Is Jesus who he claims to be?

Jane_the_Bane

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If I understand correctly, that is similar to my thoughts on the divinity of Jesus. C.S. Lewis gave only three options (liar, lunatic, or Lord), but there is at least one other possibility - Jesus only claimed to be a human messiah but early Christians exaggerated this claim over the generations.
Exactly. I would wager that even James, Peter and others who had known the historical Jesus did not worship a sacrificial god-man akin to the saviour deities of the pan-hellenic mysteries. Yet that was the recipe that turned Christianity into this huge phenomenon.
 
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dlamberth

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If I understand correctly, that is similar to my thoughts on the divinity of Jesus. C.S. Lewis gave only three options (liar, lunatic, or Lord), but there is at least one other possibility - Jesus only claimed to be a human messiah but early Christians exaggerated this claim over the generations.
That's what comes a cross my mind every time someone comes up with those 3 options of C.S. Lewis. But what also crosses my mind as a 5th option is that as an enlightened, awakened being, Jesus was pointing towards that Divinity aspect that all human beings have within. And that the Christ element that has been bestowed only on Jesus is in truth flowing through all of humanity. And all we need to do is to also awaken to it and own up to our true inner being. The resulting effect is the spiritual evolution of a more human, Human Being.
 
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TheOldWays

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5th option is that as an enlightened, awakened being, Jesus was pointing towards that Divinity aspect that all human beings have within. And that the Christ element that has been bestowed only on Jesus is in truth flowing through all of humanity. And all we need to do is to also awaken to it and own up to our true inner being. The resulting effect is the spiritual evolution of a more human, Human Being.

I could get down with that for sure. It's crazy still how far modern Christianity is from Jesus, or God, for that matter.
 
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cloudyday2

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Well, in John 4:42,
Then they said to the woman,
"Now we believe because we have heard him ourselves,
not just because of what you told us."
Then it goes on,
"He is indeed the saviour of the world."

Wonder what they put into "world"
more than likely they had not been further than the well.
Here is the whole chapter John 4 RSV
Bible Gateway passage: John 4 - New International Version

It seems to me that "world" is "all nations". So they were saying that Jesus must be the savior of other nationalities in addition to the Jews (such as the Samaritans in that village) - gentiles in other words I guess.
 
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Robban

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Robban

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If I understand correctly, that is similar to my thoughts on the divinity of Jesus. C.S. Lewis gave only three options (liar, lunatic, or Lord), but there is at least one other possibility - Jesus only claimed to be a human messiah but early Christians exaggerated this claim over the generations.

There are so many question marks.

The story seems to fall apart.

So many different views it becomes silly.

Blaming a group for his death and at the same time saying he came to die for our sins.

Cannot eat your cake and have
it at the same time.
 
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Aiden236

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Personally, I just like saying lunatic and watch people squirm over it since I'll point out that someone having a mental illness doesn't mean they can't understand things like morality or the Bible. Someone could completely believe they are something they are not but also be able to speak philosophy.



I can agree with you that Christianity see it this way and I can tell you that Judaism would dispute this. Our religions have a lot of differences.
Send me a personal message. Im interested in hearing more about what you think.
 
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Calies

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I would like for you all to list reasons why Jesus is and isnt historically correct. If he is then how do we know he is who he says he is. I am writing a paper on the matter.

Thank you!

Jesus Christ the Son of God is correct indeed because Bible (Holy Scripture) said so. I think so.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Jesus Christ the Son of God is correct indeed because Bible (Holy Scripture) said so. I think so.
Do you understand what "circular reasoning" means?
wp-1489562879711.jpg

DK27YH
 
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gadar perets

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Since we do not have Yeshua's words written by his own hand, the title of this thread should read, "Is Yeshua who others say he said he is?" In other words, when the writer of the Gospel of John quotes Yeshua as saying, "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36), are we to believe that claim? There is much behind those words starting with, is that really what he said? Well, no, he did not speak English. I doubt he said, "υιος του θεου ειμι" in Greek either. However, I do not doubt he spoke words that meant something similar in Hebrew or Aramaic like, "Ben haElohim". That is where faith comes in. I have faith that what is written about Yeshua is true. Those who do not believe Yeshua was the son of Elohim have faith that what is written about him is not true. There are many external and internal factors that cause both sides to either believe or not.
 
