Is Jesus Enough?

[thinbo]

Finished typing! here it is, for what it's worth, take it/leave it, it doesn't matter either way.

I've changed the names, in my dream they were 4 female friends of mine that I know and love dearly (I'm no stud, honestly). Anyway, to cut a long story short, they were all sat around a table, (they were talking about me!) I was sat behind the Martha one, I couldn't see her face, but I knew who she was, she said nothing all through the dream, didn't even move. The one directly opposite was my housemate(Mary1).

Anyway, I was on the outside looking in, I could talk to them, but I couldn't get eye contact, whenever I spoke to one of them, the other Mary's would just start spitting out phrases at her, (I know sounds like Final Quest, what can I say?, I ain't no Rick Joyner either) The phrases were pretty neutral ones like, "He likes you" "That's nice" "you think so" etc. but the effect was devastating because of the hatred behind them. I kept having to shift who I was talking to because the other two Mary's would get jealous, I could see the one I was speaking to being crushed by their words and it was heart breaking, so I would talk to one of the others and immediately, the one I turned from, would become even more hateful than them.

In the end I just gave up talking and wrapped my arms around Mary1, because she was the most hurt. (She was also the most aggressive)

Not sure what the moral is, but when I woke up this morning I felt so bad for ignoring the Martha one, she didn't seem to need me.

 

[thinbo]

The Moral?: Don't eat cheese (I didn't honestly)

 

[Svt4Him]

Svt

Great - I respect your point of view, but I disagree. Jesus made it perfectly clear that we don't need men to rule over us and Paul also added that we don't need that any man teaches us, but God.

The Eph 4.11 gifts are just that - gifts, not offices or positions or titles. It's used to build His Church, not to lord over people - so forgive me once again, it does sound a little sacrilegious. For Jesus to be the only answer is not pride, but Life, for even the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve. The least will be the greatest. I really DON'T need the wisdom of men, so the Word teaches, but I love the Body of Christ when it expresses Him, and having fellowship with brothers and sisters is like being with family.

Well, let's see...where does it say they are gifts? Careful, you are mixing church doctrine with the Bible.


11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

And finally: Did the Lord not say He will convict the world of sin? Yes He did, and He never once solicited our help on the matter. The Lord said this is how they will know you are my disciples: When you have love one for another – I must therefore reject your sin analogy.

Well, you may, but it's Biblical. So here it is:

John 3:
18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Corinthians 4

1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Now if you are saying God doesn't need men, then please explain this:

Romans 10
14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

"How beautiful are the feet of those whopreach the gospel of peace,

Who bring glad tidings of good things!"


PS. It wasn't an analogy.

 

[thinbo]

Not sure what this is about: God needs men alright, he needs dead men, for whom to live is Christ, to die is gain.

Jesus is the rock the foundation, upon which the house is built, If the foundation is not secure, the whole house becomes unstable, to build on any foundation other than Jesus is to build on unstable ground.

Again, Jesus appoints His Apostles and Prophets, men appoint theirs. They look for worldly commendation, for degrees and diplomas. He looks for the heart. They jostle for position, for success. His look only to Him, He leads they follow. The Apotles of men make ropes of logic that lead only to themselves, once they have brought you to safety they use the very same ropes to bind you.

The Apostles and Prophets of Jesus consider themselves nothing, they point to Him alone. Not that these categories are fixed, there is much overlap, but time and a hard heart bring destruction to many.

We have men to lead us, but only one master, It was not Apollos or Paul that was crucifed for me.

 

[onionring]

I would like to weigh into this discussion. Heads up!

The article's question was "Is Jesus enough?". Enough for what? Salvation? To be a Christian? For a fulfilling life?

Problem number one. Vague question.

And I see everyone reading into what they want. I realize the author (aka Chip "On-my-shoulder" Wrong-Again [Brogden]) implies several answers to several questions. Thereby keeping the article vague and allowing for Christians to "take the good and leave the bad". That's the problem I have with this article. The "bad". It seems everyone has overlooked statements made by Chip, and instead of discussing the article they are discussing specific things the "pulled" (like teeth) from it.

