Is it wrong...

[ANM29]

The forgiveness of God is not something to take for granted. He is blessed when we do the right thing and honour Him and our own bodies.

Sorry, I promised not to debate.

It is amazing though how you can say something and somebody interpret it as something else.

Anyway, no debate for me. Sorry Tiwigi.

 

[imperfectchristian]

You're welcome Twiggy

To not beat themselves up and condemn themselves for these things. And to certainly not let others do that to you either! The greatest harm that is done to people is when they have given up hope that they will not change, that it is impossible. So it is counter productive to tell people that their natural desires that God gave them is sin. You can't pray natural desires away, you can't anointed them with oil and dance around them and think the Holy Spirit is going to take what God gave them out of them.

My answer to every born again christian who is struggling with sin is to accept who God made them. To get rid of the old and take hold of the new. One of the main reasons why christians struggle with sin is because they're so sin conscious. They're so focused on their sin that they neglect who they have become in Christ. It's the ole "I'm just an sinner saved by grace", NO YOU ARE NOT! You are the righteousness of God in Christ! you keep thinking and believing you're a sinner then that is exactly what you will do.

There's lots of ways I could counsel them.

For the record Neph...I never said that sexual desire was bad or not given from God, but that we have an incredible aptitude for misusing it and abusing it.

I really like the compassion you show in this post, but I am not sure if it offers any real solution for the person struggling...comfort yes...solution...I am not seeing it atm. Could you touch on that?

 

[bithiah2]

Please see no. 1 and 2 in post #3 for the answer to this question.

there is some very interesting discussion about this on this website:

www.p4cm.com

i know people who attend there.

 

[nephilimiyr]

AMEN NEPH!...

Thanks ANM29!

Do you know what else I would tell them?

To get out of the world system. That's right, and do you know what part of the world system I am talking about? R E L I G I O N

The world system is based on religion. There are principals that the world is run on and they are, if you're good and you obey you will be rewared and if you're bad or disobedient you will be punished or at least not get any reward. However, God's kingdom principal doesn't run on that principal. God is not Santa Clause making a list and checking it twice to see who all have been naughty or nice. God's Kingdom principal is based on who you are! It's not based on performance at all or in anyway shape or form on the religious world system! oh I feel like preachin right now!

Why do people doubt who they are in Christ? Do they not know? How can they read in the Bible that God has made us sons and daughters of him through adoption and yet insist of sleeping in the pig pen? Religion that's what! And the enemy takes advantage of that everytime. He tells you, see, you just sinned, you can't be a son of God and sin, God must not have changed you at all because if He did you wouldn't have done what you did just now.......

 

[Floatingaxe]

I gave an example of a couple in the military so it would not really be an option for them to quit.

My question in this position would be though, how could I lean on God for something that part of me desires virtually all of the time and all of me desires when things get really bad and that I have no willingness to let go of?

If it is something one desires 'virtually all of the time' then I suspect God just may be bringing this separation to break that off.

Something to consider...on average the endorphins released during sex are 7 times stronger than heroin.

Somebody needs a dose of reality. Life is busy, get on with it, for Jesus' sake.

All that aside...we are dealing with someone who is failing, not potentially. To lay it on thick like that I would think would drive the nail in the coffin and turn discouragment into despair and possibly hoplessness.

Not when you have the assurance that Jesus Christ walks with you through these times. No one is laying it on thick.

Besides, I am sure a right-thinking couple would have discussed the possibility of separation in the course of their relationship, and come to the conclusion as believers that they would delve into serving God, and their given ministries in order to cope with the missing.

 

[nephilimiyr]

For the record Neph...I never said that sexual desire was bad or not given from God, but that we have an incredible aptitude for misusing it and abusing it.

Which was basically what I was saying yet you were basically telling me I was wrong. But it is forgotten.

 

[ANM29]

Thanks ANM29!

Do you know what else I would tell them?

To get out of the world system. That's right, and do you know what part of the world system I am talking about? R E L I G I O N

The world system is based on religion. There are principals that the world is run on and they are, if you're good and you obey you will be rewared and if you're bad or disobedient you will be punished or at least not get any reward. However, God's kingdom principal doesn't run on that principal. God is not Santa Clause making a list and checking it twice to see who all have been naughty or nice. God's Kingdom principal is based on who you are! It's not based on performance at all or in anyway shape or form on the religious world system! oh I feel like preachin right now!