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Goonie

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Since we do not have Yeshua's words written by his own hand, the title of this thread should read, "Is Yeshua who others say he said he is?" In other words, when the writer of the Gospel of John quotes Yeshua as saying, "I am the Son of God" (John 10:36), are we to believe that claim? There is much behind those words starting with, is that really what he said? Well, no, he did not speak English. I doubt he said, "υιος του θεου ειμι" in Greek either. However, I do not doubt he spoke words that meant something similar in Hebrew or Aramaic like, "Ben haElohim". That is where faith comes in. I have faith that what is written about Yeshua is true. Those who do not believe Yeshua was the son of Elohim have faith that what is written about him is not true. There are many external and internal factors that cause both sides to either believe or not.
I would not use the term faith, one just does not find the sources credible. I’m sure you share that view in regard to the Koran, or the Book of Mormon.

Atheism is not a faith, I just believe in one less god than you.
 
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gadar perets

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I would not use the term faith, one just does not find the sources credible. I’m sure you share that view in regard to the Koran, or the Book of Mormon.

Atheism is not a faith, I just believe in one less god than you.
You "believe" in one less god than me. In Greek, the word for both belief and faith is pistis.

Thayer Definition:
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief;

"Unbelief" would be apistia.​

You have a faith/belief that deities do not exist. Sadly, your unbelief in the only true God will have a detrimental affect on your future.
 
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Arius

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My understanding is that most academic religious scholars, Christian and otherwise, believe Jesus was an actual person.

As far as any claims regarding divinity, responses here will naturally be biased. Christians will agree he was who he said he was and non-Christians will not.

Spiritual experiences, near death experiences, "having Grace", "being filled with the Holy Spirit", in-story scriptural references, and other fuzzy catchphrases ultimately prove nothing. It's faith because there is no objective, empirical evidence.
Hello @awitch Tell me my friend; how would you know if Abraham Lincoln was who he said he was?

Abraham Lincoln's Autobiographies of 1858-60

Thank you.
 
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Arius

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The strongest evidence I see for the existence of Jesus as a historical person is the existence of the Christian church. The new religion of Christianity suddenly appeared in the first century AD. Where did the ideas of this new religion come from? It makes sense that there was, in fact, a teacher who taught the ideas of the new religion.

Proving that the Incarnation and the Atonement are true is a much more difficult undertaking.

Greetings @PloverWing the Christian Religion was established around 325AD, Jesus talked with people way before that, and soon after the Apostles wrote about him, and in their writings they all were very careful NOT to establish any Organized Religion, which was NOT his purpose for coming. Actually he mocked the Religion of the Jews, the very ones he came into to abolish, and did away with Religion and their meaningless practices and traditions. He called the Religious Pharisees hypocrites.

The Catholic Religion (c. 4 BC – c. AD 30) eventually, with the help of the pagan gods worshipping Emperor Constantine created a new Religion which they called "Christian" which they adapted into the Catholic Church, keeping most of their gods and statues, and renaming them by the names off the Apostles, Mary and so on as time went by. By this time, they confiscated most of the Scriptures from the heavily persecuted early church of God established by Christ Himself.

There was no "Christian Religion" before that, and no True Disciple of Christ would have created one after that either. The mention of the word "Christian" in the Bible appears only 3 times, and none referring to any Religious Organization, but name calling the disciples.
Here:

Acts 11:25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. 26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

It was the citizens of Antioch, where Paul was converting a lot of disciples there, started to call those converts "Christians", a type of mild mocking, like we would call a group or a person: "goody-two-shoes".

Acts 26:27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.”
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”


King Agrippa used the mock-label "Christian" in his address to Paul, where you can almost hear the gentiles present laughing as he said that. And next here you will see that this 'name calling' was taking toll on the Believers, and the New Antioch converts!