The article reads like a shotgun. But most of the focus is on a personal relationship with God (Jesus) vs.. actions of Christians (Church). This normally isn't a problem...aside from the fact that Chip implying over and over that specific "health" Christian actions "are saying that Jesus is not enough". He implied this by using generalizing tags like: "most" and "all" Christians...then follow it up with a health Christian mission or action ...and complete his example by implying they love it "more than Jesus".

The entire article is based on generalizations and imply thoughts. It generalizes that Christians love actions more than (a personal relationship with) Jesus. I thought Christians believed that "you cannot be a "Christian" unless God (Jesus) comes first". Yet the entire concept of this article screams to the opposite by implying that the people that - think this way and do this - are in fact "Christians".

Which finally leads to only one final implied conclusion. Christians in Christian-actions are hypocrites. For in action they love works more than Christ.

What? You didn't read it that way?
Is that perhaps because your a Christian? That's wonderful....but how does the non-Christian read it?

Probably much the say way the Christian did,...only they "take the bad and leave the good". That's right. It only further supports thoughts that Christians are hypocrites.

And no one (other than perhaps Svt4Him; a Canuck, none the less!) seem to read this article objectively.

My opinion: This was exceptionally, poorly written article (from the Christian stand-point). This was a reaffirming article (from my atheist viewpoint).

 

[thinbo]

onionring you've read it from your own perspective, which is all any of us can do, there is no objective way to interpret any piece of writing, unless of course you are the author, svt, is every bit as subjective as you or i, he made some good points.

I can only presume you read this article as a critque on the state of Christianity, perhaps svt does too. No-one else here reads it as this, they read it as a personal reflection, it's more a state of the union speech, than a manifesto.

 

[thinbo]

make what you will of it, it's only housekeeping

 

[craig_on_fire]

I must admit I have very often been more bothered about singing the "best tunes" or hearing what my favourite preacher has to say.. then actually focus on The Lord Himself and Praise Him for His grace, and mercy and awesome power that transcends any normal understanding..

I DO remember what it was like when He first called me.. and I remember how I felt...
That awesome feeling! Come Lord Jesus.. forgive me ! You are more than enough for me!!

 

[thinbo]

(puts on his atheist glasses for a min, to check the view) onionring this thread might actually make some sense to you, if you replace the word 'Jesus' with the word 'love'

 

[educk]

Well, let's see...where does it say they are gifts? Careful, you are mixing church doctrine with the Bible.

Where does it say they are offices? And what is these days peddled as the 'five-fold' ministry is actually erroneous. Pastor-teacher is one in the Greek. Throughout the New Testament the word office is not found ANYWHERE in the Greek. However, the beloved King James had some terms translated in that way, especially the bit in Heb 11 about lording over people and the whole office deal. You have to understand, he was a King and had a kingdom to protect and thus the English Bible is laced with such terms which are not part of the Greek language.

Here is a great article for you on the Scriptural aspects of this:
The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy

I'll stick with Jesus on this one:
But Jesus called them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions use their authority over them. It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Those are gifts for building the Body of Christ- nothing more. It’s like being a plumber or a carpenter. It simply describes what we do, it does not in itself elevate us to some position. It’s our job description, and I don't see Jesus pursuing titles and offices - actually quite the opposite.

John 3:18

It comes down to this. Jesus is the Light spoken of in that scripture. It still contains not command to shove the light down people's throats. How we live our lives is a much greater testimony than of the light. Instead Jesus said that His Spirit will convict the world of sin and righteousness.

2 Corinthians 4

If you read a couple of Chapters above this quotation, you will see that it's exactly about not shoving the Letter down people's throats, about the fact that we have a ministry of reconciliation, that is, telling the world that we can come near the Father and that He has bestowed grace on us in our sinful state and that we can now live free in Him. It's the ministry of telling people that there in His presence the veil is removed, and we can behold Him, just as we are in our sinful nature without shame and that in that grace, we are transformed from glory to glory in the image of the Son. We have no other ministry than the ministry of reconciliation.

