Is Jesus the only one who can pay for our sins?

[Marvin Knox]

I don't understand what this means. Election to service means that all believers have been elected to serve God. Is that difficult to understand?

No - it's not hard to understand at all.

I proved that election is about service, but you've ignored it.

No - I have not ignored it. As well as arguing from the salvation position I have also argued under the assumption that your "proof" does indeed make election about service.

Do you not see the direct connection between Paul's election and service?

Sure. Who said I didn't. I would like you to see the connection between that service and salvation. But I realize that is too much to ask of you so I'll let it go for another time.

Your age has nothing to do with election. He elected you for service as a believer. And He did that before the foundation of the world.....I don't understand. Please clarify.

Here is the clarification:

He elected me before the foundation of the world and therefore before I was a believer. Since I was not a believer when I was elected - it is disingenuous to keep saying that he elected a believer - as if to deny that there was predestination involved in His election of me.

That's you purpose in your posing the statement the way that you do rather then the way it should be stated ---- namely that He elected a future person to be of service to Him (through salvation of course but I don't expect you to be honest enough to say that you see that necessity to be of the kind of service He desired).

You pretend to not know what is being said and why. That too is dishonest since we all know that you do understand my point.

Same old FreeGrace2. You don't change at all when it comes to playing games here.

And that isn't the issue. The issue is: elected to what? Or, elected for what purpose? That is the issue. Which I've shown to be for service, not salvation.

No - the issue is not that. The issue you are ducking is that what ever election in unto (salvation or service) - it was done before time and therefore represents inescapable predestination on God's part.

There is no way being technically correct should mislead anyone. And I disagree with trying to equate election with spending eternity as part of His body, which is just another way of expressing the Calvinist doctrine that God elects people to salvation by choosing who will believe.

You are trying to mislead everyone by avoiding what the real point is. Namely that God predestinated us to service as you say.

Considering the examples of service you have used He had to of necessity also predestine us to salvation. But I don't expect you to be honest enough to say that you see that. (which you do).

I've been very clear about what election means: to be elected or chosen for service. How is that hard to understand?

No. That's why I have granted you that even though you will not grant that that service requires salvation to accomplish and that it was predestined before time and not in time when we were believers.
The point, again, is that all election is prior to believing and therefore involves predestination by the creator.

The word "us" in 1:4 is defined in 1:19 as "believers".

No kidding. And "we" were predestined (elected, chosen etc.) before becoming believers. That's the point and the only point you are avoiding..

I have no idea why anyone would think what I have posted regarding election would be regarded as a misrepresentation.

Of course you do. Don't add out and out lying to what you have done here.

What does "cast around" mean? What I've done is clearly express what the Bible says clearly.

That's not "all" you have done. You have studiously tried to escape the inescapable implications of God's predestination of us and our service (and our salvation which must precede that service). (That's what I mean by "cast around".)

But I'm not wrong. Your claim is.

My claim is that God predestined service before we were believers. It is correct.

Your claim that God predestined "believers" for service, while technically correct, is wrong (sin) in that it purposefully tries to avoid what God has clearly taught in the scriptures.

You're going to have to explain how anything I've posted could be seen as misleading.

I have - in great detail.

You may feel that your gamesmanship is slick and cute. But I believe, as does God, that it is akin to lying and therefore sin.

If you continue to studiously avoid the implications of election and predestination I will leave you to it if I can resist checking back in. As usual I haven't been very good at leaving you to it.

I'll try harder. If I am successful - you will have the last word on the subject.

 

[EmSw]

His views certainly DON'T represent biblical Christianity. But he may have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation in the past. He did recently post that he used to believe what I believe. I've asked for clarification of what led to his apostatizing (change in what he believed).

I was raised a Lutheran, attended Southern Baptist and Assembly of God churches. I didn't apostatize; I asked and sought the Lord for His truth. This wasn't an 'overnight sensation'; it took years of seeking Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sure. Who said I didn't. I would like you to see the connection between that service and salvation. But I realize that is too much to ask of you so I'll let it go for another time.

I've already made the point that Eph 1:4 is about electing believers (that's SAVED people) for service.

Here is the clarification:

He elected me before the foundation of the world and therefore before I was a believer.

This sounds very much like being elected to believe, which NO verse says or even suggests.

Since I was not a believer when I was elected - it is disingenuous to keep saying that he elected a believer - as if to deny that there was predestination involved in His election of me.

Because there were NO believers before the foundation of the world, your comment is irrelevant and immaterial. The point is that He chose those who would believe to service.

That's you purpose in your posing the statement the way that you do rather then the way it should be stated ---- namely that He elected a future person to be of service to Him (through salvation of course but I don't expect you to be honest enough to say that you see that necessity to be of the kind of service He desired).

To be clear, election in the Bible also includes many unbelievers; the nation of Israel and Judas Iscariot. The nation was NOT saved, only some within that nation.

