Is Jesus the Savior of the Whole World?

[Epoisses]

Please summarize your view of hell and while you are at it, please answer my question. Then I'll answer yours. Just being orderly.

ETA: If your view is unorthodox, we can move this to UTD>

My understanding of Hell is the lake of fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels and all those not written in the book of life which takes place after the millennium and great day of Judgment. We haven't reached that point yet.

 

[Epoisses]

And yes those who are not written in the book of life and end up in the lake of fire were in fact saved at the cross but they like Esau despised the gift and the giver and were lost forever.

 

[drstevej]

My understanding of Hell is the lake of fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels and all those not written in the book of life which takes place after the millennium and great day of Judgment. We haven't reached that point yet.

I can work with that. So are there saved people in the Lake of Fire?

 

[Epoisses]

I can work with that. So are there saved people in the Lake of Fire?

If Jesus saves me at the cross and offers this gift to me in my life and I refuse and am not born again (regenerated), am I saved or lost?

 

[drstevej]

If Jesus saves me at the cross and offers this gift to me in my life and I refuse and am not born again (regenerated), am I saved or lost?

Its your theology, you will need to answer.

 

[Epoisses]

Its your theology, you will need to answer.

No, it's the theology of Paul and John. Each had their own way of saying it.

Before we continue I would like your understanding of Romans chap. 5. Is the gift of justification given to all men or just the elect?

 

[drstevej]

No, it's the theology of Paul and John. Each had their own way of saying it.

Before we continue I would like your understanding of Romans chap. 5. Is the gift of justification given to all men or just the elect?

Justification is not a gift, it is a legal declaration. Flawed premise, question is meaningless.

 

[Epoisses]

Justification is not a gift, it is a legal declaration. Flawed premise, question is meaningless.

In Romans chap. 5 it's a gift. I knew you would run from that question.

 

[gmm4j]

Justification is not a gift, it is a legal declaration. Flawed premise, question is meaningless.

Titus 3:7-8
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

 

[nobdysfool]

Titus 3:7-8
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

This does not negate the fact that justification is a legal declaration by God.

It cracks me up when people start whipping out Scriptures as some sort of weapon. Your theology is crumbling, and you're grasping at straws, trying to find anything to keep from having to admit you're in error....

 

[gmm4j]

This does not negate the fact that justification is a legal declaration by God.

It cracks me up when people start whipping out Scriptures as some sort of weapon. Your theology is crumbling, and you're grasping at straws, trying to find anything to keep from having to admit you're in error....

Didn't say it did negate it. However, the legal declaration is by grace.

 

[nobdysfool]

Salvation and everything to do with it is by grace. Nothing new there!

 

[gmm4j]

Justification is not a gift, it is a legal declaration. Flawed premise, question is meaningless.

No kidding!

 

[Epoisses]

Justification is not a gift, it is a legal declaration. Flawed premise, question is meaningless.

OK, I'll play the semantics game.

Has the gift of righteousness which results in justification been given to all men or just the elect?

 

[Ignatius21]

OK, I'll play the semantics game.

Has the gift of righteousness which results in justification been given to all men or just the elect?

This does strike me as a question of semantics. Curious to see where this particular thought thread goes.

It seems to me that you are using "salvation" in a broad and universal sense (not "universalism," clearly you are not advocating that, and neither am I) and others are using it in the narrower sense of individual salvation...which (if I'm understanding you correctly) would be individuals who through faith are united to the salvation (the "gift of righteousness") given by God to all men in the broad sense.

So in the broad sense, yes, everyone who is in hell through his own obstinancy is "saved" by virtue of being human, and humanity was redeemed by Christ. But nobody who is "saved" in the sense of "having trusted in the Son of God and persevered to the end in faith" will be in the lake of fire. Am I basically getting your gist?

 

[drstevej]

OK, I'll play the semantics game.

Has the gift of righteousness which results in justification been given to all men or just the elect?

whom He justified, them He also glorified...

If all are justified, the result is universalism.

Do the math.

===

are there glorified folks in the Lake of Fire?

 

[gmm4j]

Righteousness, justification, glorification has been sufficiently provided for and available to all, and applied specifically to those who have faith.

