Is King James onlyism a heresy?

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Well, this last point is mainly a problem for people who are poorly catechized and are reading scripture outside and in opposition to the Church. Such an approach is bound to produce doctrinal error, since Scripture was written for the Church, by the Church, for use in the Church. Note in this case I am defining the Church broadly as Nicene Christendom, but I will specifically laud the Roman Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, the Coptic and Syriac Orthodox, the traditional and magisterial Protestant denominations, particularly the traditional Lutherans and Calvinists with their focus on catechesis, the Anglicans and Episcopalians with their focus on liturgy as the framework of belief, and some Methodists, specifically those congregations which stress Wesleyan doctrine, among others, and the Assyrian Church of the East, as these denominations collectively excel at teaching doctrine and promoting the reading of scripture in a manner harmonious with the ancient faith as taught by the Apostles and preserved through the work of the great Ecumenical Councils, especially those of Nicaea in 325, Constantinople in 381, Ephesus in 433, and the second council of Nicaea in 787.

I am non-denominational, meaning that I don't subscribe to the teaching of any formal denomination. Every denomination has their own "spin" on what the Bible says, and most load that further with all kinds of unscriptural teachings and traditions. I am a believer that the Bible only is God's word -- sola Scriptura -- and the message that is conveyed by it is the whole truth. There is nothing that needs to be added to it by the various denominations, each of which claims to "get it right".

I realize that there are long traditions held by the various denominations but if they're not contained in God's Word they're (obviously) unscriptural. They have much more in common with the traditions and practices of OT Judaism than they do with principles put forth in the NT.

For example, why did Jesus reduce everything to two commandments as the basis for Christian life: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 22:34-40, "Now when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they assembled together. And one of them, an expert in religious law, asked him a question to test him: “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

If I can love the Lord with all my heart and love my neighbor as myself, that is all that I need.
 
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I am non-denominational, meaning that I don't subscribe to the teaching of any formal denomination. Every denomination has their own "spin" on what the Bible says, and most load that further with all kinds of unscriptural teachings and traditions. I am a believer that the Bible only is God's word -- sola Scriptura -- and the message that is conveyed by it is the whole truth. There is nothing that needs to be added to it by the various denominations, each of which claims to "get it right".

I realize that there are long traditions held by the various denominations but if they're not contained in God's Word they're (obviously) unscriptural. They have much more in common with the traditions and practices of OT Judaism than they do with principles put forth in the NT.

For example, why did Jesus reduce everything to two commandments as the basis for Christian life: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Matthew 22:34-40, "Now when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they assembled together. And one of them, an expert in religious law, asked him a question to test him: “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

If I can love the Lord with all my heart and love my neighbor as myself, that is all that I need.

I agree with the first half of your post here. Well said.

As for the two commandments of Jesus (that are repeated from the Old Covenant). Well, I believe Jesus was preparing the way for the New Covenant (Which began with His death upon the cross). Before the cross: I believe Jesus was primarily teaching us New Covenant teachings before He died. Jesus was preparing us for the teachings of his apostles like: Paul who said that if you love your neighbor, you have fulfilled the Law (i.e. the Old Law). Seeing we as Christians are no longer under the 613 Laws of Moses, we can obey them by simply obeying the Law of loving our neighbor now. But that does not mean there are not NEW Laws under the New Testament or New Covenant.

Here are New Testament Commands That Are Called A Command:

  1. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.” (Mark 12:29-30 gives us the full complete description of the 1st commandment in the Bible).

  2. “And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:31).

  3. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23).

  4. “Repent” (i.e. Seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, “God… now commands all men everywhere to repent”).

  5. A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if you have love one to another (John 13:34-35).

  6. “Watch” (“For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. Watch you therefore: for you know not when the Master of the house comes,...” - See: Mark 13:33-37).

  7. “Honor your father and mother” (God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother - Matthew 15:4, Matthew 19:19, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20) (Ephesians 6:2-3 says “Honour your father and mother (which is the first commandment attached with a promise).

  8. Tell the women to keep silent in the churches. For it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law; And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for women to speak in the church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

  9. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks disorderly (2 Thessalonians 3:6).

  10. Keep the following commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ: Fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life, whereby you are called, and have professed a good profession before many witnesses (1 Timothy 6:12-14).

  11. Keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) (Note: The young rich ruler asked, which ones (i.e. which commands should he keep); Jesus replied, “Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:18-19) (Jesus also said as a part of these commands, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,” - Matthew 19:21).

Anyways, whether you disagree with me on believing the King James Bible as being the pure Word of God, may God bless you greatly this fine evening.
 
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Tertullian claimed that the Valentinians created their own authoritative text.

Actually, the Valentians just wrote their own scripture from scratch, which is what Tertullian was referring to. Specifically, the Tripartite Tractate is known to be Valentinian, and there is a very good chance the Pistis Sophia and the Gospel of Truth are of Valentian provenance.

