Is John Piper Really Reformed?

[JM]

Guilt by associate or was AS just pointing out how Piper is willing to work with the heterodox? I think Piper leans credibility to Warren for working with him. John MacArthur refused the invite to R13 by Driscoll for the very same reason. I think it is valid to point out how some are so soft on hertrodoxy they're squishy.

If we really believe what we claim to believe it should be important to transmit or pass on the faith as acurately and as faithfully as possible. Christianity is about the glory of God in Jesus Christ and not just "gettin' folks saved."

Yours in The Lord,

J

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Guilt by associate or was AS just pointing out how Piper is willing to work with the heterodox? I think Piper leans credibility to Warren for working with him. John MacArthur refused the invite to R13 by Driscoll for the very same reason. I think it is valid to point out how some are so soft on hertrodoxy they're squishy.

If we really believe what we claim to believe it should be important to transmit or pass on the faith as acurately and as faithfully as possible. Christianity is about the glory of God in Jesus Christ and not just "gettin' folks saved."

Yours in The Lord,

J

Yes, exactly. I just felt that he somewhat affirmed Warren's positions by playing nice with him. But then I'll chalk it up to Piper getting older and losing some discernment in the same way some do when they get older and try to be nice to snakes.

 

[JM]

Here's another way to look at the use of the word. I see it more clearly after having read the quote:

Might I suggest that the problem is not reductionism in the first instance, but individualism. Once the individual becomes the point of reference for terms then the terms are reduced to their lowest common denominator.

The term "Reformed" relates to a "Church" which came out from the corrupt Church of Rome and was constituted a distinct and unified confessing body of people in opposition to the Roman communion. It is a term of ecclesiastical and confessional identification.

Yours sincerely,
Rev. Matthew Winzer
Australian Free Church,
Victoria, Australia

"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

That is what I was workin toward. Most Christians assume a radical individualism which allows for every person to define their faith without any outside authority. When I used the phrase "baptist if in their thinking" this is what I was trying to convey. Most Presbyterains are radical individualists just like the standard American (free will) Baptist. Words like Reformed are now being redefined to allow a more broad use when it really means something very specific.

 

[AmericanSamurai]

Sarcasm is the highest form of wit in my opinion! But yes it is hard to express it properly on a forum and it sometimes comes out sounding 'harsher' then anticipated. Still a good post I found on your points. God uses you perhaps to get the point across to people.

Gord, you just wouldn't understand. After all, you were redeemed by a "Gourd" a freaking crop for cryin out loud.

 

[gord44]

Gord, you just wouldn't understand. After all, you were redeemed by a "Gourd" a freaking crop for cryin out loud.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Guilt by associate or was AS just pointing out how Piper is willing to work with the heterodox? I think Piper leans credibility to Warren for working with him. John MacArthur refused the invite to R13 by Driscoll for the very same reason. I think it is valid to point out how some are so soft on hertrodoxy they're squishy.

What I see are Baptists with different views, if you want to call one hertrodox, that's fine. Obviously Piper does not base his decisions on what you or I think. I somehow doubt Piper worked with him for the purpose of leaning credibility to him, as though Warren needed it (I suspect more people have heard of his "Purpose Driven" material than they have John Piper). If anything perhaps Piper made an effort to reach out to Baptists on the other side of Calvinism? I don't know.

If we really believe what we claim to believe it should be important to transmit or pass on the faith as acurately and as faithfully as possible. Christianity is about the glory of God in Jesus Christ and not just "gettin' folks saved."

Much can be said about "If we really believe what we claim to believe", Lord have mercy! God knows how I am tempted sometimes to focus on myself (where the problem starts) and doubt I believe what I claim...those dark hours where the light of Christ is not shinning through me, during times when the storms of life are blowing, times when the enemy of my soul comes at me like a flood, times of personal defeats, times when the foundation is shaking, and would be removed, except Christ is the Rock on which I stand, and I would surely fall away, except the sovereign grace of God.

I wonder if anything I do glorifies God, even so that is what life is about, regardless of my daily failures. I covet your prayers brother, life seems to be crumbling around me, too many things I have little to no control over.