 

[cygnusx1]

Well, technically every part of the sanctuary did point to Christ in some way but if you recall their were two goats. One was killed and one was presented alive. The scapegoat is most definitely not Christ.

Are you able to keep up or is this too far over your head?

Two young goats were selected "for a sin-offering;" though there were two animals, it was but one offering. Two goats were selected in order that a fuller representation might be given: the one being designed more expressly to exhibit the means,the other the effect of the atonement. They were brought and presented together before the Lord (v. 7), the Lord determining by lot which of them was to be slain. The other animal stood by and was atoned for (Hebrew of verse 10) by the dying victim, and then bore away the sins laid upon it into the land of eternal forgetfulness (vv. 21,22): a blessed figure of that remission of our sins when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Passing by what was done with the bullock, we confine our attention unto the two goats. After the one had been killed, the high priest took its blood within the veil and sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat not once, but seven times "before" Him to provide a perfect standing ground for His people. The antitype of this is seen in Hebrews 9:12, "But by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12). The consequence of this is that "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which he hath consecrated for us" (Heb. 10:19, 20).

After the high priest had finished his work inside the sanctuary, we are told, "he shall bring the live goat, and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel... and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities into a land not inhabited" (vv. 20-22).That was a continuation and completion of the ceremony concerning the sin-offering, so that this symbolic transfer of their sins to the head of the scapegoat, which bore them away, plainly signified that the atonement effected by the sacrifice of the first goat was the complete removal of all their transgressions from before the face of God.

"And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there" (Lev. 16:23). Why? To denote that his work was finished.The blessed antitype of this we see in Luke 24:12: on the resurrection morning, those who came to Christ’s empty sepulcher "beheld the linen clothes"lying there, a token that He was risen from the dead, and so of atonement completed, and accepted by God.

One other important feature in the types, often overlooked, claims our notice, namely, the burning of the victim’s body on the altar (Lev. 1:10 etc.). The animal was first slain as a just judgment for the sin which had been transferred to it by the laying on its head of the hand of the offerer; and then, after guilt had been borne, its flesh was laid on the altar and burned, and went up with acceptance unto God, a "sweet-smelling savor." In this was represented the glorious truth that, not only was Christ our sin-bearer, but that He is also our righteousness before God (Jer. 23:6; 2 Cor. 5:21). We are identified with Him not only in His death for us, but also in the fragrance of it before God.

In Numbers 19 there is yet another most important type upon which we can only now say a few words. In it we see how the death of Christ has made full provision for those defilements which His people contract while passing through this evil world. In it too we behold again the steady progress in the types, and the deeper instruction which God gave to Israel from time to time. They were yet in the land of Pharaoh when the passover was instituted: the doom of Egypt and their own deliverance therefrom were the thoughts then presented to their souls. Later, they were brought nigh to God, Himself tabernacling in their midst, and in Leviticus 16 they are shown the high demands of His holiness. Now in Numbers 19, they are taught that even the unavoidable contact with death (the world lying in the Wicked one) defiles. But God has provided cleansing from it.

In closing, we call attention to one other deeply important value of the types and the use to which they may be put: they furnish an infallible rule by which can be tested any man’s (our own included) interpretation of the New Testament Scriptures concerning the Atonement! He who denies the penal and vicarious nature of Christ’s death, repudiates the clear testimony of the types; he who sets aside the efficacy of His sacrifice by reducing it to a merely "making possible" the salvation of men does likewise, for the types know nothing of an ineffectual sacrifice. So too in them we see plainly the limitation of God’s love to His elect people, for no lamb was provided for the Egyptians, nor did Aaron make any atonement for the sins of the Midianites and Ammonites!

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...ion/sat_21.htm

 

[gmm4j]

Did it cover the likes of Korah, Jeroboam, Ahab, those who were evil in Israel?

Num 16:19-21
When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."

 

[gmm4j]

Was this possible? Was this within the ability of fallen unregenerate men?

Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.

Did foreigners have the ability to freely unite themselves with the house of Jacob?

Rahab, Ruth, Naaman?