No doubt they would have removed 1 John 5:7 to start.

Here you are confusing Valentinian Gnosticism with Arianism and Pneumatomacchianism (also known as Macedonianism), which are completely separate and unrelated heresies. Suffice it to say, that the Valentinians would have wanted to remove the Comma Johanneum is highly doubtful, as the records we have on Valentinism suggests they did actually believe in something analogous to the Trinity. Without wanting to delve too much into the complex nuances of Valentinian and Gnostic theology, Gnostics did tend to believe in a complex form of quasi-Trinitarian theology, in which Sophia, who was identified with the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, were aeons, who formed a dyad begotten by a higher order dyad; in Valentinainism specifically all of the aeons of the Pleroma (fullness, something like Heaven, a purely spiritual realm devoid of matter) were begotten of or descended from Bythos, so thus you have one or more trinities, organized in different Gnostic systems into ogdoads or heptads. It is extremely complex, but suffice it to say, Gnostics were not and generally are not anti-Trinitarian. Rather, Gnostics are anti-incarnational, usually rejecting a belief that Jesus Christ actually put on our material form, since matter is believed to be evil in the Gnostic system. Thus Gnosticism tends to include a belief in Docetism, which states that Christ only appeared to be human, but this was an illusion.

So it is still a heresy, but its not the heresy you are looking for.

To my knowledge, Marcionism, which was similiar to the Gnostic heresies like Valentinianism, Tatianism, Manichaeism, etc, was not Docetic, but I could be wrong; also not all of the Docetae were classically Gnostic, for example, Cerinthus.

So if indeed the manuscripts of the Critical Text date to the second century (as one possibility), then this explains the removal of 1 John 5:7 in the manuscripts favored by Westcott and Hort.

Actually, both of the manuscripts from which Westcott and Hort composed the critical text, the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, have been authoritatively dated to the fourth century. In the case of the Codex Sinaiticus, we can further establish that it was not composed until after 325 AD, since it contains the Canon Tables of Eusebius of Caesarea.

The real reason these manuscripts lacked the Trinitarian gloss on 1 John 5:7 is because at the time, the only edition of the Bible which featured this was the Vetus Latina translation, as I mentioned previously.

Also, not only did the KJB translators use the TR (Erasmus’ work) but they also used the Syriac Peshitta and the Old Latin from the 2nd century.

Indeed, the KJV translators to their credit consulted a vast range of sources, which is one of the things I love about the Authorized Version, as I prefer to call the KJV.


Dude, why are you quoting Bart Ehrman? Are you aware he is a militant atheist who has been known to twist and misrepresent information in order to cast doubt on the veracity of the Bible, specifically the life of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior? He is not someone you want to be consulting; my research into the man indicates that the KJV and traditional Christians are things he is very much in opposition to.
 
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While I am not saying certain creeds cannot make true statements from the Scriptures, did Jesus and His followers teach following creeds by men over the Scriptures?

That’s a false dichotomy. The creeds are a summary of the Scriptural doctrines that comprise normative Christian.

Jesus quoted the authority of Scripture and not traditions. Jesus actually condemned the traditions of men.

To be more precise, he condemned the traditions of the Pharisees. However, by his command, the Apostles established traditions, which were written down in the Scriptures, and also became the basis for the liturgy of the church, and if we look at Galatians 1:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 , we see that there is clearly an Apostolic tradition, and that tradition in turn formed into the canonical Scriptures, and indeed the canon of scriptures itself.
 
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I realize that there are long traditions held by the various denominations but if they're not contained in God's Word they're (obviously) unscriptural. They have much more in common with the traditions and practices of OT Judaism than they do with principles put forth in the NT.

This may be true of some denominations; indeed, I know of at least one marginal denomination where that is the case, but of the denominations that I listed, certainly in the case of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, traditional Anglicanism and Methodism, the Assyrian Church of the East, the traditional Lutheran churches, and, generally speaking, liturgical Christianity as a whole, the traditions in question are entirely scriptural, and much of my formation since leaving the UCC has consisted of a study of the extensive scriptural basis of everything taught by the major Patristic figures, and the profoundly scriptural basis of Christian liturgy.

Indeed, just taking one popular Eastern liturgy as an example, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, aside from being entirely Biblical in content, purpose, and context, also is composed almost entirely from the actual text of Sacred Scripture. Someone attending that liturgy will hear the entire economy of salvation, and the passion and resurrection of our Lord is the central theme at every church service celebrated using that liturgy. And that is just one of hundreds.

My main objection to non-denominational churches is that, with some prominent and admirable exceptions, most of them are unaware of these intensely beautiful church services, which are both edifying in terms of the faith and spiritual nourishing.
 
