Is magic moral?

[Zakath]

I remember reading something along those lines about homoepaths a decade or so ago..

Homeopathy's just another pseudomedical con game.

I'll refer people to QuackWatch's Homeopathy Site.

 

[*Starlight*]

No, it isn't.
When the reliance or credit goes to something else i.e. self, other forces, etc., it is disrespectful of the Creator from which all things were made and the Author of what is good.

What do you mean by credit and reliance when it comes to magic?

 

[THOMBULL]

The bible says that we shouldn't dabble in things like sorcery/magic etc...I think its probably safer just not to go there when we don't need to anyway. Astrology and the like - its not our place to know what is going to happen, we should just trust God that he will have the best in store for us in the long run. But I don't think a guy doing tricks on a stage is really the problem - I think we're dealing with people who are really trying to do something full on and serious. I don't know if that kind of thing is real or not, but I'd rather trust God and just not go there anyway.

 

[FSTDT]

Is it immoral in itself to hold a view that doesn't correspond to reality or is it because it has potential adverse consequences as you describe in your second paragraph.

Both. In the first instance, you're lying to yourself; in the second instance, you're hurting yourself. Lots of authority I could appeal to would agree that one or both of those things is morally wrong.

 

[Helo]

Magic is morally neutral, it is neither good nor bad, its the person using it that makes it good or bad by thier intentions

 

[wblastyn]

I don't really believe in magic, so I'm not sure if you could call trying to do it evil or not? Maybe just a waste of time.

I realise we all have our own beliefs and some of you probably think praying is a waste of time, maybe I'm wrong - maybe magic is real, maybe prayer is a waste of time. That is what I believe anyway.

 

[spinto]

Magic is highly misunderstood by the modern world. But ironcially magic is a part of nearly everyone's lives. I believe prayer in the Christian tradition is just as much magic as it's pegan or wiccan form. I often don't call it magic though, I prefer call it Spiritual Communion.

I think magic is as moral as the person who wields it. It is often we pray or perform ritual magic for someone to be healed from an illness, or to ease worry or stress. These are moral because it wishes well and fortifies the reciever with good and positive intent and energy. However, many people pray for immoral things. Some Christians pray for other's hearts to be changed and for them to convert. This is immoral because no one should come between or interfere in the relationship any person has with God, or doesn't have for that matter...

In a nut shell, Magic is as moral as free will.

 

[Zakath]

spinto,

Anyone who believes that Christians don't practice "magick" should attend a Roman Catholic High Mass, an Orthodox High Mass, or a Charismatic/Pentecostal healing service. Each one comes with its own spells, ritual, and visitation from the deit(ies).

 

[spinto]

Zakath,



Ha!! Too true!

 

[kopilo]

Homeopathy's just another pseudomedical con game.

I'll refer people to QuackWatch's Homeopathy Site.

sad thing is that you will never know what "Alternative medicine" offers more then placebos, according to medicinal science dsylexia is meant to be incurible, if that was so then you would not be able to understand this message because I was disgnosed with severe dyslexia and I use to only be able to spell three letter words correct at age 8.

I am able to communicate on a "normal" level thanks to the work of a world renowned chriopracter. When I have a cold I goto a GP first, then with the diagnostics I find what alternatives I need, normally it clears up within 3 days instead of the normal 14 (I've only started doing this recently).

Just to name some things, also I am not the only one, there is a book of testimonies which I believe was release by Dr Rezza about 5 years ago.

Also that website doesn't mention "classical" homeopathy, much different from the crappy 5 day courses people do then claim they are homeopaths.

 

[TheGMan]

As an atheist, I'm part of "everyone else" in your OP. I do not believe in the existence of what is commonly referred to as "supernatural". If someone could actually demonstrate it, I'd be willing to change my mind, but until then...

...

That said, is there a moral problem these things?

If one is using such things to control, manipulate, or harm others, then I believe it is morally wrong.

Used as carnival tricks or tall tales to entertain folks, there's no more harm in it than watching a Penn & Teller or David Copperfield "magic show".

I didn't manage to respond to this one yesterday but it raises an interesting point...

If I am selling my services as a clairvoyant it could be argued that I am manipulating people for my own gain. But what if I genuinely believe that I am clairvoyant although I am really just using cold reading techniques but subconsciously.

Is there a moral problem here?

 

[Zakath]

I didn't manage to respond to this one yesterday but it raises an interesting point...

If I am selling my services as a clairvoyant it could be argued that I am manipulating people for my own gain. But what if I genuinely believe that I am clairvoyant although I am really just using cold reading techniques but subconsciously.

Is there a moral problem here?

To answer that question, I'd like to consider an alternative scenario and compare the results of our ruminations.

What if a person believed they were an investment counselor, or a tax accountant, or a massage therapist without actually having the ability to perform what they claimed? When they "hang up a shingle" and sell their services to the public, there is a certainl level of legal responsibility that accompanies each transaction.

Many of your clients, along with many courts, would think that someone presenting themselves as a practitioner in a field a and charging money for the service without the ability to perform the task is a type of fraud. Such things are against the law in many jurisdictions in this country.