Rom 10.14

Our lives preaches each day – lound and clear. Preaching in context is nothing more than telling the story of the Creator. I am not against people telling the story of our Lord, but God does not needs a preacher to tell it. I was reconciled by a divine act of God audibly knocking on my door three times, without a single soul or preacher in sight. So, yes, I believe the Gospel can get to us without the intervention of people or preachers. And if you really want to split hairs about this Scripture then you will notice that it’s addressed to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. Also, the preached word spoken off in that chapter is the Rhema word, not the Logos word – a living word in season to a given people. Therefore, taking the Letter out of context and using it to inflict Jesus on them is not what Paul had in mind in this passage. God do use people, inspite of people.

God is self-sufficient. He does not have a single NEED in Himself. He does not NEED man and He did not create man because He was lonely and NEEDED fellowship. He simply is Love and wanted to invite us into the Relationship that defines all other relationships. That is between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. We have the glorious privilege of telling His story to the world without condemnation and help them to get into the Relationship.

Again, thanks for you thoughts and peace!

 

[educk]

I would like to weigh into this discussion. Heads up!

Wow Matt - I think you read a different article.

 

[flyfishing]

The Moral?: Don't eat cheese (I didn't honestly)

Funny story..

 

[educk]

Funny story..

ROFLOL

 

[Svt4Him]

Where does it say they are offices? And what is these days peddled as the 'five-fold' ministry is actually erroneous. Pastor-teacher is one in the Greek. Throughout the New Testament the word office is not found ANYWHERE in the Greek. However, the beloved King James had some terms translated in that way, especially the bit in Heb 11 about lording over people and the whole office deal. You have to understand, he was a King and had a kingdom to protect and thus the English Bible is laced with such terms which are not part of the Greek language.

Call it the Mickey Mouse club, but don't miss the forest for all the trees. They are not called gifts, and I didn't call them offices.

I'll stick with Jesus on this one:
But Jesus called them and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in high positions use their authority over them. It must not be this way among you! Instead whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Those are gifts for building the Body of Christ- nothing more. It’s like being a plumber or a carpenter. It simply describes what we do, it does not in itself elevate us to some position. It’s our job description, and I don't see Jesus pursuing titles and offices - actually quite the opposite.

I think I'd have to call this a red herring, as it really has nothing to do with anything. Timothy: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

It comes down to this. Jesus is the Light spoken of in that scripture. It still contains not command to shove the light down people's throats. How we live our lives is a much greater testimony than of the light. Instead Jesus said that His Spirit will convict the world of sin and righteousness.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I Tim 4:11 These things command and teach.

If you read a couple of Chapters above this quotation, you will see that it's exactly about not shoving the Letter down people's throats, about the fact that we have a ministry of reconciliation, that is, telling the world that we can come near the Father and that He has bestowed grace on us in our sinful state and that we can now live free in Him. It's the ministry of telling people that there in His presence the veil is removed, and we can behold Him, just as we are in our sinful nature without shame and that in that grace, we are transformed from glory to glory in the image of the Son. We have no other ministry than the ministry of reconciliation.

Well, let's see what Jesus said was the message of the Kingdom:

Math 4:17 first mention of Jesus preaching- From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Our lives preaches each day – lound and clear. Preaching in context is nothing more than telling the story of the Creator. I am not against people telling the story of our Lord, but God does not needs a preacher to tell it. I was reconciled by a divine act of God audibly knocking on my door three times, without a single soul or preacher in sight. So, yes, I believe the Gospel can get to us without the intervention of people or preachers. And if you really want to split hairs about this Scripture then you will notice that it’s addressed to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. Also, the preached word spoken off in that chapter is the Rhema word, not the Logos word – a living word in season to a given people. Therefore, taking the Letter out of context and using it to inflict Jesus on them is not what Paul had in mind in this passage. God do use people, inspite of people.

Who's splitting hairs? And rhema is spoken, I agree. Again, red herring? I don't really understand what you are trying to convey. God doesn't need a preacher? Was He being redundant again?

God is self-sufficient. He does not have a single NEED in Himself. He does not NEED man and He did not create man because He was lonely and NEEDED fellowship. He simply is Love and wanted to invite us into the Relationship that defines all other relationships. That is between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. We have the glorious privilege of telling His story to the world without condemnation and help them to get into the Relationship.