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Actually, the Valentians just wrote their own scripture from scratch, which is what Tertullian was referring to. Specifically, the Tripartite Tractate is known to be Valentinian, and there is a very good chance the Pistis Sophia and the Gospel of Truth are of Valentian provenance.

Here you are confusing Valentinian Gnosticism with Arianism and Pneumatomacchianism (also known as Macedonianism), which are completely separate and unrelated heresies. Suffice it to say, that the Valentinians would have wanted to remove the Comma Johanneum is highly doubtful, as the records we have on Valentinism suggests they did actually believe in something analogous to the Trinity. Without wanting to delve too much into the complex nuances of Valentinian and Gnostic theology, Gnostics did tend to believe in a complex form of quasi-Trinitarian theology, in which Sophia, who was identified with the Holy Spirit, and Jesus, were aeons, who formed a dyad begotten by a higher order dyad; in Valentinainism specifically all of the aeons of the Pleroma (fullness, something like Heaven, a purely spiritual realm devoid of matter) were begotten of or descended from Bythos, so thus you have one or more trinities, organized in different Gnostic systems into ogdoads or heptads. It is extremely complex, but suffice it to say, Gnostics were not and generally are not anti-Trinitarian. Rather, Gnostics are anti-incarnational, usually rejecting a belief that Jesus Christ actually put on our material form, since matter is believed to be evil in the Gnostic system. Thus Gnosticism tends to include a belief in Docetism, which states that Christ only appeared to be human, but this was an illusion.

So it is still a heresy, but its not the heresy you are looking for.

To my knowledge, Marcionism, which was similiar to the Gnostic heresies like Valentinianism, Tatianism, Manichaeism, etc, was not Docetic, but I could be wrong; also not all of the Docetae were classically Gnostic, for example, Cerinthus.

And your source for this?

You said:
Actually, both of the manuscripts from which Westcott and Hort composed the critical text, the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, have been authoritatively dated to the fourth century. In the case of the Codex Sinaiticus, we can further establish that it was not composed until after 325 AD, since it contains the Canon Tables of Eusebius of Caesarea.

Source?

You said:
The real reason these manuscripts lacked the Trinitarian gloss on 1 John 5:7 is because at the time, the only edition of the Bible which featured this was the Vetus Latina translation, as I mentioned previously.

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts ha

Source:
David Daniels

You said:
Indeed, the KJV translators to their credit consulted a vast range of sources, which is one of the things I love about the Authorized Version, as I prefer to call the KJV.

I prefer to call it the KJB. King James Bible. For I do not see it as a version but I see it as the BIBLE.

You said:
Dude, why are you quoting Bart Ehrman? Are you aware he is a militant atheist who has been known to twist and misrepresent information in order to cast doubt on the veracity of the Bible, specifically the life of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior? He is not someone you want to be consulting; my research into the man indicates that the KJV and traditional Christians are things he is very much in opposition to.

My apologies for not checking the author. I deleted the source immediately. I honestly did not realize it was his book. I do know who the author was until you said his name. But soon as you mentioned his name, I knew instantly who he is. I mentioned him recently in another KJB thread here. But Bart Ehrman is actually one of the reasons why you cannot trust Textual Criticism or the false belief that says there is no Perfect Bible for today. I believe it was because of Textual Criticism that has led him to fall away from the faith.

See, this is why history written by men is not always trustworthy. Depending on the source, it can be biased. So if it is by your church, I am going to think it is biased to your church. Now, I do accept the Westcott and Hort narrative in history because it is taken directly from their own writings and or those who claimed to know him. However, you do not seem to be concerned with WH holding to the false beliefs I mentioned. For me: This is deeply troubling (just as bad as if somebody following Ehrman and his writings).
 
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This may be true of some denominations; indeed, I know of at least one marginal denomination where that is the case, but of the denominations that I listed, certainly in the case of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, traditional Anglicanism and Methodism, the Assyrian Church of the East, the traditional Lutheran churches, and, generally speaking, liturgical Christianity as a whole, the traditions in question are entirely scriptural, and much of my formation since leaving the UCC has consisted of a study of the extensive scriptural basis of everything taught by the major Patristic figures, and the profoundly scriptural basis of Christian liturgy.

Sorry, I don’t agree. While there are creeds that may be Scriptural there are some that are not in line with the Bible. Also, liturgy can include repetitious prayer (Which Jesus forbids). Then there is the reverence of liturgy symbols and icons (Which I see as a form of idolatry).

You said:
Indeed, just taking one popular Eastern liturgy as an example, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, aside from being entirely Biblical in content, purpose, and context, also is composed almost entirely from the actual text of Sacred Scripture. Someone attending that liturgy will hear the entire economy of salvation, and the passion and resurrection of our Lord is the central theme at every church service celebrated using that liturgy. And that is just one of hundreds.

