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Is Jesus 100% MAN and 100% GOD?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Nov 11, 2001.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Friends,

    Most Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man or true God and true man. Some even believe that Jesus is the only true God. Still others believe that Jesus is both the Father and the son.

    Jesus says he is a man (John 8:40) and the Father is the only true God (John 17:3).

    Inspite of this, however, people still say that Jesus is God. Thus, if Jesus is God, is he 100% man and 100% God at the SAME time?

    Please elaborate on your answer.

    Ed
     
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  2. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
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    Obviously, I answered 100% both. :)

    And to clarify:

    I believe this, and also beleive that The Father and the Holy Spirit are also the only true God.

    This I do not believe. There is no biblical support for this.

    Niether statement is in dispute, on this forum, to my knowledge.

    Interesting you choose to say "in spite of". That would suggst that those who beleive Jesus is God, do not beleive the above statements you made. I do acep them. It in's "in spite of" those statements. I accept all three as true: Jesus is the Son, The Father is God. Jesus is God.

    Yes!
     
  3. Schrack

    Schrack Guest

    +0
    "Inspite of this, however, people still say that Jesus is God."

    Hey Ed, people only say because the Bible does:

    "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righeousness is the scepter of thy kingdom." Heb. 1:8

    Now Jeremiah quoted God as saying "Cursed be the man who puts his trust in man," yet the Psalmist said "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they who put their trust in him.

    I guess that's why Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

    Now I realize that there will always be some people who will never quite understand how this is all possible, but for those who exercise their faith, they believe that with God nothing is impossible.

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  4. Flower

    Flower Guest

    +0
    I see Christ as being man and God,.....or better said,..God in the flesh. He was man (flesh), but He was also God. Having the full measure of the Spirit He was able to live by the spirit and not succumb to the flesh. That is the only way, being without sin, He was able to be the lamb, the perfect sacrifice, for our sins.

    He was not half man, half God. He was not all man, and He was not all God.

    I have heard this explained in comparison to the ark of the covenant. That wood box, representing the flesh,....was covered with pure gold, representing the Spirit (God). Did the wood become the gold? NO. Did they gold mesh with the wood? NO. Well, something like that. Food for thought. :)
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Schrackthebaptist,

    You wrote:
    Who is the "him" whom you are referring to? You seem to project the impression that you have put your trust in "him." Are you referring to: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Thomas, God or Jesus?

    I don't believe you are referring to God because if you do, then I would say that you HAVEN'T put your trust in Him. God commands that people LISTEN to His son (Matt. 17:5). Obviously God is referring to Jesus. And I know you have NOT been listening to Jesus. You have been listening to FALSE teachers who teach you FALSE teachings about Jesus.

    I don't believe you are referring to Jesus either because if you do, then I would say that you HAVEN'T put your trust in him either. Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3,1). Yet you INSIST that Jesus is God.

    Why DON'T you TRUST Jesus Schrack yet write that "Blessed are those who put their trust in him?" Aren't you being HYPOCRITAL or what?

    Ed
     
  6. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Flower,

    You wrote:
    Whoever you heard this story from is a FALSE teacher because apostle Paul "...speaks NOT in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor. 2:13).

    God says MAN is FLESH (Gen. 6:3). Jesus says GOD is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Jesus says a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and BONES as he has (Luke 24:39).

    Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). The word "ONLY" means "no one else" is God besides the FATHER.

    God says there is "no God beside Him" and "there is none like him" (Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 46:9). God also says that "before Him there was NO God formed, NEITHER shall there be AFTER Him" (Isaiah 43:10).

    The Bible IDENTIFIES the Father ONLY as the God who created us all (Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Malachi 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6; John 17:3).

    While it is true that nothing is impossible with God, does God want to be a MAN? No! God does NOT want to be a man and will NOT break His word regarding this issue (Num. 23:19).

    Does God allow a MAN to be God? No! (Ezekiel 28:2).

    Ed
     
  7. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    ZoneChaos,

    You wrote:
    I wish I could get into your head and see what you see in John 8:40 and John 17:3. In John 8:40, Jesus says he is a MAN. In John 17:3,1 Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

    You say you believe what these verses are saying yet you INSIST that Jesus, the SON is God. Isn't this weird?