You pretend to not know what is being said and why.

Not only have I fully understood what is being said, I've corrected the errors.

The issue you are ducking is that what ever election in unto (salvation or service) - it was done before time and therefore represents inescapable predestination on God's part.

That isn't the issue at all. I've fully addressed that election occurred before the foundation of the world.

Instead of your claim that I do not understand the argument, it's you who doesn't understand my pov.

You are trying to mislead everyone by avoiding what the real point is. Namely that God predestinated us to service as you say.

Avoiding??? lol. But election isn't predestination.

Considering the examples of service you have used He had to of necessity also predestine us to salvation.

So you think Judas was saved??? Jesus was The Elect One. Was He chosen for salvation? lol.

But I don't expect you to be honest enough to say that you see that. (which you do).

I see the error of your view, for sure.

No. That's why I have granted you that even though you will not grant that that service requires salvation to accomplish and that it was predestined before time and not in time when we were believers.

The election of Eph 1:4 certainly involves saved people, but the verse does NOT support the idea that God chose who would believe.

The point, again, is that all election is prior to believing and therefore involves predestination by the creator.

This isn't in contention.

No kidding. And "we" were predestined (elected, chosen etc.) before becoming believers. That's the point and the only point you are avoiding..

Not at all. Again, this isn't in contention. One only has to read my posts to know that.

That's not "all" you have done. You have studiously tried to escape the inescapable implications of God's predestination of us and our service (and our salvation which must precede that service). (That's what I mean by "cast around".)

And you're wrong again. I have already clearly noted that it is to SAVED people that God elects to service in Eph 1:4. But not all elections involve saved people. Like Judas, and the ENTIRE nation of Israel.

My claim is that God predestined service before we were believers. It is correct.

If your view stopped there, I agree.

Your claim that God predestined "believers" for service, while technically correct, is wrong (sin) in that it purposefully tries to avoid what God has clearly taught in the scriptures.

So, my claim is correct but sin. Weird. lol.

You may feel that your gamesmanship is slick and cute. But I believe, as does God, that it is akin to lying and therefore sin.

This is delusional.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was raised a Lutheran, attended Southern Baptist and Assembly of God churches. I didn't apostatize; I asked and sought the Lord for His truth. This wasn't an 'overnight sensation'; it took years of seeking Him.

Your current views aren't even close to Scripture. Satan prowls around seeking whom he may devour. And he deceives the whole world.

 

[EmSw]

Your current views aren't even close to Scripture. Satan prowls around seeking whom he may devour. And he deceives the whole world.

Why question God's work in my life?

If human sacrifice is an abomination to God (and it is), why do you try so hard make it a foundational doctrine? I just don't understand this thinking. This is the doctrine of Molech. There is nothing you can say to justify human sacrifice...NOTHING!

Deuteronomy 12
30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’
31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Jeremiah 32
32 because of all the evil of the children of Israel and the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me to anger—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33 And they have turned to Me the back, and not the face; though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not listened to receive instruction.
34 But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

As you can read FG2, human sacrifice was not commanded by God, nor did it come into His mind that they should do this abomination, which God hates. IT IS A SIN! It is what God commands that we should be careful to observe, AND we are not to add to it nor take away from it.

God warns us not to worship the Lord our God in the way the nations did. The nations burned their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Why would Christians today worship God in the same way the nations did? We have been warned not to.

In Jeremiah 32, verse 34, the children of Israel set their abominations in God's house, to defile it. They turned their back to God and did not listen to receive instruction. Many, many Christians have set this abomination (the human sacrifice of Jesus) in God's house. Why? It's because they have not listened to God to receive instruction.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Your current views aren't even close to Scripture. Satan prowls around seeking whom he may devour. And he deceives the whole world."

Why question God's work in my life?

Do would anyone get such a cuestion from my post?? I said nothing about God's work period. I pointed out that your current views aren't even close to Scripture.

If human sacrifice is an abomination to God (and it is), why do you try so hard make it a foundational doctrine?

Jesus is the reality of the shadow "sacrificial lamb" in the OT. That's why John the baptizer referred to Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

I just don't understand this thinking. This is the doctrine of Molech. There is nothing you can say to justify human sacrifice...NOTHING!

When humans sacrifice humans, it's murder. Because their death accomplishes NOTHING for the human race.

What you continue to not understand is that Jesus' death on the cross (a sacrifice) was for all mankind. He paid the sin penalty and provides the free gift of eternal life for those who believe in Him for it.

Deuteronomy 12
30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’
31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Jeremiah 32
32 because of all the evil of the children of Israel and the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me to anger—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33 And they have turned to Me the back, and not the face; though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not listened to receive instruction.
34 But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

As you can read FG2, human sacrifice was not commanded by God, nor did it come into His mind that they should do this abomination, which God hates. IT IS A SIN! It is what God commands that we should be careful to observe, AND we are not to add to it nor take away from it.