That is not biblical in any way.
From what I see on YouTube: This appears to be dressing up in holy outfits for the holy men, and chanting and mindless hand waving, and the use of icons, etcetera.

You said:
My main objection to non-denominational churches is that, with some prominent and admirable exceptions, most of them are unaware of these intensely beautiful church services, which are both edifying in terms of the faith and spiritual nourishing.

Lots of things can be beautiful in appearance but it does not mean it is in line with what the Bible says.

I would rather play it safe than be sorry. Jesus did not seem to favor traditions by men, and there is no grounds for any extra biblical church practices like this of any kind in the Bible.
 
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And your source for this?

Well, a large amount of my career has been spent studying this, but some of the sources which will validate my claim, which I also recommend you study, include, but are not limited to:

The Panarion, volume 1 and 2, by Epiphanius of Salamis, translated by Frank Williams, Brill, 2009 (vol. 1) and 2013 (vol. 2)
Valentinian Ethics and Paraenetic Discourse, by Philip L. Tite, Brill, 2009
Fragments of a Faith Forgotten, by G.R.S. Mead (public domain)
The Fount of Knowledge by St. John of Damascus, Translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr., pub. Fathers of the Church, vol. 37, issued 1958
The Cambridge History of Christianity, vol. 1-9
Against All Heresies by St. Irenaeus

Also, some more accessible titles:
Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose, 1978
Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, and Nihilism, both also by Fr. Seraphim Rose, the former circa 1976, the latter circa 1971
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, Second Edition by Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (avoid the first edition)

The Gnostic Society also has a very good online collection of public domain materials on Valentinism and other related sects which have been carefully digitized and uploaded.



Metzger, Bruce M., (1991). Manuscripts of the Greek Bible: An Introduction to Palaeography, Oxford: Oxford University Press, pp. 76–78.

Aland, Kurt; Barbara Aland (1995). The Text of the New Testament: An Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism, trans. Erroll F. Rhodes. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 109.

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it

St. Athanasius aside, and I do not by the way recall mention of the Comma Johanneum in De Incarnatione, so if you have a page number, that would be useful, these are all Latin writers who would have had access to the Vetus Latina, which was only slowly displaced by the Vulgate. It should be noted that initially the Vulgate was somewhat controversial both for using vulgar Latin rather than classical Latin, and because St. Jerome picked a fight with the pro-Origen faction, which was quite large; Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia were extremely popular in the Latin church, to the extent that when Emperor Justinian anathematized them, it caused a 30 year schism known as the Three Chapters Controversy. In particular, St. Jerome had a very heated row with St. Lucifer the bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia, and also with the Patriarch of Jerusalem, whose name escapes me.

800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts ha

Indeed, it is widely known that the Comma Johanneum was added to the Vulgate at approximately 800, however, it was never a part of the Byzantine text and one of the chief differences between the Byzantine text and the Textus Receptus compiled by Erasmus is its inclusion (the other difference is of course the unwarranted replacement of the Septuagint, on which I agree with my Eastern Orthodox friends @prodromos and @GreekOrthodox is the standard Christian Old Testament, although I would add, and they might not concur, that the Ethiopic Ge’ez-language Old Testament, the Old Testament portion of the Syriac Peshitta, and the translation of the Hebraic Old Testament in the Vulgate are also good alternatives, and the KJV did make some needed changes to the Masoretic Text, but usually I am happiest with the Septuagint).

I prefer to call it the KJB. King James Bible. For I do not see it as a version but I see it as the BIBLE.

This position is of course untenable, as many of us have eloquently explained; to claim that a translation of the original scriptures is alone the sole authoritative Bible, and to propose that people who do not natively speak English either learn it, or be given translations of the Authorized Version rather than translations from the source materials from which the Authorized Version is translated makes no sense.

You also are making the very unfortunate mistake of lumping together all non-KJV translations as if they all had the liberal agenda and various flaws that afflict some of them, most notably the third edition of the New International Version, and you accused Westcott and Horst of various heresies which they were in fact innocent of, as I addressed earlier, and you maintain the narrative of people who work on new editions of the Bible losing their voice despite the fact that I demonstrated via statistics and via the fact that no one involved in the most egregious mistranslations of scripture was rendered mute, that this point was invalid, based on the prevalence of partial or complete loss of speech faculties (speech impairment and aphasia) in the US population.

My apologies for not checking the author. I deleted the source immediately. I honestly did not realize it was his book. I do know who the author was until you said his name. But soon as you mentioned his name, I knew instantly who he is.

I do appreciate you expurgating that reference, as it speaks to your honesty, integrity and moral conviction.

I mentioned him recently in another KJB thread here. But Bart Ehrman is actually one of the reasons why you cannot trust Textual Criticism or the false belief that says there is no Perfect Bible for today. I believe it was because of Textual Criticism that has led him to fall away from the faith.

