Is Jesus Gods first creation ?

[Dave-W]

So when the Father talks to the Son, that's Jesus talking to Himself?

In my talks with the modalists from the United Pentecostal Church (UPCI) that is the impression I get. They think that HE was talking to Himself as an example to his disciples. Other Oneness denominations may understand it somewhat differently.

Also when the bible says Jesus is the Son of God, He really is the Son of Himself?

Not exactly. They take "Father" and "Son" as roles, not real relationships.

 

[Dave-W]

Yeah, that's the main problem of Trinity that it denies the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

I would take that as a problem of modalism.

 

[BobRyan]

Was Jesus Gods first creation?

Jesus is God the Son - incarnate. God the Son was never created.

 

[BobRyan]

So when the Father talks to the Son, that's Jesus talking to Himself?

Also when the bible says Jesus is the Son of God, He really is the Son of Himself?

Which is not the "one God in Three Persons" form of the trinitarian doctrine.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Maybe we need to look at this from another angle.... what, in your opinion, does the relationship between the Father and Son look like to you guys. I think that may be where our difference lies.... but hopefully not. Is the Father subject to the Son as the Son is to the Father or is there a hierarchy among the three?

 

[CaptainToad]

Maybe we need to look at this from another angle.... what, in your opinion, does the relationship between the Father and Son look like to you guys. I think that may be where our difference lies.... but hopefully not. Is the Father subject to the Son as the Son is to the Father or is there a hierarchy among the three?

Very hard to tell for me. What can the created say about the Creator?

The only things I deem worthy to know is that the Father and Son are one and there is no other way to the father but Jesus

 

[newlightseven]

God The Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit always was. I know it is hard to comprehend that they didn't have a beginning but was. And they are one.

 

[Dave-W]

what, in your opinion, does the relationship between the Father and Son look like to you guys.

Trying to define that is where EVERYONE gets into trouble.

Is the Father subject to the Son as the Son is to the Father or is there a hierarchy among the three?

Scripture taken at face value certainly indicates a hierarchy with the Father on top.

But perhaps more germane - Is the Father also the Son?

 

[Dave-W]

The only things I deem worthy to know is that the Father and Son are one and there is no other way to the father but Jesus

But what do you mean by "one?" Echad or yachad? Composite unity or absolute singularity?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Very hard to tell for me. What can the created say about the Creator?

The only things I deem worthy to know is that the Father and Son are one and there is no other way to the father but Jesus

I think it's important to know these things as they pertain to out relationships here on earth.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Trying to define that is where EVERYONE gets into trouble.

But it's clearly laid out in the Bible....

Scripture taken at face value certainly indicates a hierarchy with the Father on top.

How much clearer can it be... I mean if we can't take the Bible at face value, then aren't we adding our own spin?

But perhaps more germane - Is the Father also the Son?

Maybe elaborate a little more on your thought? Is there scripture that indicates so?

 

[Dave-W]

But it's clearly laid out in the Bible....

Not really. Scripture tells us of a Father and a Son and a Spirit. It also tells us of 7 Spirits. It also says that God is ONE [echad] meaning a composite unity.

Maybe elaborate a little more on your thought? Is there scripture that indicates so?

The modalists like to take up Deut 6.4 "God is one" but the word is NOT yachad which would indicate an absolute singularity. THey also like to use Jn 10.30 where Our Lord says "I and the Father are one.” Again they take that as an absolute singularity.

IMO you basically have 2 choices - One God in three persons (Father Son Spirit); or you have One God in one person who takes on various roles depending on the situation.

 

[Geralt]

come and see.
http://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

Yeah, that's the main problem of Trinity that it denies the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Dave-W]

Yeah, that's the main problem of Trinity that it denies the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Then you have the WRONG trinity model.

But as I have said earlier, once you try to drill much deeper than "One God, Three Persons" you get into trouble.

 

[CaptainToad]

I dont really care about knowibg these things. I believe that salvation and faith is not baswd on intellectuality or knowledge. Atudying yourself deep into matyets doesnt bring you any closer, otherwlwise it would be pretty unfair in regard to people with lesser intellect or access to knowledge. Faith and salvation are accessible to anybody! Because they come from God and not from studying. In fact I have observed thst the more people get into theory the more they get out of practice which might be the more important side of the coin

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I dont really care about knowibg these things. I believe that salvation and faith is not baswd on intellectuality or knowledge. Atudying yourself deep into matyets doesnt bring you any closer, otherwlwise it would be pretty unfair in regard to people with lesser intellect or access to knowledge. Faith and salvation are accessible to anybody! Because they come from God and not from studying. In fact I have observed thst the more people get into theory the more they get out of practice which might be the more important side of the coin

You are right, that salvation is not based on intellect just as justification isn't based on our merit. Sanctification (the ongoing working out of our salvation) is our responsibility coupled with God's Grace. Getting to know more about the Father and Son is, I believe, the desire that God puts in us to know Him. We can do that through prayer, experiencing the Holy Sprit in our lives and also through studying the Word.

Why wouldn't you want to know as much as possible in this life about the one the came and gave His life for us? Not only Jesus but the Father as well and their relationship with each other? As I have previously said, the model of Their relationship, guides us in our relationships here on earth. How do I know how I'm supposed to relate to my wife and her to me, if we don't know the pattern given to us to follow? I think this lack of knowledge within Christendom has led to women being the heads of their households because men don't understand the divine pattern for family relationships and have abdicated their role as priest in the home. Also, within the church, women being the head of the congregation that upsets the balance of what God intended. These aren't my own opinions or ideas but come directly from scripture and also by prayerfully understanding the Father/Son relationship. They are One, as the earthly family is one but there is a prescribed hierarchy that has been ordained to prevent confusion and discord.

 

[overcomer]

Which is not the "one God in Three Persons" form of the trinitarian doctrine.

God in three persons, triune God with 3 equal, co-eternal parts, triquetra, nor whatever it's called destroys Christ's sonship. And I still have not been able to find Christ's title of 'God the Son' in the bible.

 

[overcomer]

I dont really care about knowibg these things. I believe that salvation and faith is not baswd on intellectuality or knowledge. Atudying yourself deep into matyets doesnt bring you any closer, otherwlwise it would be pretty unfair in regard to people with lesser intellect or access to knowledge. Faith and salvation are accessible to anybody! Because they come from God and not from studying. In fact I have observed thst the more people get into theory the more they get out of practice which might be the more important side S of the coin

How would you be able to know the Savior if His personality is distorted? How would you know if you are worshipping the one true God of the bible or some mystery Holy Trinity of Babylon the Great.

You see the blessed group has the Father's name written on their foreheads. And Babylon the Great has this mystery written on her forehead.

 

[bookofjade]

Was Jesus Gods first creation?

Nothing can be created or destroyed, only to be made into something else. Look at genesis, there was not nothing there.

There was

The void
The deep
and
The waters

 

[BobRyan]

God in three persons, triune God with 3 equal, co-eternal parts, triquetra, nor whatever it's called destroys Christ's sonship. .

Not in real life -- in real life God is far more complex than that.

So then "IN the NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" Matt 28 - 3 persons.
And of course Matt 22 - ONE God.

In Christ is life - unborrowed - underived.