Do you even understand the purpose of human sacrifice? It was to heighten sexual pleasure for the observers. There is absolutely NO REASON to compare the pagan human sacrifice with God's sacrifice with His Son for mankind.

One other thing you've competely FAILED to understand. Jesus' sacrifice had nothing to do with His humanity, so your claim that Marvin's and my theology includes "human sacrifice". Nothing could be farther from the TRUTH.

It was God's Son, Deity, who was sacrificed on the cross. And that death was NOT physical, but spiritual. Because Jesus was completely separated from His Father when He screamed from the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

It was His spiritual death that brings mankind spiritual life, via the free gift of eternal life.

So you can quit claiming our theology includes human sacrifice. It does NOT.

Jesus' physical death on the cross was IMMATERIAL to His sacrifice on behalf of mankind.

God warns us not to worship the Lord our God in the way the nations did.

And we don't.

The nations burned their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

To heighten their sexual pleasure. Apparently you've not studied the "groves" in the OT and why pagans sacrificed in the first place. Your ignorance of these things betray you.

Why would Christians today worship God in the same way the nations did? We have been warned not to.

And we don't, as I've just explained to you.

[QUTOE]In Jeremiah 32, verse 34, the children of Israel set their abominations in God's house, to defile it. They turned their back to God and did not listen to receive instruction. Many, many Christians have set this abomination (the human sacrifice of Jesus) in God's house. Why? It's because they have not listened to God to receive instruction.[/QUOTE]
Repeating for emphasis: Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was NOT a "human sacrifice". It was a divine sacrifice for mankind. Totally unlike pagan sacrifice. No comparison.

 

[bling]

How about giving your life for love?

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Just what do you consider the 'cause' to be?

Man’s objective initially is to obtain Godly type Love so man can fulfill his mission of Loving God (and secondly others) with all his heart, soul, mind and energy. The cause is God’s objective as it relates to man in doing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective in this life.

This “doing all He can” would include allowing Christ to go to the cross.

Exactly. That's what Jesus taught, repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He did not teach He had to go to the cross in order to forgive sins.



What do you mean by 'giving His only Son'?

Abraham demonstrated a total willingness to kill his son and there is no doubt he would do it, by what he did.

That puts Judaism and Christianity in a dilemma, doesn't it? We all could be living a lie.

It is my belief, that all truth is based upon the two great commandments. You shall love the Lord your God, and your neighbor. Anyone who teaches against these, or they are not needed, has corrupted God's truth. I think you will find every good thing from God comes from these two commandments.

There is no “dilemma” for those of us that believe the Bible is true.

If you get those two command’s “right” that is wonderful and I am not saying any more is needed, but Jesus add some explanation to these commands (like explaining who our neighbor is) and lots of examples in what is both needed and how to do it.

How many of the Gentiles were ignorant, or unlearned to whom Paul went? How many knew anything about salvation?

Does God give you wisdom, bling? Why are your writings not inspired? If God gives you wisdom, can your writings not be compared to other scriptures? If you don't have God's wisdom, should I believe anything you write?

Sorry, but what does that have to do with my comment?

Some that I write do seem to show greater wisdom than I have and hopefully were the result of the Spirit. You can believe anyone’s writing that is just repeating what is in scripture and taken correctly in context.

If sins are forgiven through repentance, what atonement is needed? Do forgiven sins need atonement? Are sins that are counted as though they were never committed need atonement?

A child who has repeatedly rebelliously disobeyed needs both forgiveness and fair/just Loving discipline (often mistranslated punishment in scripture). Correctly accepting fair/just Loving discipline will result in the growing from the experience.

I would describe “atonement” is a disciplining process.

Are you one who also believes in human sacrifices? God calls these an abomination. Will you shout these abominations from the mountain top, just like Marvin says he does?

We already talked about being living human sacrifices for the “cause”, so in that respect I do believe in human sacrifices.

So, was Jesus a criminal? Why was it used as a sacrifice of the Lord in your opinion? Do you recall God saying a sacrifice was acceptable by hanging on a cross?

Jesus really upset the existing “spiritual” leadership of the Jews and they provoked the people and the romans to have Jesus crucified.

I am the one personally needing Christ to be crucifixion and for his blood to be shed (God is not the blood thirsty one). God and Christ would have preferred Christ’s blood to continue flowing through His veins, but I need to know it is literally outside of body available to have it flow over my body and especially be available to be drunk by me in the partaking of communion, so I can literally feel that my heart has been heart wash clean when I drink the wine (I know the wine is not literally His blood), but I do need to know that blood was shed.

I want all the benefits that come with experiencing discipline:

It is a deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline which keeps them from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater severity to the disciplining the greater the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the how we will be disciplined for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent/judge needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent/judge.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child it is a teaching moment.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love if at all possible, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.