Why do people doubt who they are in Christ? Do they not know? How can they read in the Bible that God has made us sons and daughters of him through adoption and yet insist of sleeping in the pig pen? Religion that's what! And the enemy takes advantage of that everytime. He tells you, see, you just sinned, you ca;'t be a son of God and sin, God must not have changed you at all because if He did you wouldn't have done what you did just now.......

And you are preaching, go head...
I would tell them the same thing, get out of the SYSTEMS OF MAN. That is the hardest thing for many Christians to do.

I would also tell them that they have no shame and guilt in Christ. I use to feel so guilty when I would slip here and there, but God showed me something powerful that lifted the shame and guilt away.......GRACE.......I know how much he loves me, I know how much I am forgiven, and I know how much I am his, and how in spite of ME, he still loves me, uses me through it all. Amazing..and he is not done with me YET...hallelujer!!

 

[imperfectchristian]

Bottom line---

Matthew 6:33
Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.

I am not familar with that translation...the KJV says seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be provided to you speaking of basic neccesities like food, water and raiment.

So I take it that would be your whole counsel to someone who is struggling? Basically to seek Him, live holy and that He will work it all out?

Is there anything you would add? (Keep in mind this person is in the place of failure)

 

[nephilimiyr]

And you are preaching, go head...
I would tell them the same thing, get out of the SYSTEMS OF MAN. That is the hardest thing for many Christians to do.

What makes it so hard for people is that we have been conditioned by the world that these are the only principals one can live by. We have been conditioned in this way since the day we were born, in school, and even in the church, LOL, especially in the church!

I would also tell them that they have no shame and guilt in Christ. I use to feel so guilty when I would slip here and there, but God showed me something powerful that lifted the shame and guilt away.......GRACE.......I know how much he loves me, I know how much I am forgiven, and I know how much I am his, and how in spite of ME, he still loves me, uses me through it all. Amazing..and he is not done with me YET...hallelujer!!

LOL, now you're preachin, and to the choir!
And very beautifully said I might add.

And you said once that you and I disagree too often...

 

[imperfectchristian]

If it is something one desires 'virtually all of the time' then I suspect God just may be bringing this separation to break that off.

The problem I have with that philosophy is that it happens to believers and non-believers alike. Does God sanctifiy those whom He has not yet justified? That would not make any sense.

Somebody needs a dose of reality. Life is busy, get on with it, for Jesus' sake.

I admire your zeal, but I feel like this lacks compassion for someone who is geuinely struggling. For the person not struggling it is very easy to say get over it and move on, but for the person struggling it is not easy at all. Know what I mean? (Just sharing my views)

Not when you have the assurance that Jesus Christ walks with you through these times. No one is laying it on thick.

Yet if they are failing then with each failure it would seem this approach would reinforce the idea that God is actually not walking with them and lead them further into discouragement and dispair. Is God only walking with me when I am doing well or is He also with me when I am running away, giving up, screaming in frustration, etc...

Besides, I am sure a right-thinking couple would have discussed the possibility of separation in the course of their relationship, and come to the conclusion as believers that they would delve into serving God, and their given ministries in order to cope with the missing.

No doubt this is probably the ideal Christian philosophy and approach, but the reality that people fail and make mistakes, leaves many asking the question...where does it put them with God?

 

[nephilimiyr]

I really like the compassion you show in this post, but I am not sure if it offers any real solution for the person struggling...comfort yes...solution...I am not seeing it atm. Could you touch on that?

Please don't take this the wrong way because I really want you to understand me right now. What I'm saying is a simple message, but I agree it's not always easy. I believe one has to come into this revelation through the Holy Spirit, not by words written down on paper. One can memorize the Bible from cover to cover and not learn much of anything that matters.