 

[JM]

What I see are Baptists with different views, if you want to call one hertrodox, that's fine.

When did I call you heterodox? I said Warren was.

Obviously Piper does not base his decisions on what you or I think. I somehow doubt Piper worked with him for the purpose of leaning credibility to him

I don't believe he did either but Piper's influence over young, theologically minded Calvinists opened up the door to teachers like Warren.

, as though Warren needed it (I suspect more people have heard of his "Purpose Driven" material than they have John Piper). If anything perhaps Piper made an effort to reach out to Baptists on the other side of Calvinism? I don't know.

I don't know the purpose behind Warren's involvement but enough conservatives have spoke out against Warren's involvement for us to piece together reasons why. (see google)

Much can be said about "If we really believe what we claim to believe", Lord have mercy! God knows how I am tempted sometimes to focus on myself (where the problem starts) and doubt I believe what I claim...those dark hours where the light of Christ is not shinning through me, during times when the storms of life are blowing, times when the enemy of my soul comes at me like a flood, times of personal defeats, times when the foundation is shaking, and would be removed, except Christ is the Rock on which I stand, and I would surely fall away, except the sovereign grace of God.

This is another good illustration for us to seek the witness of scripture AND the church. When our faith is weak we seek pastoral council from Elders who believe what scripture teaches. Our doubts should not move us from the witness of the Bible and the local Gospel preaching church. When in doubt about the particulars have faith, the church that is preaching the Gospel is the church, confess what the church teaches! Amen.

I wonder if anything I do glorifies God, even so that is what life is about, regardless of my daily failures. I covet your prayers brother, life seems to be crumbling around me, too many things I have little to no control over.

I often feel the same way brother.

It is in these times we prayer honestly, more fervently, seeking Him who is our Sabbath rest from all work, seeking Him who is able to deliver us, looking unto Him who is the author and finisher of our faith.

Calling to mind His love for us from before the world began, knowing that all trial on our journey from this world to the next has been ordained for our good (Romans 8.28), trusting and loving Him who is our life.

We have been eternally blessed in Jesus Christ. Unspeakable riches of love and mercy have been given us in the Saviour.

Continue in faith, the one who is faithful will walk with you, lean on Him.

Yours in the Lord,

j

 

[RINO 72]

When did I call you heterodox? I said Warren was.

I don't believe he did either but Piper's influence over young, theologically minded Calvinists opened up the door to teachers like Warren.

I don't know the purpose behind Warren's involvement but enough conservatives have spoke out against Warren's involvement for us to piece together reasons why. (see google)

This is another good illustration for us to seek the witness of scripture AND the church. When our faith is weak we seek pastoral council from Elders who believe what scripture teaches. Our doubts should not move us from the witness of the Bible and the local Gospel preaching church. When in doubt about the particulars have faith, the church that is preaching the Gospel is the church, confess what the church teaches! Amen.

I often feel the same way brother.

It is in these times we prayer honestly, more fervently, seeking Him who is our Sabbath rest from all work, seeking Him who is able to deliver us, looking unto Him who is the author and finisher of our faith.

Calling to mind His love for us from before the world began, knowing that all trial on our journey from this world to the next has been ordained for our good (Romans 8.28), trusting and loving Him who is our life.

We have been eternally blessed in Jesus Christ. Unspeakable riches of love and mercy have been given us in the Saviour.

Continue in faith, the one who is faithful will walk with you, lean on Him.

Yours in the Lord,

j

Amen. It is good to know others experience these trails.

 

[AndOne]

I don't believe he is but Kevin DeYoung does.

Is John Piper Really Reformed? – Kevin DeYoung

If I reduce the Reformed faith to a few points I still do not see brothers like Piper as 'Reformed.' Reformed Christianity is confessional, Calvinistic, covenantal and believes in the regulative principle of worship. Piper denies the Reformed understanding of the Law, denies the covenant of grace, mixes dispensationalism with covenantalism, and believes in tongues which run contrary to the regulative principle.

Thoughts?

In reading through this thread I think that perhaps by your definition of "reformed" I would say that he more than likely is not. No one here can or should deny that he is Calvinist though. I think your characterization of him is a bit off. I'm fairly certain that he agrees with the covenant of grace and the Reformed understanding of the law. His fascination and devotion to the teaching of Jonathan Edwards I think would support that.