My sins require way more severe discipline then the discipline (atonement) for unintentional sins, but I will also need to be able to continue living, so God has provide a way for me to receive the most severe disciplining and yet be able to continue functioning and actual grow from the experience, because the greatest Love will also be experienced at the same time.

When I came to the realization Christ died because of my sins, I was cut to the heart (experienced a death blow), it was the worst thing that could happen to me and seems to be the same experience those on Pentecost felt in Acts 2:37 after realizing they tortured and murdered the Messiah.

We are reminded of this every time we take communion (one a week for me), but the pain of realizing what I have done is overshadowed by the greatest Love being experienced at the same time.

Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder was a ransom payment not only to free the child of God within me, but to also pay me as the kidnapper of that child, so I could accept this loving discipline.

A lot more can be said.

So, being part of the Bible does not guarantee it is 'inspired', right?

All those in the early church determined scripture and even though some books today also have the Apocrypha does not mean it is thought to be the same as scripture.

Do you want an example?

Romans 10
6 But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:

This is what Paul said. Supposedly he was quoting the OT. Let's see what the OT says.

Deuteronomy 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul took a lot of liberty to change what God said, don't you think? But, what would the unlearned Gentiles know about what God said in the OT?

First, Deuteronomy isn't talking about righteousness of faith. It's talking about the commandment which God commanded.

Second, it doesn't say who will go up to heaven to bring Christ down; it says who will go to heaven to bring God's commandment down, that we hear it and do it.

Third, and this is the biggie, IT DOES NOT SAY who will descend into the abyss, to bring up Christ from the dead! Paul clearly lied about what Deuteronomy said. Deuteronomy said who shall go over the sea to bring God's commandment to us, to make us hear it, that we may do it. If one cannot see how Paul changed the very word of God, then there is something wrong.

Fourth, Paul said the word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. God said, the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. God said nothing about a word of faith. This is what Paul preached, not what God said.

So I ask, who is giving us the truth and who is lying?

Where did Paul say he was explaining some verses in Deuteronomy?

There are also lots of duel prophecies found it the Old Testament where specifically it applies to King David, but also would apply to Christ and was later shown to apply to Christ.

You can go to atheist websites and find tons of thought to be contradictions and there Christian websites that answer all these thought to be contradictions, so we do not need to go there, you are searching just one side.

 

[EmSw]

Man’s objective initially is to obtain Godly type Love so man can fulfill his mission of Loving God (and secondly others) with all his heart, soul, mind and energy. The cause is God’s objective as it relates to man in doing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill their objective in this life.

This “doing all He can” would include allowing Christ to go to the cross.

Is this your idea of God? I wonder why you think God can nothing except that He allows Christ 'go to the cross'. Did Abraham fulfill his objective without a cross? Did Moses? Did David? Is God's love null and void without the cross?

Can a person not enter life just by keeping the commandments? Can a person not show his love to God by keeping His commandments? Where does a cross come into play here?

Abraham demonstrated a total willingness to kill his son and there is no doubt he would do it, by what he did.

Then why didn't God, though willing for Jesus to die, not just let Jesus live?

Besides, Abraham's sacrifice was not for sin. It's a bad choice to use as an example.

There is no “dilemma” for those of us that believe the Bible is true.

If you get those two command’s “right” that is wonderful and I am not saying any more is needed, but Jesus add some explanation to these commands (like explaining who our neighbor is) and lots of examples in what is both needed and how to do it.

But, He never added examples of Him going to the cross. Man so desperately wants Jesus on the cross. I'm sure most of Christianity would have cheered for Barabbas and wanted Jesus on the cross.

Sorry, but what does that have to do with my comment?

Some that I write do seem to show greater wisdom than I have and hopefully were the result of the Spirit. You can believe anyone’s writing that is just repeating what is in scripture and taken correctly in context.

Doesn't Peter say those who are unlearned and unstable wrest with Paul's writings to their destruction? How did Paul's writings save those who are unlearned and unstable?

What if Paul was hoping his wisdom was from the Spirit? What if it wasn't?

Repeating scripture by someone is a reason to believe them, right? See my comments below.

A child who has repeatedly rebelliously disobeyed needs both forgiveness and fair/just Loving discipline (often mistranslated punishment in scripture). Correctly accepting fair/just Loving discipline will result in the growing from the experience.

I would describe “atonement” is a disciplining process.

Atonement is a disciplining process? Really? Atonement as accomplished upon the altar in the OT. Does a father offer a bullock upon the altar every day to discipline his children?

Exodus 29:36
And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.

I respect what you say bling, but please do not make stuff up.

We already talked about being living human sacrifices for the “cause”, so in that respect I do believe in human sacrifices.

