Is it Wrong to Call Calvinism Unjust?

Brightfame52 said:

Romans 8:8 says they in the flesh cant please God ! Thats total inability, no ability !

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The reason they "Can't" is because they are in the flesh. If they were in fellowship, they could please God.

It only takes understanding what words mean. Then it's all clear.

FreeGrace2 said:

But Cornelius as an unsaved man DID seek God, through prayers and alms.

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All kinds of people "seek (some) God." I don't see how that answers the question at hand, and certainly not if it took a miracle by God to move Cornelius towards Peter.

Albion said:

All kinds of people "seek (some) God."

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No, Luke didn't write that Cornelius was seeking (some) God, as you say. This is just an attempt to water down what Scripture actually says.

This is what Luke wrote about Cornelius in Acts 10-
1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment.
2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked. The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.

In 3 verses, Luke mentions God, with a capital G. That's not (some) God. And only the God of heaven is capitalized.

The angel from God said this to Cornelius:
5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.

In ch 11:14 Peter explained to the saved Jews back in Jerusalem WHY he went to see Cornelius:

13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

So, Luke was very clear. Cornelius, as an unsaved Gentile, was devout, prayed to God and gave alms to the poor. And God HEARD HIS PRAYERS and sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter, through whom he would hear a message by which he and his household would be SAVED.

Nothing about God regenerating him so he could or would believe. Nothing about God causing anything but his salvation when he believed Peter's message.

We know Cornelius was saved by faith and not by election becaue of what Luke said:

17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

I don't see how that answers the question at hand, and certainly not if it took a miracle by God to move Cornelius towards Peter.

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What exactly, is the question at hand?

Regarding a "miracle", God was merely responding to Cornelius' seeking Him.

Acts 17:26-27
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Cornelius fulfilled these 2 verses. Cornelius did seek God, and found Him.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, Luke didn't write that Cornelius was seeking (some) God, as you say.

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As a matter of fact, that's EXACTLY what it says.

This is just an attempt to water down what Scripture actually says.

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Nonsense. There would be no reason for me to do such a thing. I merely referred to what the Scripture actually says rather than your modification of it.

Albion said:

As a matter of fact, that's EXACTLY what it says.

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You added (some) to "God". He did not. Which I proved in #363.

Nonsense. There would be no reason for me to do such a thing.

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Then why did you do it? You added (some) to "God" trying to make it look like Cornelius was just seeking some god. Which he wasn't. Luke told us clearly what Cornelius was doing: praying to God and giving alms.

I merely referred to what the Scripture actually says rather than your modification of it.

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So, which verse did you find the (some)? I couldn't find it.

FreeGrace2 said:

Then you just don't understand words. If someone has an inability to do something, then there is NO need for unwillingness, since they can't do it anyway.

But your eyes/ears aren't opened to truth.


Sad that you don't understand what words actually mean.


If these unregenerate Jews couldn't come to Jesus, He would have simply said so.

"ye cannot come to me, or you would have life." That's what He would have said.


Calvinists have a very bad habit of ignoring the very next verse, which ANSWERS who will come to Jesus.

"It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

The red words say that God has taught everyone. That would include Romans 1:19-21, which says that man is WITHOUT EXCUSE for not honoring Him as Creator and being thankful to Him.

The blue words are the actions of those who have paid attention to what God has taught.

The green words are the result of listening and learning from God.

Destroys calvinism.

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As long as a person is in the flesh, unregenerate, two things are for sure, they are enmity against God and can't please God.

FreeGrace2 said:

The reason they "Can't" is because they are in the flesh. If they were in fellowship, they could please God.

It only takes understanding what words mean. Then it's all clear.

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As long as a person is unregenerate they are in the flesh and can't please God, meaning they can't repent and have faith.

FreeGrace2 said:

You added (some) to "God".

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That's right, and I put it in brackets, indicating that this was my own edit and not part of the text in question.

So if you were at all confused by that, let's go with the unedited wording which tell us that Cornelius did seek "God."

But what God?

There are numerous pagans and members of other world religions, both then and now, who seek God. But not OUR God. Not Christ. Not the Trinitarian God of the Bible.