Even if the practitioner is delusional, it's still wrong. When they claim to perform a service, and then charge someone for that service, it is morally wrong. In my opinion, this rationale covers religious faith healers as well as clairvoyants, dowsers, tarot readers, palmistry readers, etc. All such people do is separate fools from their money. While this does present a separate discussion from the point of "natural selection" (i.e. shouldn't gullible people be separated from their wealth if possible?), I think it is wrong to prey on the incorrect thinking of another (i.e. that humans can perform supernatural acts), even unintentionally.

 

[Zakath]

...I'm a Reiki 2 healer... You would not BELIEVE the number of people who start off by saying "I don't believe in this stuff, but..." I've built a steady client base on people who "don't believe in this stuff."...

I'm sure you have. As Mr. Barnum is alleged to have said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Isn't Reiki a "faith-based" practice since it teaches that the alleged healing power comes from a deity?

 

[TheGMan]

Many of your clients, along with many courts, would think that someone presenting themselves as a practitioner in a field a and charging money for the service without the ability to perform the task is a type of fraud. Such things are against the law in many jurisdictions in this country.

The problem I see with this is assessment that very often the clients of such practitioners also believe in their ability and are very happy with the service provided. Can it really be fraud if the perpetrator is unaware of the misrepresentation and the victim feels they have received exactly what they paid for?

 

[kopilo]

You know what's funny that your post reminded me of, is that in cases of healing or the need for alternative medicine because the other stuff just isn't working, a lot of these people who believe magic is "wrong" abandon that belief to better their health or situation.

I'm a Reiki 2 healer... My teacher worked my fanny off for both of my certifications. When I was finally able to go out on my own, after months of working for hours a day, I started to combine Reiki with Gemstone Therapy. Decidedly different, alternative medicine. You would not BELIEVE the number of people who start off by saying "I don't believe in this stuff, but..." I've built a steady client base on people who "don't believe in this stuff."

When it comes to healing and nothing else is working, people are willing to push their boundaries, go to extremes a little, and branch out.

Personally I would seperate alternative medicine from "magic", earlier I was just simply parraelling it to scientific medicine thoughts, and how some actually recommend alternative treatment (obiously no GP who does that would be silly enough to admit that to the board of medicine).

 

[Zakath]

The problem I see with this is assessment that very often the clients of such practitioners also believe in their ability and are very happy with the service provided. Can it really be fraud if the perpetrator is unaware of the misrepresentation and the victim feels they have received exactly what they paid for?

Legally, fraud only exists when one party intentionally decieves another. So if both parties are "believers" then fraud statutes wouldn't apply. My apologies for my imprecise language.

I was thinking more along the lines of when it doesn't work (as is the case with most paranormal claims). So far as I've heard, after more than 30 years of research, there are no reliable, accurate clairvoyants.

It's along the lines of the "alternative medicine" theme that was brought up in other posts here... if someone believed that taking large doses of arsenic to kill bacteria in the blood stream was a valid treatment for septicemia, would it be morally wrong to treat someone that way?

 

[kopilo]

I'm sure you have. As Mr. Barnum is alleged to have said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Isn't Reiki a "faith-based" practice since it teaches that the alleged healing power comes from a deity?

Amusing how chinese herbal medicine is alternative medicine.. There must be a massive group of suckers there who for whatever reason also seem to recover from severe diseases such as chronic fatigue... ohh wait how do you explain that when "traditional medicine" diagnoses them as having it, then magically they do not have anything major wrong with them/ diagnosed as not having it anymore..

 

[kopilo]

I would seperate it too, I just got sidetracked by your original thought.

Ahh it's all good, you were just making my case stronger anyway.

I mean if "magic" has no effect then all the "suckers" using it must be making fools of themselves, somehow.

 

[TheGMan]

It's along the lines of the "alternative medicine" theme that was brought up in other posts here... if someone believed that taking large doses of arsenic to kill bacteria in the blood stream was a valid treatment for septicemia, would it be morally wrong to treat someone that way?

If I - as a medical practitioner (which I'm not) - genuinely believed that such a treatment was effective, that the risk to my patient from being left untreated was significantly greater than that posed by the treatment itself and that there were no less risky treatments available then it would be immoral of me not to do so. However, part of a doctor's duty of care is to understand the risks involved with a treatment, to make the patient aware of them to allow an informed decision to be made.

 

[Zakath]

Amusing how chinese herbal medicine is alternative medicine...

Only here in the states. Many of our older medications started their lives as herbal extracts.

I'm not panning all forms of alternative medicine. Just those that don't seem to be able to stand up to a properly designed clinical trial.

...ohh wait how do you explain that when "traditional medicine" diagnoses them as having it, then magically they do not have anything major wrong with them..

I think you're referring to misdiagnosis. It's a common enough problem. That's why people joke about physicians "practicing" medicine.

BTW, there are many medical practitioners who don't accept the idea that the constellation of symptoms tagged as "chronic fatigue syndrome" are clear enough to be diagnostically useful. As of the present, there are no clear diagnostic tests for CFS and no effective treatment protocols. I'm not an MD, but a psychologist, and so far as I have seen, treatments listed in the medical literature include everything from antibiotics to steriods to family cognitive therapy to glycemic diets to megavitamin therapies. Most of what exists, thus far, is a collection of anecdotal evidence and a lot of unverifiable claims.

It's a situation tailor-made for predatory quacks.