So you do believe in committing what God calls an abomination. Do you shout this abomination from the mountain tops like Marvin?

Jesus really upset the existing “spiritual” leadership of the Jews and they provoked the people and the romans to have Jesus crucified.

I'm sure most Christians today would do the same thing; they love for Jesus to be crucified.

I am the one personally needing Christ to be crucifixion and for his blood to be shed (God is not the blood thirsty one). God and Christ would have preferred Christ’s blood to continue flowing through His veins, but I need to know it is literally outside of body available to have it flow over my body and especially be available to be drunk by me in the partaking of communion, so I can literally feel that my heart has been heart wash clean when I drink the wine (I know the wine is not literally His blood), but I do need to know that blood was shed.

Wow, I don't know where to start with your comments. First, Jesus did not say we needed Him to be crucified. In fact, He told us to take up OUR OWN cross. He said nothing about His cross. Why not you crucify yourself and shed your own blood? Many do not know what to do with Jesus' truth.

Now you are getting on the absurd side. Jesus' blood has never flown over anyone's body. In fact, He said to drink His blood, which is on the inside, not the outside. How do you suppose physical blood can interact with spiritual realities?

I want all the benefits that come with experiencing discipline:

It is a deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline which keeps them from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater severity to the disciplining the greater the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the how we will be disciplined for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent/judge needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent/judge.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child it is a teaching moment.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love if at all possible, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.

My sins require way more severe discipline then the discipline (atonement) for unintentional sins, but I will also need to be able to continue living, so God has provide a way for me to receive the most severe disciplining and yet be able to continue functioning and actual grow from the experience, because the greatest Love will also be experienced at the same time.

When I came to the realization Christ died because of my sins, I was cut to the heart (experienced a death blow), it was the worst thing that could happen to me and seems to be the same experience those on Pentecost felt in Acts 2:37 after realizing they tortured and murdered the Messiah.

We are reminded of this every time we take communion (one a week for me), but the pain of realizing what I have done is overshadowed by the greatest Love being experienced at the same time.

I am not going to get into atonement as being discipline. If that's what you believe, then so be it.

Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder was a ransom payment not only to free the child of God within me, but to also pay me as the kidnapper of that child, so I could accept this loving discipline.

A lot more can be said.

So, you kidnapped yourself? Why not just release yourself? Why did you want to kidnap yourself? What did Jesus pay you for kidnapping yourself, and what did you do with this ransom? Why not kidnap yourself again and again and keep getting ransom payments?

Where did Paul say he was explaining some verses in Deuteronomy?

Well well. I guess I have to show you bling.

Romans 10
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Paul is speaking about Moses, correct? Where did Paul get Moses' writings? Or do you think Paul made these up? Paul actually changed what Moses wrote to justify his teachings of faith. Maybe we all can go find what we want in the OT, and change it to fit our beliefs. Why not? The champion of most Christians did it.

Besides, this is not the faith Jesus taught.

There are also lots of duel prophecies found it the Old Testament where specifically it applies to King David, but also would apply to Christ and was later shown to apply to Christ.

You can go to atheist websites and find tons of thought to be contradictions and there Christian websites that answer all these thought to be contradictions, so we do not need to go there, you are searching just one side.

If you want to follow Paul, please do. Those duel prophecies do not change the complete meaning and wording of what was written.

 

[EmSw]

Jesus is the reality of the shadow "sacrificial lamb" in the OT. That's why John the baptizer referred to Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".

John didn't say 'sacrificial' lamb. Lamb signifies innocence.

Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins without any sacrifice.

When humans sacrifice humans, it's murder. Because their death accomplishes NOTHING for the human race.

Exactly, a human sacrifice accomplished nothing for the human race. This would include the 'human sacrifice' of Jesus.

What you continue to not understand is that Jesus' death on the cross (a sacrifice) was for all mankind. He paid the sin penalty and provides the free gift of eternal life for those who believe in Him for it.

You still do not understand what a sacrifice is, nor how it is done. OT sacrifices were not hung on crosses; they were burnt. Once you understand the details of the OT sacrifice, you will see how absurd your view is.

Do you even understand the purpose of human sacrifice? It was to heighten sexual pleasure for the observers. There is absolutely NO REASON to compare the pagan human sacrifice with God's sacrifice with His Son for mankind.

Really? To heighten sexual pleasure? You really don't know about human sacrifices, do you?

Human sacrifice is the act of killing one or more human beings, usually as an offering to a deity, as part of a ritual. Human sacrifice has been practiced in various cultures throughout history. Victims were typically ritually killed in a manner that was supposed to please or appease gods, spirits, or the deceased, for example as a propitiatory offering. (Human sacrifice - Wikipedia)

Do you not say Jesus' 'sacrifice' was to APPEASE God? Do you not say it was a PROPITIATORY OFFERING?

