Is Jesus God

[yogosans14]

@Ozspen Thank you for being kind and honest about the subject.

how can you deny these:

The Father is to be worshiped:
John 4:23, ASV, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers

Mark 10:18, DRC, And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

Notice Jesus never claims equlaity with God in Mark 10:18.

Also look at Matthew 24:36 and John 14:28
Matthew 24:36--“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

John 14:28--You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.(NASB)

These 2 scriptures totally contradict the Trinity doctrine.

Also how come the Holy Spirit is never called God in any scripture?Look at John 10:30--"I and the father are one"

How come it makes NO mention whatsoever of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Zeleste]

@Ozspen Thank you for being kind and honest about the subject.

how can you deny these:

The Father is to be worshiped:
John 4:23, ASV, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers

Mark 10:18, DRC, And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

Notice Jesus never claims equlaity with God in Mark 10:18.

Also look at Matthew 24:36 and John 14:28
Matthew 24:36--“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

John 14:28--You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.(NASB)

These 2 scriptures totally contradict the Trinity doctrine.

Also how come the Holy Spirit is never called God in any scripture?Look at John 10:30--"I and the father are one"

How come it makes NO mention whatsoever of the Holy Spirit?

You are quoting verses refering to Jesus. Jesus is Christ incarnated; is Christ emptyed of being equal to God. Christ being equal to God emptyed himself (of being equal) and incarnate as man (as Jesus).

No wonder why Jesus is talking like that; he is lower than the angels. Who is lower than the angels? The author of Hebrew clarifies that Christ was lower of the angels for a short time. Christ was lower than the angels only for the short time of his incarnation emptyed of being equal to God. It means than the rest of the eternity (except for the years of the incarnation) Christ was not lower than the angels, but equal to God.

 

[OzSpen]

I will do an extence review of the article.

Is it possible I be wrong? Offcourse it is. But nobody yet have showme wrong. But I answer you with a question. In the 5th century it was formulated a doctrine with the total prohibition to ponder it. The Chalcedon Creed declare that it is prohibited for everybody to ponder, think, study or meditate in the double nature of Christ. The Creed says that Jesus has two natures (not giving any biblical support) and impose it prohibiting to be studied. It has to be accepted, repeated and teached without any understanding.

10 centuries elapsed in wich the Pope has the final truth in all doctrines. then comes luther with the reform, but he didnt adress the HU doctrine.

Dont you think that a doctrine that has been imposed with the prohibition of study it (other than teach) it is a sign of not having any biblical support? do you know of any doctrinal book supporting with the bible the next?
there is at least two types of spirits: divine and human
Jesus has both spirits coexisting and not mixed.

If I wrote a paper or did an exam in any of my college, university and seminary classes like you have done, I would be failed.

I appreciate that this is not a college class, but support of your statements is needed.

You have provided not one piece of documentation to support your claims. They are nothing more than your assertions. They may or may not be true, but you'll have to demonstrate that with documented evidence.

See 'Can we dispense with Chalcedon?' by Gerald Bray (1978).

Oz

 

[Zeleste]

If I wrote a paper or did an exam in any of my college, university and seminary classes like you have done, I would be failed.

I appreciate that this is not a college class, but support of your statements is needed.

You have provided not one piece of documentation to support your claims. They are nothing more than your assertions. They may or may not be true, but you'll have to demonstrate that with documented evidence.

See 'Can we dispense with Chalcedon?' by Gerald Bray (1978).

Oz

Offcourse that all theologist and teacher will tell I am wrong. But the truth is that I have proven beyond any doubt that all of them are wrong. And prove how wrong they are is too easy since all what they argue is simple personal assertions without any documented evidence.
What exactly do you feel need additional arguamentation from my side.

 

[Zeleste]

Offcourse that all theologist and teacher will tell I am wrong. But the truth is that I have proven beyond any doubt that all of them are wrong. And prove how wrong they are is too easy since all what they argue is simple personal assertions without any documented evidence.