1 Peter 4:
Suffering for God’s Glory
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.
14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter

No Believer would consider being called a "Disciple of Christ" shameful, but being mocked by being called a Christian (Goody-two-shoes), now that an get old real fast.

goody two-shoes:
noun

  1. The definition of a goody two shoes is a person who always does everything right and always follows the rules, so much so that it becomes annoying.
    An example of a goody two shoes is a person who always sits in front, waves her hand to answer every question in class and tattle tales on people on the playground
 
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awitch

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PloverWing

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Greetings @PloverWing the Christian Religion was established around 325AD, Jesus talked with people way before that, and soon after the Apostles wrote about him, and in their writings they all were very careful NOT to establish any Organized Religion, which was NOT his purpose for coming. Actually he mocked the Religion of the Jews, the very ones he came into to abolish, and did away with Religion and their meaningless practices and traditions. He called the Religious Pharisees hypocrites.

The Catholic Religion (c. 4 BC – c. AD 30) eventually, with the help of the pagan gods worshipping Emperor Constantine created a new Religion which they called "Christian" which they adapted into the Catholic Church, keeping most of their gods and statues, and renaming them by the names off the Apostles, Mary and so on as time went by. By this time, they confiscated most of the Scriptures from the heavily persecuted early church of God established by Christ Himself.
I don't see the same discontinuity that you do between the writings of the Apostles and the writings of the Nicene Council. As I read the writings of the theologians of the first few centuries of the church, I see a gradual development of the church's theology and organizational structure, until eventually we reach what would come to be known as the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

I gather from your user name that you disagree with the decision of the Nicene Council. I respect that. People like Arius, Apollinarius, and Nestorius helped the church as it developed and refined its theology. They came up with plausible answers to some of the questions early Christians asked, and wrestling with those proposed answers helped Christians to think more clearly about who Jesus was.
 
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Arius

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The historical record. We have primary source writings and photographs and his political history should be well documented in the National Archives.

You trust those 'historical records'?
Was Osama bin Laden really behind the 9-11 attacks? Did 500 people really get shot In Las Vegas this last "Worst Mass Shooting in US History"? .. this all will be "well documented in the National Archives" and in 50 to 100 years talked about as it was actually "recorded", not what it really was.
Photographs? You mean like NASA and their globe earth from space? Or their 'planets', and space-satellites? Is earth really a Globe just because 500 years ago they put globes in every classroom, in the whole world?

You know, for the past year I've been searching "National archives" and every other historical records, and going out with my 10" Celestron looking for Erths curvature, .. you know that 8" squared per mile curvature, .. and for the life of me, I cannot find it?? Seems 'no one can' without using 'convex lenses'!?

Just asking?
 
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TheOldWays

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You trust those 'historical records'?

If we can't trust or at least have a little trust in historical records from not even 200 years ago (eye witnesses to old Abe were still alive during WW2), anything that is beyond that we can probably just throw out the window for sure.
 
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Arius

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I don't see the same discontinuity that you do between the writings of the Apostles and the writings of the Nicene Council. As I read the writings of the theologians of the first few centuries of the church, I see a gradual development of the church's theology and organizational structure, until eventually we reach what would come to be known as the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

I gather from your user name that you disagree with the decision of the Nicene Council. I respect that. People like Arius, Apollinarius, and Nestorius helped the church as it developed and refined its theology. They came up with plausible answers to some of the questions early Christians asked, and wrestling with those proposed answers helped Christians to think more clearly about who Jesus was.

Well friend, it's either "helped Christians to think more clearly who Jesus was", .. or "Who this (then) Newly established Christian Religion says who he was/is"??


God bless you.
 
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Steve Petersen

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I would like for you all to list reasons why Jesus is and isnt historically correct. If he is then how do we know he is who he says he is. I am writing a paper on the matter.

Thank you!

Did Jesus make these claims about himself or were these words put into his mouth (so to speak) by later authors who had an agenda?
 
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