One other thing you've competely FAILED to understand. Jesus' sacrifice had nothing to do with His humanity, so your claim that Marvin's and my theology includes "human sacrifice". Nothing could be farther from the TRUTH.

It is the truth! It is a human sacrifice. You are in denial.

It was God's Son, Deity, who was sacrificed on the cross. And that death was NOT physical, but spiritual. Because Jesus was completely separated from His Father when He screamed from the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Do you believe in Jesus' humanity? Was Jesus a human? Did Jesus' humanity stand at the foot of the cross while His 'Diety' was crucified? What a farce! This borders on absurdity! I see you have to go to extremes to satisfy your beliefs.

It was His spiritual death that brings mankind spiritual life, via the free gift of eternal life.

Sorry, it was His Life, not His death, which brings mankind life. That's like saying it was His lies which bring us truth.

So you can quit claiming our theology includes human sacrifice. It does NOT.

You are in denial! You also deny Jesus' humanity.

Jesus' physical death on the cross was IMMATERIAL to His sacrifice on behalf of mankind.

To heighten their sexual pleasure. Apparently you've not studied the "groves" in the OT and why pagans sacrificed in the first place. Your ignorance of these things betray you.

Sorry FG2, it was to appease their gods, the same thing you claim about Jesus. Did you not know Jesus pleased His Father at His baptism, and not the cross?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus is the reality of the shadow "sacrificial lamb" in the OT. That's why John the baptizer referred to Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"."

John didn't say 'sacrificial' lamb. Lamb signifies innocence.

Did I say that he said "sacrificial lamb"? And you again dodged my point. You ARE aware of the OT sacrificial lamb, right? But it seems you're totally unaware of the fact that the OT sacrifice was a picture or shadow of what would come. Which is Christ.

Exactly, a human sacrifice accomplished nothing for the human race. This would include the 'human sacrifice' of Jesus.

My point is that Jesus' sacrifice WASN'T "human sacrifice". His death was spiritual and was Deity being spiritually separated from His Father.

You still do not understand what a sacrifice is, nor how it is done. OT sacrifices were not hung on crosses; they were burnt. Once you understand the details of the OT sacrifice, you will see how absurd your view is.

The absurdity is ALL YOURS.

Really? To heighten sexual pleasure? You really don't know about human sacrifices, do you?

Human sacrifice is the act of killing one or more human beings, usually as an offering to a deity, as part of a ritual. Human sacrifice has been practiced in various cultures throughout history. Victims were typically ritually killed in a manner that was supposed to please or appease gods, spirits, or the deceased, for example as a propitiatory offering. (Human sacrifice - Wikipedia)

Wow. Such scholarly effort, huh. The word for "groves" in Ex 34:13-16 refers to "Asherah". From ISBE:
ASHERAH mistranslated "grove" in the King James Version, after the Septuagint and Vulgate)
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
v.16 -
Ex 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. This wasn't figurative, but literal.

Further, the "fires of Molech" also include orgies: The common denominator of all these traditions is the understanding of Moloch worship as the transfer of Jewish children to paganism either by delivering them directly to pagan priests or by procreation through intercourse with a pagan woman.
The Cult of Moloch

Do you not say Jesus' 'sacrifice' was to APPEASE God? Do you not say it was a PROPITIATORY OFFERING?

God's JUSTICE was satisfied by the sacrifice of His Son for sin. Those who fail to understand or reject this simply do NOT UNDERSTAND Christianity.

It is the truth! It is a human sacrifice. You are in denial.

The truth of your ignorance is revealed in your posts.

Do you believe in Jesus' humanity? Was Jesus a human? Did Jesus' humanity stand at the foot of the cross while His 'Diety' was crucified? What a farce! This borders on absurdity! I see you have to go to extremes to satisfy your beliefs.

More blatant ignorance. I have explained the significance of His death on the cross and His incidental physical death. But anyone is free to reject whatever they want to reject.

Sorry, it was His Life, not His death, which brings mankind life.

Ignorance, once again. The Bible contradicts and refutes your views again:
1 Peter 1:3 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
1 Peter 3:21 - and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

That's like saying it was His lies which bring us truth.

Your comments are irrational and delusional.

You are in denial! You also deny Jesus' humanity.

This is just idiotic. I never denied any such thing. Jesus was fully human and fully Deity. And I explained the issue in His death on the cross.

Sorry FG2, it was to appease their gods, the same thing you claim about Jesus. Did you not know Jesus pleased His Father at His baptism, and not the cross?

John refutes you unbiblical views in 1 John 2:2.

 

[bling]

Is this your idea of God? I wonder why you think God can nothing except that He allows Christ 'go to the cross'. Did Abraham fulfill his objective without a cross? Did Moses? Did David? Is God's love null and void without the cross?