Jesus' Two Natures: God and Man

by Matt Slick
Jesus is the most important person who has ever lived since he is the savior, God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. In other words, Jesus has two distinct natures (Matt Slick commences his presentation saying that there is two distinc natures: divine and human. But he did not prove that extreme) : divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14) (He is now contradicting himself and pretend he is confirming his statements. John and Slick are saying that Christ being God, was made fesh. What they are saying is that it was not any addition of a second nature but a transformation. But as all HU teachers he pretend that John is talking about an addition and denay the transformation "made") . This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature, God and man. (Correct: one nature, being divine and human) The divine nature was not changed (It was changed. He just say it and quoted John declaring such change. But pretend that it was not any change and makes John say the oposite that is saying)when the Word became flesh (John 1:1,14). Instead, the Word was joined with humanity (Col. 2:9) (Col 2:9 is saying the oposite. Paul is teaching that in Jesus it was not divinity joining a human body. That is an heressy that paul is batling against. Paul teaches that the body itself was divine. Jesus was a divine being in all of him. Jesus was all divine and all Jesus was divine). Jesus' divine nature was not altered (Paul and John teach that Christ "became". Both use the verb egeneto that we read concerning the water becoming wine. There is an alteration) . Also, Jesus is not merely a man who "had Got d within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God in flesh, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3) (All of that confirming the indivisible unity in Jesus. There is not possible to talk of divinity and humanity separately). Jesus' two natures (he just recognices that in Jesus there is an indivisible nature, not two distinct natures. But now is pretending the oposite) are not "mixed together," (Eutychianism) (any scriptural support? No) nor are they combined into a new God-man nature (Monophysitism) (any scriptural support? No). They are separate (He did demostrate that there is not separation at all. Now he is pretending the opposite) yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.
The following chart should help you see the two natures of Jesus "in action":

The following chart demostrate Jesus as God and Jesus as human. Never demostrate that those are two distinct natures; not mixed, not combined.


The Communicatio Idiomatum

A doctrine that is related to the Hypostatic Union is the communicatio idiomatum (Latin for "communication of properties"). It is the teaching that the attributes of both the divine and human natures (It have never been proved the existence of two different natures: divine and human) are ascribed to the one person of Jesus. This means that the man Jesus could lay claim to the glory He had with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), claim that He descended from heaven, (John 3:13), and also claim omnipresence, (Matt. 28:20) (Jesus was not omnipresent and Matt 28:20 is not saying that Jesus was omnipresent). All of these are divine qualities that are laid claim to by Jesus; therefore, the attributes of the divine properties were claimed by the person of Jesus.
One of the most common errors that non-Christian cults make is not understanding the two natures of Christ (nobody in the last 15 centuries have proved the existence of two different natures. that is the most common error of the Christians). For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses focus on Jesus' humanity and ignore His divinity. They repeatedly quote verses dealing with Jesus as a man and try and set them against scripture showing that Jesus is also divine. On the other hand, the Christian Scientists do the reverse. They focus on the scriptures showing Jesus' divinity to the extent of denying His true humanity (the HU is the mother of all heresies including the JW. By teaching the existence of two diferent natures it is to expect some Christians got confised between being divine or being human, when actually Jesus had only one nature = divine and human).
For a proper understanding of Jesus and, therefore, all other doctrines that relate to Him, His two natures (there is not two natures and it has never being prove such double existence) must be properly understood and defined. Jesus is one person with two natures (never proved). This is why He would grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52) yet know all things (John 21:17) (Jesus did not know all things in literal terms. There was a lot of things that he did not know). He is the Divine Word that became flesh (John 1:1,14) (YES. Jesus "became fesh", he did not add flesh but change into flesh).
The Bible is about Jesus (John 5:39) (WRONG. the Bible is about the Christ). The prophets prophesied about Him (Acts 10:43) (about Chrsit). The Father bore witness of Him (John 5:37; 8:18). The Holy Spirit bore witness of Him (John 15:26). The works Jesus did bore witness of Him (John 5:36; 10:25). The multitudes bore witness of Him (John 12:17). And, Jesus bore witness of Himself (John 14:6; 18:6).
Other verses to consider when examining His deity are John 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:6-8; and 2 Pet. 1:1.
1 Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Right now, there is a man in heaven on the throne of God. He is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). He is our Savior (Titus 2:13). He is our Lord (Rom. 10:9-10). He is Jesus.

THE HYPOSTATIC UNION WAS NOT DEMOSTRATED AT ALL.