Again, thanks for you thoughts and peace!

God has, in His wisdom, chosen to work with men. So because of it, now He does need men. For instance, God will do nothing without first revealing it to His prophet. OT I know, but if God chose that, then did He first need to reveal it to His prophet?

And condemnation? The world is already condemned. But here is an issue. You seem to want to use the Bible on occasion, and ignore it on others. What's up with that? There is condemnation, John is clear on that.

 

[educk]

They are not called gifts, and I didn't call them offices.

If they are not gifts and you did not call them offices, then what WOULD you call them.

As for the rest, I'll leave it at just your interpretation of the Bible, as you would mine. You are picking selective verses to build a case which does not exist.

Peace brother!

 

[Svt4Him]

If they are not gifts and you did not call them offices, then what WOULD you call them.

As for the rest, I'll leave it at just your interpretation of the Bible, as you would mine. You are picking selective verses to build a case which does not exist.

Peace brother!

They are people God gives to help the body come into unity of the faith.

As for the case, so be it. Sometimes it's best to stop debating, lest offenses be taken.

So peace to you as well.

 

[educk]

They are people God gives to help the body come into unity of the faith.

Svt4Him, so then we really are saying the same thing. Dammit, the Internet is an unforgiving medium to talk in. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Jim B]

Well, thanks to Svt4 Him, I have changed my answer to this question. Originally I said, “Yes, Jesus is enough,” but the more I think about it the more I realized that that is not the way God created us. In the beginning, God was enough for Adam but God did not think so. He said, “"It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him,” and he created Eve. Apparently, God did not create Adam so that He would be sufficient for his every need. The fact is, “no man lives to himself and no man dies to himself.” We need each other and that’s the way God made us.

 

[educk]

Well, thanks to Svt4 Him, I have changed my answer to this question. Originally I said, “Yes, Jesus is enough,” but the more I think about it the more I realized that that is not the way God created us. In the beginning, God was enough for Adam but God did not think so. He said, “"It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him,” and he created Eve. Apparently, God did not create Adam so that He would be sufficient for his every need. The fact is, “no man lives to himself and no man dies to himself.” We need each other and that’s the way God made us.

I think there is a difference between having fellowship with brother and sisters, not being alone and being part of the Body out of a healthy position, than alternative. I for one am not advocating a man is “an island on his own.”

The question, Is Jesus Enough?, is not about relationship, but about "Seek first the Kingdom". It's about having our priorities in the right order. When we rush to the things of God before rushing to Him, then Jesus is not enough. So I think your comment is a little out of context, but right none the less, as we have no choice not being part of each other in the Body of Christ. But we can choose what our priorities will be. Using your Adam/Eve analogy, I could have thrown this verse at you:

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.​

Wow, you have to hate Eve! What was Luke thinking? But I will not do that, as it would be merely using the same trickery. It cleverly avoids the question. It's misdirection, thus the question is still:

Is Jesus Enough?

 

[Jim B]

I think there is a difference between having fellowship with brother and sisters, not being alone and being part of the Body out of a healthy position, than alternative. I for one am not advocating a man is “an island on his own.”

The question, Is Jesus Enough?, is not about relationship, but about "Seek first the Kingdom". It's about having our priorities in the right order. When we rush to the things of God before rushing to Him, then Jesus is not enough. So I think your comment is a little out of context, but right none the less, as we have no choice not being part of each other in the Body of Christ. But we can choose what our priorities will be. Using your Adam/Eve analogy, I could have thrown this verse at you:

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.​

Wow, you have to hate Eve! What was Luke thinking? But I will not do that, as it would be merely using the same trickery. It cleverly avoids the question. It's misdirection, thus the question is still:

Is Jesus Enough?

This is a loaded question that is answered by you talking apples and me talking oranges. It all depends on how you interpret the question. Since it is an unbiblical question, it seems to require a subjective answer, asking for an opinion. Sort of the question that would be asked on an college English essay test. From your viewpoint you have a point and I feel that from mine I do too. And that’s where it should probably end. Trying to get me to buy into your interpretation of the question is asking me to see things through your eyes (filters) and I am not willing to do that.

It's really a silly question, when you think about it.

\o/