    God says there is NO God beside Him (Isaiah 44::cool: . God says there is none like him (Isaiah 46:9). God says there was NO God before him NOR there will be any God AFTER Him (Isaiah 43:10).

    The Bible IDENTIFIES the Father ONLY as the ONLY ONE God (Isaiah 63:16; Isaih 64:8; Malachi 2:10; 1 Cor. 8:6).

    Yet, inspite of these overwhelming evidence, professing Christians who are professing Bible-believers and claim to have accepted Jesus as their Lord INSIST on believing the LIE that FALSE teachers have perpetuated for centuries now - Jesus (the SON) is God!

    Tell me Zone, how can one fill an empty 1-gallon jar with 100% water and 100% oil at the same time?

    Ed
     
  8. Flower

    Flower Guest

    +0
    1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


    There is says it just as plain as day.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.14. And the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
    &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
    MATTHEW 1:23 Christ is called “Immanuel” - “God with us.”

    I TIMOTHY 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.”

    COLOSSIANS 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead (divinity) in bodily form.”

    ISAIAH 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”

    I CORINTHIANS 15:47 “The Second Man is the Lord from heaven.”

    JOHN 20:26-29 Thomas called Christ “My Lord and My God.” (Christ did not correct him.)

    JOHN 10:30-33 (Christ speaking) “'I and my Father are one....’ The Jews answered Him, saying, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."

    Funny, but the very reason the Jews crucified him was for claiming to be God, as it states in this last verse. Yet today you deny this. Hummmm then they would not have cruicified him for blasphemy.
     
  9. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    o your and your church maybe, but not my me and mine.

    And the concept of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all being this ONe God that these verses mention do not contradict those verses. There is truly only one God.

    Ok.. lets look at these verses...

    Isaiah 63:16 "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting."

    I am failoing to see the "Father only as the Only one God" here.. can you point it out? I see that God is our Father : "Doubtless thou [Jehovah] art our father..."

    Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."

    Same as 63:16.. I do not see The father being depicted as the Only one who is God.

    Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?"

    Again.. one Father, and one God.. but not the one father being the only one who is God.

    I Corinthians 8:6 "But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him."

    One Gid.. no dispute there. That one God is the Father. No dispute there... Again I fail to see where you are getting "only the father is the only true God". I do not see that said in any of these verses... What verses does say this? can you show me? Maybe this belief of yours is false?

    This is a very crude and inadequate analogy.. however... for the sake of your aegument.. I wil look at it.. but first.. let me ask you, as Trinity FGod is both spuernatural and natural... (the beleif that Jesus is both man and God), then, in your analogy is either water or oil supernatural?

    Think about your analogy.. you are comparing very simple physical substances to a God that has no limits or boundaries in the physical world... your analogy is pointless to say the least.

    A beter one would be a 3 color projector... Red Green Blue.. all sperate, and yet they create one white light. Is the light Red? Yes. Is the light Blue? Yes. Is the Light Green yes.. for it can't be whote without one of thses, and yet it is also white.
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    just one verse you have yet to answer ed...Col 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..."
     
  11. Schrack

    Schrack Guest

    +0
    Hey Ed,

    I seem to remember we've gone the rounds on this discussion quite some time ago, haven't we? I see nothing has changed.

    In any event, the answer to your question lies in the text itself: blessed are all they who put their trust in the Son. This explains why he is called both the Son of God and the Son of man, because God came into the world as a man, and his name was Jesus Christ. The Word, who was God, became flesh. Angels worshipped him, as did men, like Thomas, who said unto him "My Lord and my God." To deny who this man Jesus was, therefore, is to deny him altogether. The Bible says he is God; Ed says he was not. Who am I to believe? Certainly not you.

    SchracktheBaptist
     
  12. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    Where does the bible reads Jesus is God?

    No where!
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
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    Where does it read Jesus is not God?

    You assume that Jesus is not God becas the Bible doe snot have the exact words "Jesus is God".. but this acceptacne does not mesh with the many verses that give evidence to the contrary.
     