 

[Zeleste]

I challange all of you to present any scriptural support to the Hypostatic Union.

 

[Keachian]

I challange all of you to present any scriptural support to the Hypostatic Union.

The problem is not the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, the problem is your dispensing of all theological terms and then building for yourself a new anthropology and then deriving from that your theology including your christology. Your anthropology does not appear in scripture and stating it does over and over again does not make it magically appear.

You say man is spirit and so is the same nature as God, then does man have three natures in your Anthropology? Spirit, Soul and Body?

 

[Hentenza]

I challange all of you to present any scriptural support to the Hypostatic Union.

Been there, done that.

 

[Zeleste]

The problem is not the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, the problem is your dispensing of all theological terms and then building for yourself a new anthropology and then deriving from that your theology including your christology. Your anthropology does not appear in scripture and stating it does over and over again does not make it magically appear.

You say man is spirit and so is the same nature as God, then does man have three natures in your Anthropology? Spirit, Soul and Body?

Man having the same nature of God has been already demostrated in "The nature of God, Jesus and men".

Most important. It is not about demostrating my christology being correct or wrong... it is about demostrating that the HU is correct. And all of you failed for 15 centuries. The first thing you have to demostrate is that the is two spirits: divine and human. This is the starting point.

I challange all of you to demostrate that there is two spirits: divine and human; witch is the starting point of the HU

 

[Zeleste]

Been there, done that.

LOL

 

[Alithis]

I was talking with my cousin last weekend and he asked me a question about who did I think Jesus was. Now my entire life I thought Jesus was God. The father son and holy spirit. I understand their separate. I do go to church read the bible not as much as I should but usually everyday. I go to bible study. Did I miss something, lol.

Now my cousin who has read the bible 3 times and more in the word than I am. But some reason that doesn't sound right. He said Jesus is less then God. I don't think I've ever heard a christian say Jesus is not God. Did I miss something big. Does the bible preach that? I mean I know Jesus pointed to the father all the time. I'm not interested in opinions if possible just what the word says. Don't tell me my cousin went off the end. I never heard Jesus was less then God. I wrote Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit and drew a circle around all 3 and wrote God. And I told him thats what I believe. He wrote Father=Holy Spirit drew a circle and called that God wrote Jesus outside and drew a box over everything and wrote Godhead. I was baffled. I believed he for a little bit but I then went back to my old thinking.

I think I he is wrong. He is like the only other young person in the family that is into God. I can't believe he said Jesus isn't God or maybe I'm wrong. Does the bible teach Jesus is less then God. I mean I know Jesus said he can't do nothing without the father but I thought God came down as JEsus. I believe in all 3 but as one God. He used like a dozen verse most were from John. But All I heard was Jesus saying he was separate from the father. And I already knew that. Or does that mean he is different not God.

I am not strong enough in the word to convince him that he is wrong. I can't believe that. Am I wrong? Jesus is not God could you please provide clear scripture that says Jesus is not God or Jesus saying he is not God or less then God. I went to Catholic school my entire life so maybe they rotted my brain, lol. I've always gone to a baptist church. Thanks

you said these words ..(in text ) and your words went out from you and they became text .. are the words some one else or are they an outward expression of you ?

they are you .. and we are made in the image of God and from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks .. god displayed the abundance of his heart to us .. he spoke and affectingly said .. "save them" - and his word became flesh . fully man and fully God .

now for years i wondered how they could be one and yet it is clearly written that the son will also be brought into subjection to the father - so i asked God .

and he simply showed me this

the speaker speaks from the heart .. the words are the outgoing expression of the speakers heart.. the words are the speaker . but the words do not speak themselves ..they are spoken out by the speaker -hence the words are the expression of the speaker while at the same time they are subject to the speaker

I and my father are one
i do not do anything of myself but what i see the father doing that I do

the word is spoken by the father while being the outer expression of the father

if you have seen me - you have seen the father
not my will ..but thine be done

the words do not choose what words to be .. the father chooses what to say .. Jesus is the word of God made flesh .

