• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is Jesus Gods first creation ?

overcomer

AKA 'OntheDL'
Mar 25, 2004
292
73
✟13,696.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Not in real life -- in real life God is far more complex than that.

So then "IN the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" Matt 28 - 3 persons.
And of course Matt 22 - ONE God.
Matt 28 doesn't say anything about the relationship and distinction among the three. It doesn't even say they are three separate/distinct persons. And that is despite the fact the bible plainly says the holy spirit is the spirit of Christ and Christ is the comforter (and EGW confirmed in exact language).

In Christ is life - unborrowed - underived.
SDA triniterians like to quote this EGW quote (while ignoring hundreds of other EGW anti-triniterian quotes) as if she could have written something that is different from what the bible teaches.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And the triniterians claim EGW introduced the concept of trinity into our denomination that previously didn't accept it. But the things is that there is no record of EGW reproving the pioneers of their non-triniterian belief while there are records of the opposite of reproving chapman and Dr. Kellogg of introducing triniterian concepts. And her sons continued in the pioneers' position even after EGW's death. ML Andreasen who supposedly asked EGW personally about that very quote in DA continued in the pioneer's position until the days of his death. And Leroy Froom who co-authored Questions on Doctrine complained the 'old timers' rejected his new book 'Trinity' published in 1930s.

Apparently EGW had a new revelation and advocated trinity in DA and in Evangelism (compiled and published in 1950s) but didn't bother to tell and teach anyone about it, not even her own sons. :wave:
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,387
11,929
Georgia
✟1,098,277.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Matt 28 doesn't say anything about the relationship and distinction among the three. It doesn't even say they are three separate/distinct persons.

Not true of the Bible though. The Bible says it all.

Three persons "In the NAME of the Father, the Son AND The Holy Spirit" Matt 28
"Another Comforter" - John 14... "HE the Spirit of Truth when HE comes HE will guide you into all truth". John 16.
"The Holy Spirit says..." Hebrews 3.

And that is despite the fact the bible plainly says the holy spirit is the spirit of Christ and Christ is the comforter (and EGW (Ellen White) confirmed in exact language).

Ellen White calls the Holy Spirit the "THIRD PERSON of the Godhead".


Not sure why you are calling for Ellen White support here.
 
Upvote 0

overcomer

AKA 'OntheDL'
Mar 25, 2004
292
73
✟13,696.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Not true of the Bible though. The Bible says it all.

Three persons "In the NAME of the Father, the Son AND The Holy Spirit" Matt 28
Singular, indicating one, not three. Again the verse says nothing about three separate persons.

"Another Comforter" - John 14... "HE the Spirit of Truth when HE comes HE will guide you into all truth". John 16.
"The Holy Spirit says..." Hebrews 3.
Look at the very next verse:

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
And Jesus continued to say
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Who's that comforter? According to Jesus? Himself! Not a spirit that is distinct separate person.

Ellen White confirmed this
"Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, “the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in My name.” “I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you” [John 14:16, 17]. This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter. ...—Letter 7, 1891.{14MR 180.4}

Who did apostle Paul say is the holy spirit? The spirit of Christ!

Rom 8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Gal 4
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ellen White calls the Holy Spirit the "THIRD PERSON of the Godhead".
Triniterians like to quote from this one book Evangelism compiled and published in 1956 while ignoring everything else she wrote.

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as scripture is explained by scripture.” {Selected Messages Book 1, p42

Do not take one verse out of context. Allow her own testimonies to explain themselves.

“The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own character upon the church.” {Review and Herald, May 19, 1904 par. 3}

“Christ tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, and the Comforter is the Holy Ghost, "the Spirit of truth, which the Father shall send in My name." … This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter.” {Manuscript Releases Vol.14, p. 179}

“The divine Spirit that the world's Redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God.” {E. G. White, Signs of the Times, November 23, 1891}

There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness.” {Steps to Christ, p. 18}

The Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the only begotten Son of God, binds the human agent, body, soul, and spirit, to the perfect, divine-human nature of Christ.” {E. G. White, Review and Herald, April 5, 1906 par. 16}

“Christ declared that after his ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who was to take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of the world. With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes away sin.” {E. G. White, Review and Herald, May 19, 1904 par. 1}

Allow EGW to explain herself, the holy spirit is the spirit of Christ and the power and presence of God, not a separate, distinct, co-equal, co-eternal third person.

Not sure why you are calling for Ellen White support here.
Because you quoted from DA. I believe Ellen White was a messenger of God and I take her testimonies as a whole, not just a quote here and there that fit my preconceived ideas.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

CaptainToad

Active Member
Feb 7, 2015
331
108
✟28,139.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
How would you be able to know the Savior if His personality is distorted? How would you know if you are worshipping the one true God of the bible or some mystery Holy Trinity of Babylon the Great.

You see the blessed group has the Father's name written on their foreheads. And Babylon the Great has this mystery written on her forehead.
Mystery trinity?
Well, in my case knowing means experiencing. I dont worship God in the most intellectual fashion I guess. Its not that I made a choice in the past to worship an intellectual construct which changes shape based on the intellectual input I get.
My faith is rather simple, I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and am saved through His Jesus Christ. What else is there to know?
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
God in three persons, triune God with 3 equal, co-eternal parts, triquetra, nor whatever it's called destroys Christ's sonship.
Are you saying that the Son is NOT GOD?
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Singular, indicating one, not three. Again the verse says nothing about three separate persons.
"Three separate persons" indicates tri-theism (3 different gods) rather than trinity (or tri-unity).

I think we all reject that notion.

