kopilo]

Its very hard to say what is magic and what isn't, there are many mysteries and theologies in the world, for example Radionics is said to be based on EMS , also apparently connects with "the higherself", another suggestion is that it could be the subconcious slighly moving the pendulum, in another belief it is done by demonds or angels through a persons body.

I doubt such things would be immoral depending on intent.. but at the very least they should not be toys or things people play with (like a parlor trick),because some of the theories which state what is actually behind "magic" sounds rather nasty to be toying with.

 

[kopilo]

Divination, pendulum reading, or dowsing have never been demonstrated to work in an environment controlled to rule out fraud. Period. Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

I remember reading something along those lines about homoepaths a decade or so ago..

 

[Erock83]

Just to get off the homosexuality stuff for a little while...

Is magic immoral? Not prestidigitation but tarot cards, astral projection, invoking spirits... that sort of stuff.

I'm not asking if you think it works - or how you think it works - although that may have some bearing on whether or not you think its right or wrong.

I suppose this is primarily aimed at Christians or other Abrahamic faiths. Everyone else I kind of expect to either think it's hokey or just a tool to be used like any other. Not that this should stop you from chipping in!

Oh and - like all good essay questions - why?

That is like asking if a hammer is moral. If you use it to build a house for some less off then you then its use was moral, but if you use it to bash someone head it then its use was immoral. The hammer its self is amoral. Just as magic they are just tools to figure out stuff most of the time I would say that use of the them does not correspond with God’s teachings. However used as entertainment I don’t see why they would violate anything as long as all parties particating in said activity knew they were just messing around and did not really expect anything life changing to come about after the use of said tool. Peace

 

[kopilo]

That is like asking if a hammer is moral. If you use it to build a house for some less off then you then its use was moral, but if you use it to bash someone head it then its use was immoral. The hammer its self is amoral. Just as magic they are just tools to figure out stuff most of the time I would say that use of the them does not correspond with God’s teachings. However used as entertainment I don’t see why they would violate anything as long as all parties particating in said activity knew they were just messing around and did not really expect anything life changing to come about after the use of said tool. Peace

Except with a hammer it is definatly your own personal physical power swinging it..

Things like metaphisics etc, have been stated as being done by something else then the person themselves.