-----------------
now i get all that as clear as crystal because the holy Spirit revealed it to me
hope you can see it as clearly soon

 

[OzSpen]

yogo,

I do wish that you would pick up a sound, Bible-believing, book on systematic theology to find a listing of the biblical evidence for the deity of the Holy Spirit - to confirm that the Holy Spirit is God.

You don't seem to want to believe that the Holy Spirit is God. Take your example:

Also how come the Holy Spirit is never called God in any scripture?Look at John 10:30--"I and the father are one"

Yours is false teaching that "the Holy Spirit is never called God in any scripture". Don't you read the Book of Acts? This is what Acts 5:3-5 states:

3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it (ESV).

​

Who did Ananias lie to? The Holy Fpirit and that means that Ananias lied to God. That's Bible, but you don't want to believe it!

I obtained the following summary of the deity of the Holy Spirit from Norman Geisler 2003. Systematic Theology: God, Creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse, pp. 675-676.

The Holy Spirit is given the names of Deity
The Holy Spirit is referred to as "God" or "Lord" (Acts 5:3-4), "God's Spirit" (1 Cor. 3:16), "Lord" (1 Cor. 12:4-6), and "eternal Spirit" (Heb. 9:14).

The Holy Spirit possesses the attributes of Deity
The Holy Spirit has attributes of God such as life (Rom. 8:2), truth (John 16:13), love (Rom. 15:30), holiness (Eph. 4:30), eternality (Heb. 9:14), omnipresence (Ps. 139:7), and omniscience (1 Cor. 2:11).

The Holy Spirit performs acts of deity
The divine works of the Holy Spirit include the act of Creation (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30), the acts of redemption (Isa. 63:10-11; Eph. 4:30; 1 Cor. 12:13), the performance of miracles (Gal. 3:2-5; Heb. 2:4), and the bestowal of supernatural gifts (Acts 2:4; 1 Cor. 12:11).

The Holy Spirit is associated with God in prayers and benedictions
Jude 1;20 exhorts readers to "build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." The benediction of 2 Corinthians 13:14 contains all three members of the Godhead: "May the brace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God [the Father], and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (emphasis added). The baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 also contains the Holy Spirit, along with the other members of the Trinity, all under one "name" (essence).

Sincerely, Oz

@Ozspen Thank you for being kind and honest about the subject.

how can you deny these:

The Father is to be worshiped:
John 4:23, ASV, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers

Mark 10:18, DRC, And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

Notice Jesus never claims equlaity with God in Mark 10:18.

Also look at Matthew 24:36 and John 14:28
Matthew 24:36--“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

John 14:28--You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.(NASB)

These 2 scriptures totally contradict the Trinity doctrine.

Also how come the Holy Spirit is never called God in any scripture?Look at John 10:30--"I and the father are one"

How come it makes NO mention whatsoever of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Keachian]

Man having the same nature of God has been already demostrated in "The nature of God, Jesus and men".

Most important. It is not about demostrating my christology being correct or wrong... it is about demostrating that the HU is correct. And all of you failed for 15 centuries. The first thing you have to demostrate is that the is two spirits: divine and human. This is the starting point.

I challange all of you to demostrate that there is two spirits: divine and human; witch is the starting point of the HU

Does man have three natures?

 

[OzSpen]

Offcourse that all theologist and teacher will tell I am wrong. But the truth is that I have proven beyond any doubt that all of them are wrong. And prove how wrong they are is too easy since all what they argue is simple personal assertions without any documented evidence.
What exactly do you feel need additional arguamentation from my side.

So you are the one who is correct and all orthodox theologians are wrong?

What is a theologist?

Oz

 

[rcetc]

So you are the one who is correct and all orthodox theologians are wrong?

What is a theologist?

Oz

If you're looking for definitive evidence for the existence of the trinity, then I highly recommend you read "Made in the Image of God: Understanding the Nature of God and Mankind in a Changing World" by Reid A. Ashbaucher. A un-traditional biblical approach to prove that God is not only one but three in unity.

A study of 27 years and over 1,350 verses referenced; demonstrating that God is not only the creator, but exists as three persons sharing a single nature and how we as humans are made in the very likeness of God. A fascinating study for those that are truly interested in the subject.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for review.

As a reminder, this IS a Trinitarian forum! The site Statement of Faith is Trinitarian.
The site rules include:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.


Some clean up will be done.