Is magic moral?

[TheGMan]

Just to get off the homosexuality stuff for a little while...

Is magic immoral? Not prestidigitation but tarot cards, astral projection, invoking spirits... that sort of stuff.

I'm not asking if you think it works - or how you think it works - although that may have some bearing on whether or not you think its right or wrong.

I suppose this is primarily aimed at Christians or other Abrahamic faiths. Everyone else I kind of expect to either think it's hokey or just a tool to be used like any other. Not that this should stop you from chipping in!

Oh and - like all good essay questions - why?

 

[FSTDT]

It probably isn't coherent to talk about the morality of magic, given that its non-existence will never affect the real world either directly or indirectly.

Might as well be asking if its moral to kill leprechauns.

 

[Athene]

It's a difficult question to answer, it's not black and white like 'is it moral to have sex with children' which has a very clear 'no it is not moral'.

I think it's more of an ethical question, Is magic ethical? Because you can have a view point whether you believe magic is real or not. Maybe you might want to rephrase the question in the OP?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Just to get off the homosexuality stuff for a little while...

Is magic immoral? Not prestidigitation but tarot cards, astral projection, invoking spirits... that sort of stuff.

I'm not asking if you think it works - or how you think it works - although that may have some bearing on whether or not you think its right or wrong.

I suppose this is primarily aimed at Christians or other Abrahamic faiths. Everyone else I kind of expect to either think it's hokey or just a tool to be used like any other. Not that this should stop you from chipping in!

Oh and - like all good essay questions - why?

No, it isn't.
When the reliance or credit goes to something else i.e. self, other forces, etc., it is disrespectful of the Creator from which all things were made and the Author of what is good.

 

[LiberatedChick]

Just to get off the homosexuality stuff for a little while...

Is magic immoral? Not prestidigitation but tarot cards, astral projection, invoking spirits... that sort of stuff.

I'm not asking if you think it works - or how you think it works - although that may have some bearing on whether or not you think its right or wrong.

I suppose this is primarily aimed at Christians or other Abrahamic faiths. Everyone else I kind of expect to either think it's hokey or just a tool to be used like any other. Not that this should stop you from chipping in!

Oh and - like all good essay questions - why?

Hmm well, personally I wouldn't lump tarot cards in with magic. Yes, they are used as a tool but don't see anything magical about them. Just bits of cardboard that help you think things through imo. So I don't really see those as wrong.

When I think of magic I think of spells, invoking spirits or Gods/Goddesses etc.
This is something I've been pondering over...the main problem I can see is that using it is trying to take control over situations and trying to get things going your way. And calling on other Gods/Goddesses/spirits etc, if you're a one-God person then this would be a problem.

 

[TheGMan]

It probably isn't coherent to talk about the morality of magic, given that its non-existence will never affect the real world either directly or indirectly.

Might as well be asking if its moral to kill leprechauns.

Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?

How about trying to do magic then?

 

[TheGMan]

I think it's more of an ethical question, Is magic ethical? Because you can have a view point whether you believe magic is real or not. Maybe you might want to rephrase the question in the OP?

I've got to be honest - I'm not entirely sure what the distinction between 'ethical' and 'moral' is.

Put it this way, if I, believing magic to work, stand in a chalk circle and attempt to conjure up the Arch-Angel Uriel is that moral (or ethical)?

 

[TheGMan]

When the reliance or credit goes to something else i.e. self, other forces, etc., it is disrespectful of the Creator from which all things were made and the Author of what is good.

This is something I've been pondering over...the main problem I can see is that using it is trying to take control over situations and trying to get things going your way. And calling on other Gods/Goddesses/spirits etc, if you're a one-God person then this would be a problem.

These two seem to speak to the same point. It seems to me that the charge giving credit to something or someone else or trying to take control over situations could be made against doing anything at all. A lot of people who do (or at least try to do) magic, seem to do so very much within a Judaeo-Christian paradigm. In other words, they are not treating spirits as other gods but as part of God's creation.

I'm not an insider. I'm rather agnostic about whether any of it works. But I think that what I've stated above is accurate. I'm sure someone will correct me if it's not.

 

[Athene]

Ethically it's wrong for a doctor to give medicine to a terminally ill patient in a great deal of pain to ease their passing, but morally, if it's the patients request, it might be the right thing to do.

As to you conjuring up the Arch-Angel Uriel, it would depend on what you wanted to do with it, if you wanted to try and harm other people then it would be immoral and un ethical, I think it depends on what your intentions are.

 

[LiberatedChick]

I think it depends on what your intentions are.

Definately.

In the past, I've heard people talking about black and white magic...as if it's the magic itself that is either good or bad. I think magic itself is neutral...it is neither good or bad but it can be used for good or bad things depending on the intentions of the person.

 

[TheGMan]

As to you conjuring up the Arch-Angel Uriel, it would depend on what you wanted to do with it, if you wanted to try and harm other people then it would be immoral and un ethical, I think it depends on what your intentions are.

Okay. So magic, of itself, is not inherently right or wrong but rather a 'tool' (if that's the word) that can be used for good and bad purposes. Assuming it works.

And surely Uriel is a 'him' and not an 'it'? At least in traditional angelology.

 

[LiberatedChick]

It seems to me that the charge giving credit to something or someone else or trying to take control over situations could be made against doing anything at all.

Hmm...yes, good point.

 

[wanderingone]

If I believe magic to work, and the use of whatever form of magic I'm using is being used for the purposes that are ethical within my beliefs then it's ethical. If I'm conjuring up the dead while I preach in church on Sunday that we aren't to talk to spirits then I'm a little unethical (at the least a hypocrite)

 

[ChristianCenturion]

These two seem to speak to the same point. It seems to me that the charge giving credit to something or someone else or trying to take control over situations could be made against doing anything at all. A lot of people who do (or at least try to do) magic, seem to do so very much within a Judaeo-Christian paradigm. In other words, they are not treating spirits as other gods but as part of God's creation.