BTW - how do you see the "Ancient of Days" and the "Son of Man" from Daniel 7?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

overcomer

AKA 'OntheDL'
Mar 25, 2004
292
73
✟13,696.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying that the Son is NOT GOD?
Christ is divine because He got His divinity from the Father through inheritance Hebrews 1:4 because He is the only begotten Son of God, not because He was co-equal and co-eternal second person of the trinity.

The Son has eternal life in Himself because the Father gave it to Him. John 5:26.

The Father granted the Son the position of power and authority to 'sit on His right hand' because Christ is God's only begotten son.

If you accept Paul's formula, he repeatedly used the phrase 'God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ'. And no where in the bible Christ is called 'God the Son' explicitly as in the triniterian formula.

And that's a problem for the triniterians who believe in this triune God of three co-equal, co-divine parts. Remember whom Jesus told the woman by the well to worship? "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the trueworshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and intruth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.", John 4:23. Not a trinity or a triune God. The Father alone should receive worship according to Jesus.

"Three separate persons" indicates tri-theism (3 different gods) rather than trinity (or tri-unity).
I think we all reject that notion.
That's the mystery that nobody understands. Three distinct persons which is tri-theism yet the three are one. Some mental gymnastics. 1+1+1 = 1. That's a mystery the bible does not teach.

BTW - how do you see the "Ancient of Days" and the "Son of Man" from Daniel 7?
That's exactly what it is. The Father and the Son. No God the holy spirit mentioned in this judgment scene.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
John 1.1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14a And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,

So John was ok calling Jesus "God."

Paul calls Jesus "Lord" innumerable times. To a Jew - there is only one Lord: God (that we would call God the Father) So Paul is ok with calling Jesus "God."

As to the Holy Spirit, I find this statement interesting:

Mk 3.28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

And in Luke's rendering of that statement in 12.10: And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

BTW - "Son of Man" is a term of divinity. Taken from Daniel 7.
 
Upvote 0

overcomer

AKA 'OntheDL'
Mar 25, 2004
292
73
✟13,696.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
John 1.1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14a And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us,

So John was ok calling Jesus "God."
No real problem here. The problem is how Christ has divinity. Because he was begotten of the Father or because he is second person of the co-equal Trinity.

Paul calls Jesus "Lord" innumerable times. To a Jew - there is only one Lord: God (that we would call God the Father) So Paul is ok with calling Jesus "God."
Not all the words 'Lord' are the same in Hebrew. For example in Psalms 110:1 'the LORD said unto my Lord'
All caps LORD is YHWH, the self existing one.
Lower case Lord means master, not necessarily divine. This word is often used for humans.

As to the Holy Spirit, I find this statement interesting:

Mk 3.28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”

And in Luke's rendering of that statement in 12.10: And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

BTW - "Son of Man" is a term of divinity. Taken from Daniel 7.
To say from those verses to deduct holy spirit is the third person of the trinity is jumping too far.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not all the words 'Lord' are the same in Hebrew. For example in Psalms 110:1 'the LORD said unto my Lord'
All caps LORD is YHWH, the self existing one.
Lower case Lord means master, not necessarily divine. This word is often used for humans.
There are no "upper" or "lower case" letters in biblical Hebrew.

Yud Hay Vav Hay is the proper name of God. He is also referred to as Adon (Lord) or Adonai (my Lord). It has been the habit since way before NT times to not even try to pronounce Yud Hay Vav Hay and just say Adonai (my Lord). Obviously Yud Hay Vav Hay does not carry over into Greek. But Paul's usage of Lord (adonai) is consistent with the usage of the day in referring to God.
 
Upvote 0

overcomer

AKA 'OntheDL'
Mar 25, 2004
292
73
✟13,696.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
There are no "upper" or "lower case" letters in biblical Hebrew.

Yud Hay Vav Hay
is the proper name of God. He is also referred to as Adon (Lord) or Adonai (my Lord). It has been the habit since way before NT times to not even try to pronounce Yud Hay Vav Hay and just say Adonai (my Lord). Obviously Yud Hay Vav Hay does not carry over into Greek. But Paul's usage of Lord (adonai) is consistent with the usage of the day in referring to God.

Of course there is no upper lower cases. They are english translation to distinguish the two.

The Greek word for Lord does not necessarily mean God just as Adon doesn't necessarily mean God. That's what I was trying to show you.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I knew that already. But I was saying that HOW Paul used Lord was the same as the Jewish usage of Adon in referring to God. Context brother!

When he wrote "the Lord Jesus" or "Jesus is Lord," Jewish ears would hear the clear message: "Jesus is God. "
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,522
16,853
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟772,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Can we just accept what the bible says and stop the mental gymnastics?
Only to the extent that it can be determined what the Bible says in the original language with the intent of the author.

Just taking some translator's take on it in English is insufficient.
 
Upvote 0

Lord Kyrios

Active Member
Oct 29, 2016
33
9
64
USA
✟22,923.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Was Jesus Gods first creation?
If All things were created THROUGH HIM (JESUS), How can He be God's FIRST Created thing? Remember, ALL THINGS would include Jesus being first created by God. Ponder over John 1:10 here Jesus MADE THE WORLD. This does not sound like a created being but the creator.
Did you know Jesus Is called Kupios & God Is called Kupios In The Greek Bible. Every Title that applies to God, also applies to Jesus in the Greek.
Example: Jesus is Kupie, Kupiw, Kupiou and God is Kupie, Kupiw, Kupiou. Jesus is God Because His Father is God.
In other words, Your ONLY BEGOTTEN Son inherited your last name so why cannot Jesus be called by His Father's Name, GOD?
 
Upvote 0