With all due respect, that’s not at all what happened with Bart Ehrman. His slide from grace, so to speak, is in fact almost completely unrelated to textual criticism; he is not particularly well known as an expert in the field of textual criticism except as someone who likes to selectively quote from textual critics whose analysis supports his agenda, while ignoring textual critics with a divergent perspective.

Rather, Bart Ehrman is all about selling books, and promoting atheism, using the extremely successful marketing tactic of supposedly offering new insights into “the historical Jesus.” He is by no means the only person engaged in this pursuit. John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, the late Episcopalian bishop John Shelby Spong, Elaine Pagels and Karen King, among others, not to mention the late Robert W. Funk and his Jesus Seminar, and more recently Hal Taussig and A New New Testament, have all made a career based on the idea of “the historical Jesus” whose actual narrative has been suppressed and is not to be found in the canonical Gospels. Instead, they turn to apocrypha and various wild theories. Then we have Dan Brown, who has printed money off of the phenomenon with his fictional Da Vinci Code novels, which are in my opinion just so much hot air (and I think much less of Tom Hanks than many people for his decision to act in the film adaptations thereof).

See, this is why history written by men is not always trustworthy. Depending on the source, it can be biased. So if it is by your church, I am going to think it is biased to your church.

As a generic orthodox Christian, I don’t have one particular church whose perspective I follow exclusively. Rather, the sources I use span the entire range of Nicene Christianity, including traditional Lutheran, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Methodist, Congregationalist, Calvinist, Arminian, Moravian and Assyrian sources.

Now, I do accept the Westcott and Hort narrative in history because it is taken directly from their own writings and or those who claimed to know him. However, you do not seem to be concerned with WH holding to the false beliefs I mentioned.

You did not provide any evidence they believed in any actual heretical doctrines. You mentioned, for example, “Mariolatry” as an alleged heresy, without any further information or proof, and Mariolatry in particular is a challenging heresy to substantiate, because one has to differentiate it from the completely legitimate practice of the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as engaged in by Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Lutherans and other Protestants, and instead show that actual worship is occurring, such as has happened in cults such as the Collyridians of antiquity and the Palmerians of today.

For me: This is deeply troubling (just as bad as if somebody following Ehrman and his writings).

If an actual heresy can be attributed to Westcott and Hort, that would be disturbing, but as far as I can tell, based on the biographical information I have, they were pious high church Anglicans.
 
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Sorry, I don’t agree. While there are creeds that may be Scriptural there are some that are not in line with the Bible.

Every creedal statement I quoted is Scriptural and in compliance with Scripture. The sine qua non, however, is the Nicene Creed, which for me is the Creed per se; the remaining creedal statements I cited merely reinforce Nicene orthodoxy.

Also, liturgy can include repetitious prayer (Which Jesus forbids).

No He does not. What he forbids are vain repetitions that constitute much babbling. Specifically this applies to glossolalia (as differentiated from the authentic gift of tongues, which I have experienced, and which is completely different, referring to the ability to communicate efficiently with someone despite not having learned their language).

Then there is the reverence of liturgy symbols and icons (Which I see as a form of idolatry).

Perhaps you might consider rereading the account of the construction of the Tabernacle, and of the Temple. Iconography is divinely ordained.

That is not biblical in any way.

On the contrary, it is inherently scriptural, and the natural consequence of Incarnational theology. Since we are created in the image of God, which is to say we are icons of God, and Jesus Christ in His incarnation is the perfect icon of the Father, and became man so as to restore the tarnished divine image in each of us, we are called to make our relationships with other humans an icon of the Trinity.

The chief difference between holy icons and pagan idols is that icons are not worshipped, but rather, what they depict is the object of veneration, which is to say, love, and having icons is equivalent to keeping photographs of our loved ones, and having an icon of Jesus Christ our Lord, God and Savior is of paramount importance.

In contrast, a pagan idol is held to be a manifestation of that deity, which is accorded actual worship and adoration, and to which sacrifices are offered. In Christianity, worship and adoration are reserved to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; even the Blessed Virgin Mary, who by giving birth to our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ became the very Mother of God, is not worshipped, even though she is venerated more than anyone else. “More honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the six-winged seraphim” is how an Eastern Orthodox hymn describes her.

From what I see on YouTube: This appears to be dressing up in holy outfits for the holy men, and chanting and mindless hand waving, and the use of icons, etcetera.