Aren't you seeing a conflict of interest in that? Knowingly or unknowingly going to Satan (one who is against God, prideful, etc.) for assistance or empowerment?

If a parallel can help: Greedy people don't knowingly "treat" money as gods either, but when it is valued in the unhealthy sense and it is cherished more than God, it is idolatry.

I'm not an insider. I'm rather agnostic about whether any of it works. But I think that what I've stated above is accurate. I'm sure someone will correct me if it's not.

 

[TheGMan]

Aren't you seeing a conflict of interest in that? Knowingly or unknowingly going to Satan (one who is against God, prideful, etc.) for assistance or empowerment?

I don't know, you know. I'd go to the doctor for assistance and he (or she) is part of God's creation too.

Or are you saying that Satan is behind all magic?

 

[fregas]

No, it isn't.
When the reliance or credit goes to something else i.e. self, other forces, etc., it is disrespectful of the Creator from which all things were made and the Author of what is good.

Is it wrong to rely on your skills to keep you employed when you go to work (relying on self) or wrong to rely on things like technology to keep us healthy and comfortable?

Lets put it this way: I know most of you christians assume that if there is magic, it comes from demons, satan, etc. If that is the case, I would agree it is wrong because you are basically relying on evil beings. However, what if magic was just another technology? What if the brain were inherently capable of generating some kind of energy to perform "miracles" or if magic drew its power from some energy source that wasn't "alive" or intelligent (something like "the force" in star wars) that was morally neutral? IN this case, would it still be wrong? Wouldn't magic be kind of like another God given tool like fire, the sun, electricity, etc?

Just curious.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I don't know, you know. I'd go to the doctor for assistance and he (or she) is part of God's creation too.

Yes, I saw that held premise earlier.
I disagree with the application because it holds that all of God's creations are good regardless of any discernment of perversion or use.
We aren't in Eden anymore (i.e. God created this, that and the other and called it good) and by the same logic proposed in your premise, Satan is good because he was created by God. I'm wasn't asking if you saw a conflict of interest in your value system, I was asking if you saw the conflict relative to Christian belief.

Or are you saying that Satan is behind all magic?

This gives a good explanation.

Eph. 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Is it wrong to rely on your skills to keep you employed when you go to work (relying on self) or wrong to rely on things like technology to keep us healthy and comfortable?

Lets put it this way: I know most of you christians assume that if there is magic, it comes from demons, satan, etc. If that is the case, I would agree it is wrong because you are basically relying on evil beings. However, what if magic was just another technology? What if the brain were inherently capable of generating some kind of energy to perform "miracles" or if magic drew its power from some energy source that wasn't "alive" or intelligent (something like "the force" in star wars) that was morally neutral? IN this case, would it still be wrong? Wouldn't magic be kind of like another God given tool like fire, the sun, electricity, etc?

Just curious.

I am referring to magic in the sense of the supernatural, not trickery, applied science, psychological manipulation, or anything else slapped with a label of "magic".

 

[TheGMan]

Yes, I saw that held premise earlier.
I disagree with the application because it holds that all of God's creations are good regardless of any discernment of perversion or use.

Well that wasn't quite my point. My only point was that some parts of God's creation are considered good. Others are, as you point out, considered evil. But we cannot infer from the fact that a thing is part of God's creation that it is either good or evil.

So in response to...

They are not treating spirits as other gods but as part of God's creation.

Aren't you seeing a conflict of interest in that?

...no I don't see an obvious conflict of interest even relative to Christian belief.

This gives a good explanation.

Eph. 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Okay so this is a better argument. You haven't made explicit that you consider all magic to come from "the powers of this dark world" or "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" but I'm presuming that is the implication you wish me to draw.

So the question then becomes do you consider magic immoral simply because it is a thing of these "dark powers". Is it of itself bad? Or is it rather that it has inescapable consequences that, no matter what good it is intended to be used for, a sufficiently bad for us to consider its use outright immoral?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Well that wasn't quite my point. My only point was that some parts of God's creation are considered good. Others are, as you point out, considered evil. But we cannot infer from the fact that a thing is part of God's creation that it is either good or evil.

So in response to...

...no I don't see an obvious conflict of interest even relative to Christian belief.

Okay so this is a better argument. You haven't made explicit that you consider all magic to come from "the powers of this dark world" or "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" but I'm presuming that is the implication you wish me to draw.

So the question then becomes do you consider magic immoral simply because it is a thing of these "dark powers". Is it of itself bad? Or is it rather that it has inescapable consequences that, no matter what good it is intended to be used for, a sufficiently bad for us to consider its use outright immoral?

I think this would be aligning with what I said earlier in that regardless of the intent, it gives glory and is valuing something else other than God. If so, then yes I would agree with that.

A God who loves us, has our best interest in mind, and gives us what we need creates a situation where there is no need of another "magical" (supernatural) source. Likewise, claiming that we value God most, but depending on (permanently or temporarily) or cherishing another source could be compared to claiming that we love our wife/husband, while "interacting in a marital manner" and cherishing another. That is probably why you see references to God's children who gave into worshipping idols or practicing some form of magic referred to as prostitutes or they prostituted themselves.

The dichotomy is pretty consistent in the Christian teaching i.e. can't serve two masters - we will love the one and hate the other. That would be regardless of intent or how a person "claimed" it to be.

Of course, non-Christians will probably see that differently and consider it a case-by-case issue or just another 'tool' to serve their desire.