God gives that revelation to his kids freely, but He is not going to give you revelation when you come to him in an illegitimate way. You can't come to God and make requests to him through the world's religious system. It is the world's system you are practising if you think your performance has won you the right to make your requests known to him. It is the worlds religious system that you are using if you think your performance will get God to move in your life, or to even love you. Listen now, God only requires that you come to him in faith that He has done the work in you to give you the right to come before him. There is absolutely nothing you can do or say that will win you over to God, if you have his Spirit living inside you, that's all you need. You are a Son of the Most High God, and you can believe that because He has called you a son. Don't let the enemy or yourself or someone else convince you otherwise.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Please don't take this the wrong way because I really want you to understand me right now. What I'm saying is a simply message, but I agree it's not always easy. I believe one has to come into this revelation through the Holy Spirit, not by words written down on paper. One can memorize the Bible from cover to cover and not learn much of anything that matters.

God gives that revelation to his kids freely, but He is not going to give you revelation when you come to him in an illegitimate way. You can't come to God and make requests to him through the world's religious system. It is the world's system you are practising if you think your performance has won you the right to make your requests known to him. It is the worlds religious system that you are using if you think your performance will get God to move in your life, or to even love you. Listen now, God only requires that you come to him in faith that He has done the work in you to give you the right to come before him. There is absolutely nothing you can do or say that will win you over to God, if you have his Spirit living inside you, that's all you need. You are a Son of the Most High God, and you can believe that because He has called you a son. Don't let the enemy or yourself or someone else convince you otherwise.

I think you have read enough of my posts to know that I agree with you 100% Neph.

I struggle with temptations all the time and many of them sexual in nature. I would be lying if I said I didn't. However the OP was not about me although I am sure most people think it is which is fine.

I know where I stand with the Lord, but my heart is for those people who are struggling to know the Love, acceptance and forgiveness found in relationship with Jesus that is ironically quite hard to find in the religious landscape. I am not trying to pass blame or point fingers. I don't think it is intentional at all. I am comforted by the revelation that I see the Holy Spirit moving in peoples lives and drawing people to the Son regardless and in spite of our stumbling about.

At the end of the day I am basically looking for a way to better refine my faith expressing itself through love which is all that matters. (Galatians 5:6)

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am not familar with that translation...the KJV says seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be provided to you speaking of basic neccesities like food, water and raiment.

So I take it that would be your whole counsel to someone who is struggling? Basically to seek Him, live holy and that He will work it all out?

Is there anything you would add? (Keep in mind this person is in the place of failure)

All our needs, even sexual are taken care of by God, when we put Him and His Kingdom first.

If this person is in a place of failure, then he needs to be brought to repentance and restored, and offered help with accountability if there is a problem with sexual purity. That is what the Body does--it rallies around the one who struggles.

 

[imperfectchristian]

All our needs, even sexual are taken care of by God, when we put Him and His Kingdom first.

If this person is in a place of failure, then he neds to be brought to repentance and restored, and offered help with accountability if there is a problem with sexual purity. That is what the Body does--it rallies around the one who struggles.

Thanks for your posts Axe. I am going to turn in for the evening now.

Be blessed!

 

[Floatingaxe]

The problem I have with that philosophy is that it happens to believers and non-believers alike. Does God sanctifiy those whom He has not yet justified? That would not make any sense.

We are talking about believers here, are we not? Believers don't have to be buffeted about by desire. Knowing Christ, we can trust Him to help us put our desires in perspective.

I admire your zeal, but I feel like this lacks compassion for someone who is geuinely struggling. For the person not struggling it is very easy to say get over it and move on, but for the person struggling it is not easy at all. Know what I mean? (Just sharing my views)

I am telling you that--not the one I would be counseling. I would, however suggest that the person find something to do to occupy too much downtime.

Yet if they are failing then with each failure it would seem this approach would reinforce the idea that God is actually not walking with them and lead them further into discouragement and dispair. Is God only walking with me when I am doing well or is He also with me when I am running away, giving up, screaming in frustration, etc...

Basic education in the things of God would be in order then, if the person doesn't know that God is there, ready with forgiveness and another chance to do it right. He promises an escape from temptation. The person missing it needs to be encouraged to look for it.

No doubt this is probably the ideal Christian philosophy and approach, but the reality that people fail and make mistakes, leaves many asking the question...where does it put them with God?

Where does it put them with God? If they do not obey Him, then it puts them at odds with God. Nothing is too hard to do when we know he is on our side and wants us to lean on His strength for our weaknesses.