  14. Archieve

    Archieve Guest

    +0
    ZoneChaos, the bible makes it clear as to who Jesus is. It lets you know that Jesus is the Son of God

    Common sense would let anyone know that if you are the son of someone that you aren't that person.

    I am my mother's daughter, I am not my mother.
     
  15. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +23
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    Married
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    You need to study the greek more... Anytime Jesus is referred to the Son of God.. the "God" in that statement is the Greek word "Theos". This word is defined as the Trinity Godhead.

    In that.. the Son.. a member of the trinity can be the son of the Father, a member of the trinity..and yet both can be the trinity.

    A good analogy is this: A household. Mother, Father, and Daughter. All three are the household. As you are begotten of our MOther, you are also begotten of the Household. No you ar enot your mother, as Jesus is not his Father, but you are begotten of the Household, as Jesus is begotten of God.
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Flower,

    Open your eyes Flower. Does the verse say they are one "God?" The verse ends at the word "one." You are seeing something that is NOT in the verse. The verse says there are three that bear record. And they are one "in agreement" - not "God."

    Anyway, this verse is spurious if you know what that means. This verse is found only in the King James Version and is NOT found in any original manuscript BEFORE the 16th century.

    John 1:1 is NOT a description of Jesus. It is John's figurative way of describing God's EXPRESSED idea, plan or promise. 1 Peter 1:20 tells us that Jesus was foreordained (or appointed in advance) before the foundations of the world. Specificlly, John was describing God's promises recorded in Gen. 3:15; Gen. 17:7; Deut. 18:18 and Isaiah 7:14.

    The phrase "and the WORD was God" is John's figurative way of describing the power or CERTAINTY of the fulfillment of God's promises.

    John 1:2-5 definitely refer to Jesus but John 1:14 refers to the FULFILLMENT of God's promise regarding the birth of Jesus as promised in Isaiah 7:14.

    The name describes Jesus' mission of "bringing people back to God." One who ABIDES in the doctrines of Christ HAS God (2 John 9).

    This means that God was made evident through the miracles, wonders and signs which He did through Chriust (Acts 2:22).

    The KJV is the only Bible where the word "Godhead" appears. Other versions of the Bible renders it as "divine nature" which does NOT mean "God." It only defines the righteousness and holiness of Christ who was sanctified or purified by God (John 10:36).

    This is a MIS-TRANSLATION but you won't believe it. So let's go to Scriptures and ask ourselves whether we should believe this or not.

    Matthew 17:5 commands us to LISTEN to Jesus. Jesus says he who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:1:cool: .

    Jesus commands everyone NOT to call anyone on earth Father because we have one Father who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).

    Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40).

    Jesus says the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). This EXCLUDES Jesus as God.

    The verse says MAN, not God. Open your eyes please.

    Let me ask you a question that requires only common sense for an answer. Let's say jaywalking is prohibited by law and you jaywalk. But a policeman who saw you did not issue you a summons. In fact, he even smiled at you. Does that mean the law on jaaywalking is revoked at that instant?

    Thomas was simply mistaken in supposing that Jesus is God.

    Only the son (meaning Jesus) can reveal who the Father is (Luke 10:22) and he has revealed that the Father is the only true God (John 17:3).

    Jesus is the SAVIOR - not Thomas. Listen to Jesus and believe him, NOT Thomas.

    The Pharisees knew that Jesus is a MAN (see verse). They THOUGHT he was CLAIMING equality with God (meaning of blasphemy) when he said God is his Father (John 10:36).

    The Pharisees were MISTAKEN in thinking that Jesus, being a MAN, was claiming to be God. Their charge of blasphemy is correct but their BASIS for charging him with blasphemy is WRONG. As you can read in John 10:36, Jesus NEVER claimed he was God. He only said "I am the son of God."

    And in this way, you are like a Pharisee for thinking that Jesus is God because he says God is his Father.

    Ed
     
  17. Flower

    Flower Guest

    +0
    It pretty clearly says in verse 14 the WORD became FLESH.

    And 1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the HolyGhost: and these three are one.