I have no idea what you saw on YouTube, but I will say I have never seen a liturgy with mindless hand waving. As for chanting, well, chanting is an invention of Christianity and it is the basic form of Christian music; the four part harmony characteristic of Protestant hymns, known as the Chorale, is a relatively recent invention first used by Martin Luther and his contemporaries, yet the Lutherans retained Gregorian chant and to this day actively use it in their liturgical worship. For example, in the Lutheran masses composed by Johann Sebastian Bach, including his legendary Mass in B Minor, one will hear Gregorian chant in addition to the choral and instrumental music that comprises the rest of the composition.

Lots of things can be beautiful in appearance but it does not mean it is in line with what the Bible says.

I agree.

I would rather play it safe than be sorry. Jesus did not seem to favor traditions by men, and there is no grounds for any extra biblical church practices like this of any kind in the Bible.

While traditional liturgical worship may seem a bold departure from the praise and worship / christian rock type contemporary worship which now predominates, it is in fact more Biblical, more justified by the Bible, more in keeping with God’s commandments and also is the worship for which the KJV was produced.

Again, I don’t know what you saw on YouTube; I also don’t care as there is some really terrible liturgy on YouTube, because, to be clear, not all liturgy is good liturgy. Liturgical worship dates back to the ancient Hebrew religion, so naturally, because the gods of the gentiles are demons (Psalm 95:5 LXX), there exist Pagan liturgies outside the bounds of Christianity, and also there are cults which claim to be Christian but are not, which frequently have spectacular worship rituals which dazzle the eyes but are spiritual counterfeits.

Because liturgy is offtopic for this thread, I will post another thread with links to YouTube videos of actual bona fide Christian worship in Anglican, Lutheran and other Protestant traditions, and also in the traditions of other churches such as some of the churches of the East, and then you can perhaps get a clearer idea as to what I am talking about.
 
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I am a believer that the Bible only is God's word -- sola Scriptura -- and the message that is conveyed by it is the whole truth. There is nothing that needs to be added to it by the various denominations, each of which claims to "get it right".

I wonder why you believe this. Your belief is not what sola scriptura is, so I am curious where you got that belief from.

I would agree that there is nothing that needs to be added to it by the various denominations, but I don't see that nothing needs to be added to it. How do you as a 21st century citizen expect to intuit what the authors of the Bible who lived 2000-4000 years ago meant? Words have changed meaning, idioms have changed, translators can make mistakes, Ancient Near East culture is wildly different from any modern culture, etc and because of this I think reliable studies in history and culture and commentaries are essential to reading the scriptures accurately.

For example, if you don't know that Pontius Pilate's political fortunes in Rome were fading fast and he was under scrutiny for provoking near riots with his bungling relations with the local population, then how will you have the context to realize why he acted as he did in judging Jesus?

If you don't know the history of Alexander the Great and the conflicts of the dynasties of Seleucid and Ptolemy following his death then how are you going to understand the prophecies in Daniel?

I affirm sola scriptura in the normal sense of the doctrine, that only the Bible has final authority on Christian dogma, but I don't see how the Bible alone is sufficient for a person to get a proper understanding. You need to discern what the Bible means and that requires more than a cold reading of the Bible itself. The more time passes and the further away we get from the Biblical era, the more important it will be to supplement the scriptures with resources that allow reading those scriptures in proper context.
 
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I am a believer that the Bible only is God's word -- sola Scriptura -- and the message that is conveyed by it is the whole truth. There is nothing that needs to be added to it by the various denominations, each of which claims to "get it right".

Indeed, strictly speaking, as @kidkaos2 points out, this approach is not Sola Scriptura as understood by the magisterial Protestants such as Luther, Cranmer and Calvin who first promoted this doctrine, but rather is what is commonly known as “Nuda Scriptura,” which is an extreme interpretation which suffers the problem of tending to produce discord between individual believers, and schisms, over minor disagreements in interpretation. Now of course, I respect the freedom of religion, and if a Nicene Christian wants to follow the Nuda Scriptura approach it is not my place to stop them, however, I do not personally recommend such an approach.
 
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Well, a large amount of my career has been spent studying this, but some of the sources which will validate my claim, which I also recommend you study, include, but are not limited to:

The Panarion, volume 1 and 2, by Epiphanius of Salamis, translated by Frank Williams, Brill, 2009 (vol. 1) and 2013 (vol. 2)
Valentinian Ethics and Paraenetic Discourse, by Philip L. Tite, Brill, 2009
Fragments of a Faith Forgotten, by G.R.S. Mead (public domain)
The Fount of Knowledge by St. John of Damascus, Translated by Frederic H. Chase, Jr., pub. Fathers of the Church, vol. 37, issued 1958
The Cambridge History of Christianity, vol. 1-9
Against All Heresies by St. Irenaeus

Also, some more accessible titles:
Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose, 1978
Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, and Nihilism, both also by Fr. Seraphim Rose, the former circa 1976, the latter circa 1971
Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, Second Edition by Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick (avoid the first edition)

The Gnostic Society also has a very good online collection of public domain materials on Valentinism and other related sects which have been carefully digitized and uploaded.




