Is it wrong to demand evidence?

[Ana the Ist]

Speaking of antisemitism, I found something even more disturbing about this A True Ott who you got your stuff on the resurrection from. He apparently believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an authentic source. Here is what he wrote:

"First of all it clearly shows the POWER the EDOMITE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) wields in “programming” their own private gang of enforcers in order to keep the Goyim (human livestock) in line. The atheist, power-mad, Khazar anti-Christians seek a dominant police state in America – which then is just a small step away from the Soviet CHEKA “police” who truly terrorized and murdered millions of Russian CHRISTIANS.
Think about it folks. What makes the SPLC qualified to prepare this “mandatory” police training course? The “Us vs. Them” mentality is an integral part of the “Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion” marching orders of the Bolsheviks “Jews” – a document which of course the SPLC disparages by falsely declaring it to be a “forgery” and a “fraud”."
https://atrueott.wordpress.com/2013...khazar-edomites-are-training-law-enforcement/

Scary.

sounds like he should be called "a true gitt"

 

[agua]

What record is that ?

My record of your beliefs and how you refer to and apply them.

 

[Crandaddy]

Most faith systems demand blind obedience and blind trust in its god, precepts, doctrines, and commandments ...

What you're describing here is basically fideism, and most Christians reject it. In fact, the Catholic Church formally condemns it as heresy.

would you say it is wrong for an individual to demand personally verifiable evidence for a faith system?

Most emphatically not! A mind is a gift from God, and he intends for us to use it!

 

[yesyoushould]

Most faith systems demand blind obedience and blind trust in its god, precepts, doctrines, and commandments ... would you say it is wrong for an individual to demand personally verifiable evidence for a faith system?

No. It is good to ask God for evidence. "Test the word..."


God is truth.

"Thank you God for loving me."

 

[bhsmte]

What burden do you place upon Yahweh, to show you that He exists ?

Best answer I can give:

Personal experiences of him that are convincing would be nice.

Also, taking the typical description of a God and his characteristics and lining them up with reality and having those characteristics, be able to be reconciled with reality.

 

[bhsmte]

Hey dude ! Was waiting to see you post the last couple of days ... had a question for you

Totally unrelated to this topic and thread: what is the term for withholding punishment and treating that as though it was a "reward" ? For example: "Your reward, is that you don't get beaten today." I was sure there was a term for this (perhaps a psych related term) but I didn't know what it would be. I asked another poster, and they answered, but wanted to see if you came up with a different answer as well (if you wish to answer that is).

Sounds like pure, motivating another through fear to me.

If being beaten is a regular part of the equation and simply withholding this beating is considered the reward, most will gravitate towards the behavior that does not involve a beating, at all costs.

 

[talquin]

Most faith systems demand blind obedience and blind trust in its god, precepts, doctrines, and commandments ... would you say it is wrong for an individual to demand personally verifiable evidence for a faith system?

If one claims that there exists a god which knows everything (omniscience) and can do anything (omnipotence), then there is nothing wrong with anyone asking for demonstrations of omniscience and omnipotence as the first prerequisite before believing or following such a faith.

 

[TillICollapse]

Sounds like pure, motivating another through fear to me.

If being beaten is a regular part of the equation and simply withholding this beating is considered the reward, most will gravitate towards the behavior that does not involve a beating, at all costs.

Yeah I agree it's probably playing off fear to motivate. I was wondering if there was a specific term for it though ... Received suggested negative reinforcement, for example. Seems to fit, I was just asking more minds than one for input

 

[RDKirk]

If one claims that there exists a god which knows everything (omniscience) and can do anything (omnipotence), then there is nothing wrong with anyone asking for demonstrations of omniscience and omnipotence as the first prerequisite before believing or following such a faith.

Those are not necessary qualities for belief, however. The Philippian jailer, for instance, had not grasped any of that before he became a believer. Nor was it even necessary for his Graeco-Roman concept of creation to be demolished before he could believe.

 

[bhsmte]

Yeah I agree it's probably playing off fear to motivate. I was wondering if there was a specific term for it though ... Received suggested negative reinforcement, for example. Seems to fit, I was just asking more minds than one for input

Negative reinforcements fits when someone avoids a behavior simply to avoid punishment, yes.

 

[smaneck]

If one claims that there exists a god which knows everything (omniscience) and can do anything (omnipotence), then there is nothing wrong with anyone asking for demonstrations of omniscience and omnipotence as the first prerequisite before believing or following such a faith.

That would be quite impossible. How would one demonstrate omnipotence and omniscience? If a miracle were to be performed that would only prove that something or someone was able to do that particular thing. If secret knowledge was revealed it would only prove that a being knew that particular thing. The only thing that might prove the existence of God would therefore be the universe itself. But that begs the question, doesn't it? The real question is what difference does it make if there is a God? If He has revealed Himself, to what end? And on what basis to we believe that particular revelation?

 

[ananda]

What you're describing here is basically fideism, and most Christians reject it. In fact, the Catholic Church formally condemns it as heresy.

Most emphatically not! A mind is a gift from God, and he intends for us to use it!

No. It is good to ask God for evidence. "Test the word..."


God is truth.

"Thank you God for loving me."

OK what evidence do you have for the faith?

 

[talquin]

Those are not necessary qualities for belief, however. The Philippian jailer, for instance, had not grasped any of that before he became a believer. Nor was it even necessary for his Graeco-Roman concept of creation to be demolished before he could believe.

Must everyone have precisely the same standard of evidence before they will believe something?

 

[talquin]

That would be quite impossible. How would one demonstrate omnipotence and omniscience?

If God can do anything and knows everything, then he would be able to demonstrate omnipotence and omniscience. So if he can't demonstrate those things, then he isn't omnipotent or omniscient. Do you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient?