As you stated the greatest command is: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. The Bible does not use the words: “Mission Statement”, but this command seems to fit that definition. The problem is with obtaining this unbelievable huge Godly type love so you can love completely. Godly type love is not some knee jerk reaction (instinctive) since that would make it robotic, so we are not born with this ability. God could also not force this Love on us since that would be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun (Godly type Love would not be obtained through that method).

This messed up world is the best situation for willing humans to obtain Godly type Love, so God causes or allows tragedies of all kinds, satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, death, hell and even sins to help willing individuals.

The only way I have seen individuals obtain Godly type Love is through what Jesus has taught us “…He that is forgiven much Loves much…” and Abraham, Moses, David and everyone else saved have all been forgiven much. Forgiveness does not require the cross, but fair/just loving disciplining of man’s sins does require the cross. Prior to the cross repentant people were forgiven (result of God’s Charity/Love), but not disciplined (translated punished in Ro. 3:25 where this is explained).

Can a person not enter life just by keeping the commandments? Can a person not show his love to God by keeping His commandments? Where does a cross come into play here?

“If you Love me you will obey me…” so Love comes first and without Love you can do nothing of value for God (1 Cor. 13:1-3). Adam and Eve lacked Godly type Love while in the Garden, so they could not obey on their own power.

One of the things the cross does is by helping us realize what a huge debt our sins created, so since we have been forgiven of such a unbelievable huge debt we will obtain automatically an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Then why didn't God, though willing for Jesus to die, not just let Jesus live?

I needed Christ to die, it is not God’s fault.

But, He never added examples of Him going to the cross. Man so desperately wants Jesus on the cross. I'm sure most of Christianity would have cheered for Barabbas and wanted Jesus on the cross.

I do agree there was substitution at the cross, but it was not Christ substituting for me, but the crowd shouting “crucify him”. My actions speak louder than words.

Doesn't Peter say those who are unlearned and unstable wrest with Paul's writings to their destruction? How did Paul's writings save those who are unlearned and unstable?

It takes those with the indwelling Holy Spirit to work with the unlearned to bring them to a better understanding of Paul.

Repeating scripture by someone is a reason to believe them, right? See my comments below.

No Joseph Smith Mohammad and even satan quoted scripture.

Atonement is a disciplining process? Really? Atonement as accomplished upon the altar in the OT. Does a father offer a bullock upon the altar every day to discipline his children?

Exodus 29:36
And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.

I respect what you say bling, but please do not make stuff up.

The sin offering of the bullock is part of atonement and not the atonement itself. The Blood was used for cleansing the same as Christ’s blood will be used for cleansing in the future.

Wow, I don't know where to start with your comments. First, Jesus did not say we needed Him to be crucified. In fact, He told us to take up OUR OWN cross. He said nothing about His cross. Why not you crucify yourself and shed your own blood? Many do not know what to do with Jesus' truth.

Jesus is doing what I need done and I know it because He did it.

Paul seems to convey this idea with Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ…”, Paul is not saying Christ took my place in His crucifixion, but says he has been crucified with Christ. While Christ was being crucified I would think out of a strong empathy for Christ God the Father was being crucified with Christ and would have experienced even great pain and sorrow. As our Love for Christ grows will we not experience a greater empathy for what Christ went through?

Have you been crucified with Christ and how did you experience it?

Now you are getting on the absurd side. Jesus' blood has never flown over anyone's body. In fact, He said to drink His blood, which is on the inside, not the outside. How do you suppose physical blood can interact with spiritual realities?

1 John 1:7 and if in the light we may walk, as He is in the light -- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son doth cleanse us from every sin;

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

So, you kidnapped yourself? Why not just release yourself? Why did you want to kidnap yourself? What did Jesus pay you for kidnapping yourself, and what did you do with this ransom? Why not kidnap yourself again and again and keep getting ransom payments?

The perceived pleasures of sin for a season draw me away (like the young son who left his father). Jesus paid a ransom of himself being tortured, humiliated and murdered. I accepted what he did because of me and for me, so I could be crucified with Him (empathetically) and thus receive the Loving discipline for my rebellious disobedience. How many times do you want to go through crucifixion?

Well well. I guess I have to show you bling.

Romans 10
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Paul is speaking about Moses, correct? Where did Paul get Moses' writings? Or do you think Paul made these up? Paul actually changed what Moses wrote to justify his teachings of faith. Maybe we all can go find what we want in the OT, and change it to fit our beliefs. Why not? The champion of most Christians did it.

Besides, this is not the faith Jesus taught.

Paul is teaching: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

It seems at this time the Jewish Roman Christians were putting Jesus, so Paul is saying what they were saying.

 

[EmSw]

1 John 1:7 and if in the light we may walk, as He is in the light -- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son doth cleanse us from every sin;

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

I will get to the other things later, but I am glad you brought this up, bling. The blood of Jesus seems to baffle a lot of people. From natural thinking, people see the blood as natural, and not spiritual.