Metzger, Bruce M., (1991). Manuscripts of the Greek Bible: An Introduction to Palaeography, Oxford: Oxford University Press, pp. 76–78.

Aland, Kurt; Barbara Aland (1995). The Text of the New Testament: An Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism, trans. Erroll F. Rhodes. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 109.



St. Athanasius aside, and I do not by the way recall mention of the Comma Johanneum in De Incarnatione, so if you have a page number, that would be useful, these are all Latin writers who would have had access to the Vetus Latina, which was only slowly displaced by the Vulgate. It should be noted that initially the Vulgate was somewhat controversial both for using vulgar Latin rather than classical Latin, and because St. Jerome picked a fight with the pro-Origen faction, which was quite large; Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia were extremely popular in the Latin church, to the extent that when Emperor Justinian anathematized them, it caused a 30 year schism known as the Three Chapters Controversy. In particular, St. Jerome had a very heated row with St. Lucifer the bishop of Cagliari in Sardinia, and also with the Patriarch of Jerusalem, whose name escapes me.



Indeed, it is widely known that the Comma Johanneum was added to the Vulgate at approximately 800, however, it was never a part of the Byzantine text and one of the chief differences between the Byzantine text and the Textus Receptus compiled by Erasmus is its inclusion (the other difference is of course the unwarranted replacement of the Septuagint, on which I agree with my Eastern Orthodox friends @prodromos and @GreekOrthodox is the standard Christian Old Testament, although I would add, and they might not concur, that the Ethiopic Ge’ez-language Old Testament, the Old Testament portion of the Syriac Peshitta, and the translation of the Hebraic Old Testament in the Vulgate are also good alternatives, and the KJV did make some needed changes to the Masoretic Text, but usually I am happiest with the Septuagint).



This position is of course untenable, as many of us have eloquently explained; to claim that a translation of the original scriptures is alone the sole authoritative Bible, and to propose that people who do not natively speak English either learn it, or be given translations of the Authorized Version rather than translations from the source materials from which the Authorized Version is translated makes no sense.

You also are making the very unfortunate mistake of lumping together all non-KJV translations as if they all had the liberal agenda and various flaws that afflict some of them, most notably the third edition of the New International Version, and you accused Westcott and Horst of various heresies which they were in fact innocent of, as I addressed earlier, and you maintain the narrative of people who work on new editions of the Bible losing their voice despite the fact that I demonstrated via statistics and via the fact that no one involved in the most egregious mistranslations of scripture was rendered mute, that this point was invalid, based on the prevalence of partial or complete loss of speech faculties (speech impairment and aphasia) in the US population.



I do appreciate you expurgating that reference, as it speaks to your honesty, integrity and moral conviction.



With all due respect, that’s not at all what happened with Bart Ehrman. His slide from grace, so to speak, is in fact almost completely unrelated to textual criticism; he is not particularly well known as an expert in the field of textual criticism except as someone who likes to selectively quote from textual critics whose analysis supports his agenda, while ignoring textual critics with a divergent perspective.

Rather, Bart Ehrman is all about selling books, and promoting atheism, using the extremely successful marketing tactic of supposedly offering new insights into “the historical Jesus.” He is by no means the only person engaged in this pursuit. John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, the late Episcopalian bishop John Shelby Spong, Elaine Pagels and Karen King, among others, not to mention the late Robert W. Funk and his Jesus Seminar, and more recently Hal Taussig and A New New Testament, have all made a career based on the idea of “the historical Jesus” whose actual narrative has been suppressed and is not to be found in the canonical Gospels. Instead, they turn to apocrypha and various wild theories. Then we have Dan Brown, who has printed money off of the phenomenon with his fictional Da Vinci Code novels, which are in my opinion just so much hot air (and I think much less of Tom Hanks than many people for his decision to act in the film adaptations thereof).



As a generic orthodox Christian, I don’t have one particular church whose perspective I follow exclusively. Rather, the sources I use span the entire range of Nicene Christianity, including traditional Lutheran, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Methodist, Congregationalist, Calvinist, Arminian, Moravian and Assyrian sources.



You did not provide any evidence they believed in any actual heretical doctrines. You mentioned, for example, “Mariolatry” as an alleged heresy, without any further information or proof, and Mariolatry in particular is a challenging heresy to substantiate, because one has to differentiate it from the completely legitimate practice of the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary as engaged in by Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Lutherans and other Protestants, and instead show that actual worship is occurring, such as has happened in cults such as the Collyridians of antiquity and the Palmerians of today.



If an actual heresy can be attributed to Westcott and Hort, that would be disturbing, but as far as I can tell, based on the biographical information I have, they were pious high church Anglicans.