If a miracle were to be performed that would only prove that something or someone was able to do that particular thing. If secret knowledge was revealed it would only prove that a being knew that particular thing.

True. But if the sample size were large enough and the nature of the information revealed was so unlikely, then it would strongly suggest something of supernatural powers.

For example, if you can tell me precisely what number from 1 to 10 million I'm thinking of. And then repeat the process for each of ten numbers I think of. Or you make my bottle of water turn into a turtle.

The only thing that might prove the existence of God would therefore be the universe itself.

The universe doesn't prove the existence of God. It proves the existence of the universe.

But that begs the question, doesn't it? The real question is what difference does it make if there is a God? If He has revealed Himself, to what end? And on what basis to we believe that particular revelation?

What difference does it make? None - unless God manifests himself in reality, which he has never done. An existent God which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent God.

 

[smaneck]

If God can do anything and knows everything, then he would be able to demonstrate omnipotence and omniscience. So if he can't demonstrate those things, then he isn't omnipotent or omniscient. Do you believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient?

Here is the problem. For us to be able to recognize omnipotence and omniscience we would have to have those qualities ourselves. That is why ultimately God is unknowable.

True. But if the sample size were large enough and the nature of the information revealed was so unlikely, then it would strongly suggest something of supernatural powers.

Sure, but supernatural isn't the same as omnipotence or omniscience. Those who believe in the devil (I don't) see him as supernatural, after all.

For example, if you can tell me precisely what number from 1 to 10 million I'm thinking of. And then repeat the process for each of ten numbers I think of. Or you make my bottle of water turn into a turtle.

Don't you think water into wine is better? Can't drink a turtle. If I can tell you what number your thinking of I've proven myself to be a mind reader, not God.

What difference does it make? None - unless God manifests himself in reality, which he has never done. An existent God which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent God.

I think He has manifested Himself in many times and many places. My only objection is to those who imagine He manifested Himself only once in one place. Does He manifest His omnipotence and omniscience? Maybe not. But I think He manifests something more important. That He cares.

 

[agua]

Best answer I can give:

Personal experiences of him that are convincing would be nice.

Also, taking the typical description of a God and his characteristics and lining them up with reality and having those characteristics, be able to be reconciled with reality.

Ok cool. Most Christians that I know of have such convincing personal experiences but this isn't the beginning of revelations. The Universe itself makes Yahweh self evident, and if we accept this and search for him ( with all of the being ) the more personal ( related directly to us ) will be given.

Can you list the characteristics of the God you perceive as typical, and how you came to this conclusion of his ( its ) characteristics ?

 

[talquin]

Here is the problem. For us to be able to recognize omnipotence and omniscience we would have to have those qualities ourselves. That is why ultimately God is unknowable.

How do you define omnipotence and omniscience?

If God can do anything and knows everything, then he could do what it would take to get me to believe he exists.

Sure, but supernatural isn't the same as omnipotence or omniscience. Those who believe in the devil (I don't) see him as supernatural, after all.

I'm saying if you could do things that are typically understood as impossible and show me that you know things that couldn't be known, then that would be sufficient for me to believe that you are omniscient and/or omnipotent.

Don't you think water into wine is better? Can't drink a turtle. If I can tell you what number your thinking of I've proven myself to be a mind reader, not God.

Possibly. But what if that's what it takes to get me to believe a god exists?

I think He has manifested Himself in many times and many places. My only objection is to those who imagine He manifested Himself only once in one place. Does He manifest His omnipotence and omniscience? Maybe not. But I think He manifests something more important. That He cares.

When, where and how has he shown that he cares?

 

[RDKirk]

Must everyone have precisely the same standard of evidence before they will believe something?

No, which is my point. But as has just been mentioned, omniscience and omnipotence are not provable (practically, at any rate), so the demand of that proof merely means someone doesn't have an intention of being convinced.

I'd also point out that "omniscience" and "omnipotence" as originally accorded to God by the old theologians did not mean what people today think they mean. "Omnipotence," for instance, did not mean "God can do anything." It meant "all authority derives from God." In fact, the word in the Latin--omnipotense--was still applied to the Roman emperor when it began to be applied to God, and it meant the same thing in both cases.

 

[talquin]

No, which is my point. But as has just been mentioned, omniscience and omnipotence are not provable (practically, at any rate), so the demand of that proof merely means someone doesn't have an intention of being convinced.

I'd also point out that "omniscience" and "omnipotence" as originally accorded to God by the old theologians did not mean what people today think they mean. "Omnipotence," for instance, did not mean "God can do anything." It meant "all authority derives from God." In fact, the word in the Latin--omnipotense--was still applied to the Roman emperor when it began to be applied to God, and it meant the same thing in both cases.

Christians typically claim God can do anything and knows everything. Whether or not we call those qualities omnipotence and omniscience isn't what's relevant. What's relevant is what he would have to do and what he would have to show he knows to cause one to believe he exists.

 

[RDKirk]

Christians typically claim God can do anything and knows everything. Whether or not we call those qualities omnipotence and omniscience isn't what's relevant. What's relevant is what he would have to do and what he would have to show he knows to cause one to believe he exists.

A lot of Christians don't know the details of their own doctrine. What those Christians "typically claim" is unfortunate. God certainly does not have to do anything He doesn't claim, regardless whether His followers claim it for Him.

Nor does God have to jump through whatever hoops any given yah-hoo may insist He jump through in order for that particular yah-hoo to believe in Him. Jesus has already answered that issue:

Jesus said, "This evil generation keeps asking me to show them a miraculous sign. But the only sign I will give them is the sign of Jonah. -- Luke 11:29