So what significance is there in saying that Mr. X believes in God? Next to none. We may call him a a theist of some sort, but that doesn't mean at all that he is already a disciple of the true God, which, however, is what you were contending was the fact of the matter.

Indeed, it was only when God intervened in Cornelius' life in a way that does not happen with very many people, and more or less led him by the hand to faith. That does not represent any 'proof positive' that all humans can just follow their own free will and choose the true God unaided.

Brightfame52 said:

As long as a person is in the flesh, unregenerate, two things are for sure, they are enmity against God and can't please God.

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Playing that record over and over doesn't change anything. It's still wrong.

Albion said:

That's right, and I put it in brackets, indicating that this was my own edit and not part of the text in question.

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Let me refresh your memory from post #364:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
No, Luke didn't write that Cornelius was seeking (some) God, as you say.

Your response:
"As a matter of fact, that's EXACTLY what it says."

It's either forgetfulness or maybe dishonesty.

So if you were at all confused by that, let's go with the unedited wording which tell us that Cornelius did seek "God."

But what God?

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Is there any other God but the God of creation? Who sends His angels to send a message to people.

There are numerous pagans and members of other world religions, both then and now, who seek God. But not OUR God. Not Christ. Not the Trinitarian God of the Bible.

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I can hardly believe that any believer can read Acts 10 and come to ANY OTHER conclusion that Cornelius was seeking the God of heaven and THAT God of heaven responded by sending an angel.

So what significance is there in saying that Mr. X believes in God? Next to none. We may call him a a theist of some sort, but that doesn't mean at all that he is already a disciple of the true God, which, however, is what you were contending was the fact of the matter.

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Are you able to accept factual objectivity?

Indeed, it was only when God intervened in Cornelius' life in a way that does not happen with very many people, and more or less led him by the hand to faith.

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Now you're adding things the Bible doesn't. Cornelius could have dismissed the vision of an angel as a bad pizza. He was part of the Italian regiment, for pete's sake. But he didn't. He responded to the message.

That does not represent any 'proof positive' that all humans can just follow their own free will and choose the true God unaided.

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I never said "unaided". That's the problem with calvinism. Always misrepresenting the views of others.

I showed from Acgts 17:26-27 that Cornelius fulfilled those verses. And I showed Romans 1:19-21 which he also fulfilled.

From what Luke described, Cornelius DID recognize the God of Creation and was seeking Him through prayer and alms. So God responded to his seeking.

I know that probably grates on calvinists to read that.

But that reminds me of another verse that was fulfilled by God and Cornelius.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

The red words were fulfilled by Cornelius. He believed the angel from God, who linked his visit to the alms and prayers that Cornelius had prayed to God.

The blue words were fulfilled by God, because He did reveal Himself to Cornelius who was seeking Him.

What you cannot deny is that Cornelius, a Gentile Roman Centurion, DID believe that Creator God existed and he was trying in the only way he knew, to seek Him through prayer and alms. And God granted his seeking.

I've dealt with calvinists in the past who went nuts when I brought up Cornelius. They actually MOCKED him and his actions, as if the story was not even worthy of discussion. It was unbelievable. But not unexpected.

Brightfame52 said:

I have the slightest Iidea what you talkig about, man is in a hopeless situation in the flesh. The only people who can repent and believe are the Born Again.

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No that’s not true. As I’ve pointed out several times the people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5 are perfectly capable of repentance but they choose not to of their own free will. God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance which mean that He has bestowed grace upon them but yet because of their own stubbornness they refuse to comply. They are not born again but they are capable of repentance.

BNR32FAN said:

No that’s not true. As I’ve pointed out several times the people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5 are perfectly capable of repentance but they choose not to of their own free will. God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance which mean that she has bestowed grace upon them but yet because of their own stubbornness they refuse to comply. They are not born again but they are capable of repentance.

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That doesn't seem to say much of anything about the need for God to make possible the turning of Man towards Christ.

As mentioned before, there is nothing unique about humans thinking of some sort of a higher power. All primitive peoples had such beliefs. And there is nothing special about humans concluding that they need to act in some way in order to appease the spirit in the sky or whatever...or, for that matter, choosing not to do so.

Such "free will" being exercised in order not to find God and not to be saved is irrelevant to this discussion.