As for Bart Ehrman:

Well, Daniel Wallace (a leading hero within Textual Criticism) has praised Ehrman as "one of North America's leading textual critics" and describes him as "one of the most brilliant and creative textual critics I have ever known".

However, we know Ehrman went from faith to unbelief. Here is a short video online (about 8 minutes) where you can see Bart Ehrman in his own words describe how he was a "born again Fundamentalist Christian" who is a Textual Critic, began to then doubt the truth of the Bible itself, then whether or not Jesus Christ was God or merely a man, and finally even the existence of God Himself.


Source used:
Another King James Bible Believer
 
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As for Bart Ehrman:

Well, Daniel Wallace (a leading hero within Textual Criticism) has praised Ehrman as "one of North America's leading textual critics" and describes him as "one of the most brilliant and creative textual critics I have ever known".

Here is a short video online (about 8 minutes) where you can see Bart Ehrman in his own words describe how he was a "born again Fundamentalist Christian" who is a Textual Critic, began to then doubt the truth of the Bible itself, then whether or not Jesus Christ was God or merely a man, and finally even the existence of God Himself.


Source used:
Another King James Bible Believer

I don’t know of any Christian textual critics who are currently prominent within the field who respect Bart Ehrman, and what is more, for the past 20 or 30 years, the various works he has published are noteworthy for a distinct lack of textual criticism.

Ironically, many of them do contain copious amounts of what is called “Higher criticism”, which focuses less on the provenance of various manuscripts and their relative importance, and more on the analysis and evaluation of the scriptures themselves. Higher criticism seeks to work out, via analysis of the text, questions such as authorship, meaning, correct interpretation, authenticity and so on. For example, the three-source hypothesis concerning the Pentateuch is an example of Higher Criticism.
 
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I don’t know of any Christian textual critics who are currently prominent within the field who respect Bart Ehrman, and what is more, for the past 20 or 30 years, the various works he has published are noteworthy for a distinct lack of textual criticism.

Ironically, many of them do contain copious amounts of what is called “Higher criticism”, which focuses less on the provenance of various manuscripts and their relative importance, and more on the analysis and evaluation of the scriptures themselves. Higher criticism seeks to work out, via analysis of the text, questions such as authorship, meaning, correct interpretation, authenticity and so on. For example, the three-source hypothesis concerning the Pentateuch is an example of Higher Criticism.

I really don’t see the difference because both positions in that field of man made science. For both are saying the same thing the serpent said in the Garden of Eden. “Yea, hath God said…?” For if they believed the Bible fully, they would not try to correct it or re-construct what God said. They would just believe what His word says and not try to change anything or update anything.
 
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I wonder why you believe this. Your belief is not what sola scriptura is, so I am curious where you got that belief from.

I would agree that there is nothing that needs to be added to it by the various denominations, but I don't see that nothing needs to be added to it. How do you as a 21st century citizen expect to intuit what the authors of the Bible who lived 2000-4000 years ago meant? Words have changed meaning, idioms have changed, translators can make mistakes, Ancient Near East culture is wildly different from any modern culture, etc and because of this I think reliable studies in history and culture and commentaries are essential to reading the scriptures accurately.

For example, if you don't know that Pontius Pilate's political fortunes in Rome were fading fast and he was under scrutiny for provoking near riots with his bungling relations with the local population, then how will you have the context to realize why he acted as he did in judging Jesus?

If you don't know the history of Alexander the Great and the conflicts of the dynasties of Seleucid and Ptolemy following his death then how are you going to understand the prophecies in Daniel?

I affirm sola scriptura in the normal sense of the doctrine, that only the Bible has final authority on Christian dogma, but I don't see how the Bible alone is sufficient for a person to get a proper understanding. You need to discern what the Bible means and that requires more than a cold reading of the Bible itself. The more time passes and the further away we get from the Biblical era, the more important it will be to supplement the scriptures with resources that allow reading those scriptures in proper context.

I prefer the term, “Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand It.” For the Spirit can guide us into all truth within the Bible. The Bible is the source for all matters of faith and practice. Sure, the creation can tell you of the existence of God, but it really does not give you the faith that is from the Bible, and neither does the creation tell you God’s will like the Bible does. So what other authority do you get the faith and or God’s will besides the Bible? Is it some near death experience like that Pastor who mocks the Bible with his reliance on a false vision of spending 90 minutes outside the gates of Heaven while he was dead? Is it some other book like the Book of Mormon or some church traditions that are not in the Bible and are contradictory to it? Is it by what you feel alone for the faith and for God to guide you without the Bible or as a supplement to the Bible? Is there some kind of reliance on you to trust your dreams in addition to the Bible? Tarot cards? The list is endless of the problems and errors one can fall into if they don’t make the Bible their final Word of authority. Not following the Bible alone falls into the realm of Christian Liberalism - IMHO.
 
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