Either you lean on Him or you don't. When you don't you will continually have a failure-repentance cycle until you learn to obey and achieve a victory over the flesh--it is that simple.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Thanks for every one's posts this evening. I am going to be turning in tonight and will read what ever else is posted tomorrow.

Be blessed!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Thanks for your posts Axe. I am going to turn in for the evening now.

Be blessed!

 

[ANM29]

What makes it so hard for people is that we have been conditioned by the world that these are the only principals one can live by. We have been conditioned in this way since the day we were born, in school, and even in the church, LOL, especially in the church!

Amen, especially in the church. I find that people who have spent most of their lives in church can be some of the most conditioned, and it takes a while and process to be unconditioned ( and only by the power of God ) I remember when I first got saved and I didn't really know much about anything except I knew God was real and Jesus was Lord. I remember the Lord telling me clearly, "I do not want you to get tied up in religion, but to get to know ME". I kinda still did not get the 'religion' part because I did not grow up in church..( Though I was in foster care for a few years and they were extremely religious people when I look back on it, but that is where the seeds of Jesus were planted in me ) I did know though for those few years that what those people were doing and preaching was not right, I just knew it..but I did not know all the details of why. I knew something was very wrong, and I was a very young girl.

LOL, now you're preachin, and to the choir!
And very beautifully said I might add.
And you said once that you and I disagree too often

.....There is nothing like knowing the Grace of God, and that we are not saved by our works, NONE of them, but simply Grace..It is Grace that has already done the work......

Oh and BTW, I think the major thing we don't agree on is...you know what..

 

[ANM29]

Please don't take this the wrong way because I really want you to understand me right now. What I'm saying is a simple message, but I agree it's not always easy. I believe one has to come into this revelation through the Holy Spirit, not by words written down on paper. One can memorize the Bible from cover to cover and not learn much of anything that matters.

God gives that revelation to his kids freely, but He is not going to give you revelation when you come to him in an illegitimate way. You can't come to God and make requests to him through the world's religious system. It is the world's system you are practising if you think your performance has won you the right to make your requests known to him. It is the worlds religious system that you are using if you think your performance will get God to move in your life, or to even love you. Listen now, God only requires that you come to him in faith that He has done the work in you to give you the right to come before him. There is absolutely nothing you can do or say that will win you over to God, if you have his Spirit living inside you, that's all you need. You are a Son of the Most High God, and you can believe that because He has called you a son. Don't let the enemy or yourself or someone else convince you otherwise.

Hot diggity dog! You should definitely PREACH the Gospel somewhere in a pulpit, you know what it is...and most definitely to those who NEED God......... They need more Gospel Preachers these days, than Works and Faith Preachers.......AMEN!

 

[nephilimiyr]

I think you have read enough of my posts to know that I agree with you 100% Neph.

I struggle with temptations all the time and many of them sexual in nature. I would be lying if I said I didn't. However the OP was not about me although I am sure most people think it is which is fine.

I know where I stand with the Lord, but my heart is for those people who are struggling to know the Love, acceptance and forgiveness found in relationship with Jesus that is ironically quite hard to find in the religious landscape. I am not trying to pass blame or point fingers. I don't think it is intentional at all. I am comforted by the revelation that I see the Holy Spirit moving in peoples lives and drawing people to the Son regardless and in spite of our stumbling about.

At the end of the day I am basically looking for a way to better refine my faith expressing itself through love which is all that matters. (Galatians 5:6)

Ok, I'm sorry I directed that at you then but when you said this, "I really like the compassion you show in this post, but I am not sure if it offers any real solution for the person struggling...comfort yes...solution...I am not seeing it atm. Could you touch on that?"

I don't understand how you could agree with me and then say how you're not sure if it offers any real solutions for the people struggling. This isn't just something we acknowledge and then store in our memory somewhere where it will collect dust. We can put this into practise, I'm doing it and it's working for me. Yes in my weak and lazy moments I slip and fall back, but it's still working in me.

I really don't understand how someone can have this revelation in them and say they don't see how it offers any real solutions. I see it as being the solution.

I know this for sure, consintrating on your sins and trying your darnest to be good under the law so as to regulate your behavior is not the solution. :o