    It says very clearly without any trouble my understanding, THESE THREE ARE ONE.

    I don't know what else it would take to understsand except the Spirit's guidance. Obviously you have hardened your heart and do not wish to see these things.

    I think lots of scholars from years past have seen this truth....lots continue to do so. If you don't then well, that is between you and your God that shares his worship and praise with another man, or creation, or another god. However you wish to explain it. I don't think anyone could pay the penalty of my sins except God Himself. In the bible it says there will be those that preach another Jesus. To me in the case of the denial of his deity, this is one of those times.

    It is so simple for those of the Spirit. This is why Jesus often spoke these words. Those that have ears let them hear. Well, everyone has ears huh? But they not all hear. All have eyes,..but do not see. Only through the guidance of the Spirit will these things be revealed unto you.

    If you are Christian, then you should read the prophecy of God becoming flesh....the name Immanuel. Only God can forgive sins, and is to be worshiped. Yet it is ok for us to worship Jesus "because He is one with God". Well, I think the seeds have been sown. It is up to God if he will reveal truth or keep it hidden.
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
    Flower,

    Do you see JESUS in this verse? The WORD (God's SPOKEN or EXPRESSED idea, plan or promise) that BECAME flesh - NOT God who SPOKE the WORD.

    Yes Flower, I agree that it's very clear that these three are one. But WHAT one are they? You say they are ONE "God." I say they are ONE "in agreement." And you tell me you are right and I am wrong. What is your basis? Your basis is what the FALSE teachers taught you.

    My basis is John 8:40 and John 17:3 where Jesus says he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

    Obviously you have HARDENED your heart Flower. You don't even recognize the voice of Jesus anymore.

    1 Cor. 11:3-4 tells us that in latter days, FALSE teachers will preach ANOTHER Jesus whom the apostles DID NOT preach.

    Apostle Paul PREACHED that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). If you can't see his Flower, you are BLIND.

    Apostle Paul PREACHED that the FATHER is the ONLY God of Christians (1 Cor. 8:6).

    Apostles Paul and Peter PREACHED that Jesus HAS a God AND Father (Co. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3).

    FALSE teachers PREACH that Jesus is God and God is composed of three persons, the Father plus the Son plus the Holy Spirit. The apostles PREACHED only ONE God in ONLY ONE person, the FATHER.

    Whose heart is hardened Flower?

    Look who's talking!

    Flower, a Christian is one who BELIEVES Jesus and ABIDES in his words (Acts 11:26; John 8:31). If you DON'T believe what Jesus says, you are NOT a Christian even if you THINK you are.

    God GAVE Jesus the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:10; Acts 5:31). God COMMANDED angels to worship Jesus (Heb. 1:6) and GAVE Jesus a name that at his name all knees should bow to the GLORY of God the Father (Phil. 2:9-11).

    Did God COMMAND angels to worship Jesus because Jesus is God? NO! Does God COMMAND men to bow at the name of Jedsus because Jesus is God? NO!

    The TRUTH remains that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Malachi 2:10).

    Apparently, Jesus did NOT choose to reveal to you WHO the Father is (Luke 10:22).

    Ed
     
  19. Flower

    Flower Guest

    +0
    Ed, I see lots of people have tried to tell you,...but it is impossible for man to persuade another. You will have to listen to the Spirit....that is where one gets truth. Not from an intelligence of reading the word.

    John 1:1-14, if you will read that, is very clear on who the Word is. You just do not want to see it. Maybe it is you that have been taught this or do not wish to buck the system. Being close minded and not wishing to read the scritpures is not going to make the problem go away. Aparently this is nagging at you or it would not be a debated subject on the board.

    Those that have been revealed the Word, know the mystery of Christ.

    Ephesians 3:3
    How that by revelation he made know unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in a few words,
    4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.)
    5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


    1 Cor. 2:7
    But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden widsom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
    8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they know it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Do you know why Jesus was crucified. What was the charge against him? Do you know?
     
  20. PrinceJeff

    PrinceJeff Well-Known Member

    +0
    I say give up on Ed he won't ever get it. We have given him and Archieve truth so many times, but they refuse it. Oh well.
     
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