Think about this, has anyone been bathed (washed) by Jesus' natural blood? Be honest. No one in Jesus' day was washed by His natural blood, much less anyone today.

Now, let's see if we can discern what blood means from the above verses. One thing we see is that we are cleansed by His blood. If we look at the following verses, we will see what cleanses us.

Psalm 119:9
How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word.

John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

John 17:17
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

It is His word which cleanses us. As you see, the blood of Jesus spiritually, is the word of Jesus, or truth. We all know truth is spiritual. Now we have a spiritual solution to a spiritual problem.

Now we can see what Jesus meant by 'drinking His blood'. Drinking signifies putting inside you, appropiating to yourself internally, that is, in your heart. We are to heed or obey His word, His truth that He sows within us. These verses bring this out -

Psalm 119:11
Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You.

Proverbs 7:1
My son, keep my words, and treasure my commands within you.

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “it is written, ‘man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Luke 8:15
But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Can anyone get to Jesus' natural blood to drink it, sprinkle it, or be washed in it and be cleansed? NO WAY! But every man has access to His truth, which is His word. The seed which the sower sows is His word, and man has this seed sown in his heart. Just hearing the word with external (natural) ears avails nothing; it must be put inside man's noble and good heart. When man keeps His word, he is cleansed by the word, not physical blood.

Now perhaps, one can see what Jesus meant by the following words -

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

His blood of the New Covenant did not occur on the cross; Jesus gave us His 'blood' during His lifetime ministry. Notice His blood is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins. His word, or truth, is shed (bestowed, distributed) for many. How is His word distributed?

Mark 4:14
The sower sows the word.

Jesus Himself distributes His word, which He did during His lifetime ministry. And He is still sowing the seed today. If man will prepare his heart (good ground) and keeps the word sown in his heart, he will be cleansed and sanctified by the truth. All this takes place without a sacrifice, and without physical blood. I hope this helps.

 

[StevenBelievin]

We find from Paul that the wages of sin is death. All men die. All men pay for their sins.

In that verse Paul has damnation in mind or spiritual death because the opposite is Eternal life as God's gift.

The wages if sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

So, what's the opposite of eternal life? Eternal death or damnation..

 

[Butch5]

In that verse Paul has damnation in mind or spiritual death because the opposite is Eternal life as God's gift.

The wages if sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

So, what's the opposite of eternal life? Eternal death or damnation..

Right dead for eternity, not spiritual death. There is no such thing in the Bible as spiritual death that would pertain to humans. The wages of sin is death, all men sin, all men die. The gift of God is eternal life. Those who believe will be raised to live and not die anyone that is eternal life. Those who don't believe will be raised and will die again, this is the second death.

 

[EmSw]

The only way I have seen individuals obtain Godly type Love is through what Jesus has taught us “…He that is forgiven much Loves much…” and Abraham, Moses, David and everyone else saved have all been forgiven much. Forgiveness does not require the cross, but fair/just loving disciplining of man’s sins does require the cross. Prior to the cross repentant people were forgiven (result of God’s Charity/Love), but not disciplined (translated punished in Ro. 3:25 where this is explained).

bling, many were disciplined in the OT. First, we have Adam and Eve. Second, we have Moses. Third, we have David. The children of Israel were disciplined many times.

 

[bling]

bling, many were disciplined in the OT. First, we have Adam and Eve. Second, we have Moses. Third, we have David. The children of Israel were disciplined many times.

Fair/just Loving discipline for rebelliously disobeying God would take more then I see anyone getting in the old testament, do you feel it is fair disciplining?

 

[EmSw]

Fair/just Loving discipline for rebelliously disobeying God would take more then I see anyone getting in the old testament, do you feel it is fair disciplining?

Sure, it's fair disciplining. David's heart was torn apart after his adulterous affair. Was there more you wanted for his discipline? How about God not letting David build His house? How about the death of David's son?

2 Samuel 12:14
“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die”

 

[bling]

Sure, it's fair disciplining. David's heart was torn apart after his adulterous affair. Was there more you wanted for his discipline? How about God not letting David build His house? How about the death of David's son?

2 Samuel 12:14
“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die”

David needs to be crucified "with" Christ, like Paul experienced, but David cannot.

 

[EmSw]

David needs to be crucified "with" Christ, like Paul experienced, but David cannot.

Say what? Surely you kid. From where do you get your doctrines?

So, losing his child wasn't enough discipline for you.

 

[bling]

Say what? Surely you kid. From where do you get your doctrines?

So, losing his child wasn't enough discipline for you.

David in the Psalms talks about going to his child after death. My wife and I lost a baby at 10 weeks and it was extremely difficult, but that baby was not torture, humiliate and murdered. I consider being crucified with Christ much more severe.
David was forgiven but not "disciplined" for his sins.