Whatever folks' hang ups are with Piper it's obvious that his ministry is centered on glorifying Christ and a strict adherence to the authority of Scripture. Just about every word he has written or spoken in ministry pretty much conveys that, which is why I really put a lot of stock in what he does and spend quite a bit of time reading his books and listening to him preach.

Yea - I'm not a fan of his acceptance of Rick Warren either. I also don't like the fact that he recently held a conference devoted to C.S. Lewis. Just shows the guys isn't perfect.

 

[JM]

Behe, is it my definition or the historical definition? The problem with calling Piper Reformed is miss using the historic term.

 

[AndOne]

Behe, is it my definition or the historical definition? The problem with calling Piper Reformed is miss using the historic term.

I got into this issue with a Presbyterian on here a few years ago and I'm not sure I want to now but I will just say I think that the historic definition of "Reformed" is no where near as complex as some folks on this board want to make it.

The problem that I see is that some Presbyterians want to encapsulate the term "Reformed" into Presbyterianism. That's not what the Reformation was all about - Presbyterianism is one denomination that came out of the Reformation not vice versa.

The historical term "Reformed" (imho) is limited to the five solas of the Reformation and nothing else. There are different tenants of Reformed Christians - such as Reformed Baptists, Anglicans, and Presbyterians that came out of the Reformation and none of them have the historical right to lay sole claim of the term "Reformed."

That's my view. I realize it may not be very popular around here - but oh well...

 

[JM]

I believe the Reformed confessions expressed Reformed doctrine. The London Baptist Confession expressed Baptist doctrine. It's not really all that difficult.

 

[AndOne]

I believe the Reformed confessions expressed Reformed doctrine. The London Baptist Confession expressed Baptist doctrine. It's not really all that difficult.

Nope - not difficult at all...

 

[AmericanSamurai]

From my understanding, "Reformed" is interchangeable with "Calvinism".

 

[georgehay]

John Piper is a Calvinist, a Puritan he is not, but then neither is MacArthur or his followers. So shall we dismiss all those non-Reformed Calvinists for their lack of Reformed-ness? Would be a shameful disgrace, and limit the roots of strict Reformed Calvinist history greatly.

John Piper is just a man, and he has loved the Church, and strived to make a difference in difficult times, and done so openly as a Calvinist. He has taken chances others would not, like showing support for Calvinists in Hip Hop music. He has done so much good, and good for Calvinism, only time will show us the full harvest of it. I have personally not listened to many preachers with the passion and zeal of John Piper. Listening to him preach is refreshment to the soul, water in the desert, a shovel working on stony ground.

John Piper may have some inconsistencies, but then I've not met a person without inconsistency, if not on paper, in speech, if not in speech, thought, if not in thought, in heart.

Is it not the charge against all dispensationalists, that they deny the Reformed understanding of the Law, misconstrue the covenants, because dispensationalism is a kind of hermenutic which taints every aspect of theology? What does this say about Reformed Baptists who stay within the Baptist faith? Evidently, it's not THAT big of a deal, but those curious so-called spiritual gifts, better stay far far away, run!!

Sorry got a little carried away, these in house struggles get to me sometimes.

 

[georgehay]

some presbyterians do not think reformed baptists are reformed. there are a few non sabatarian reformed baptists. i asked a prominent reformed baptist pastor about confessional baptism and he told me "it wasnt about the mode but about ones view of the covenant. if one believes in an eternal covenant between the father and son then you need to go infant covenant baptism, however, since there are many covenants and not one made with father and son in eternity we go with confessional baptism. " they were thinking of changing the baptist confession to reflect that.
ive spent alot of time trying to get it right, thinking that in these things i can find eternal life. i find jesus christ in many churches now. i realize that now i see in a glass darkly but one day in a twinkle of an eye seeing him as he is ill having been made like him will at that moment know even as i am known now.
i agree with you. i cannot any longer dismiss those who are lacking reformed ness. at one time i thought what i hold to now was heresy. lol.
piper has put some more meat on my theological bones.