The whole concept of becoming a disciple of the only true God and being saved as a result is much more than simply deciding about some kind of a higher power who might want some response or other from us.

FreeGrace2 said:

Playing that record over and over doesn't change anything. It's still wrong.

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Nothing going to change the fact that they who are in the flesh, all by nature, the unregenerate, cant please God. The necessity to be born again which is totally up to God.

[QUOTE="BNR32FAN, post: 75922970, member: 401065"]No that’s not true. As I’ve pointed out several times the people mentioned in Romans 2:4-5 are perfectly capable of repentance but they choose not to of their own free will. God’s kindness and patience is leading them to repentance which mean that she has bestowed grace upon them but yet because of their own stubbornness they refuse to comply. They are not born again but they are capable of repentance.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but it is true , As long as a person is unregenerate in the flesh, they cant so anything to lease God, they aren't able to render obedience to God, nor be subjected to Him. Rom 8:7-8

Albion said:

That doesn't seem to say much of anything about the need for God to make possible the turning of Man towards Christ.

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This is just an assumption or presumption on the part of calvinists. There is nothing in Scripture that even suggests this.

In fact, God has ALREADY done this, as I've shown from Scripture, you haven't addressed yet.

From Romans 1:19-21, God has "made Himself PLAIN to them (mankind) so that they have no excuse".

Then, from Acts 17:26-27 we learn that God created the human race and placed each person WHEN and WHERE He decided so that they would SEEK HIM.

It's all very clear. The reason human beings have NO EXCUSE for recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him is that He has already revealed Himself and even placed them where they CAN seek Him.

And, as Paul added, "though He is not far from each of us".

So calvinists have no excuse.

As mentioned before, there is nothing unique about humans thinking of some sort of a higher power. All primitive peoples had such beliefs.

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Have you ever thought about why that's true? All of humanity came from Adam and Eve. So the story of creation was passed down through the generations. Yes, it got fuzzy and things, but the essence of the story is about God.

Further, don't forget Romans 2:14,15 that says that even Gentiles have God's laws "written on their hearts", so that they are able to discern right from wrong.

So there are 3 things that God has ALREADY DONE so that man has no excuse.

1. Romans 1:19-21 creation itself
2. Acts 17:26-27 WHEN and WHERE God placed each person, to SEEK Him
3. Romans 2:14,15 the conscience, which is from God.

And there is nothing special about humans concluding that they need to act in some way in order to appease the spirit in the sky or whatever...or, for that matter, choosing not to do so.

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Correct. It's nothing special. The error is thinking that there MUST BE "something special" for man to turn to Got. You're looking in all the wrong places.

Such "free will" being exercised in order not to find God and not to be saved is irrelevant to this discussion.

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Except given the 3 passages above, the free will (no quotes needed) is also an opportunity to FIND God and be saved.

Are you denying the reality of the 3 passages above?

The whole concept of becoming a disciple of the only true God and being saved as a result is much more than simply deciding about some kind of a higher power who might want some response or other from us.

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No one has ever been saved by acknowledging some kind of a higher power.

Why do you seem to minimize what God has ALREADY DONE for mankind to be aware of His existence and therefore to seek Him, as Scripture clearly SAYS?

Brightfame52 said:

Nothing going to change the fact that they who are in the flesh, all by nature, the unregenerate, cant please God. The necessity to be born again which is totally up to God.

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Actually, nothing is going to change your mind.

Facts mean nothing to such people. Their minds are made up, in spite of biblical facts.

FreeGrace2 said:

Actually, nothing is going to change your mind.

Facts mean nothing to such people. Their minds are made up, in spite of biblical facts.

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My Mind is firm on the scripture friend, man by nature cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

Brightfame52 said:

My Mind is firm on the scripture friend, man by nature cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

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That doesn't help you. I already showed you Romans 6 and all the choices that believers have.

And there is NOTHING in Rom 8:8 about "man's nature cannot please God".

That's just the ruse calvinists claim to support their unbiblical TULIP.

I refuted every point with Scripture. But of course you probably weren't paying close attention.

But, IF IF IF your mind really is firm on Scripture, then please quote a verse for each point of TULIP.

And make sure each verse clearly articulates the point.

If you can't/don't do that, I'd say your "firm" grip is slipping.

freegrace

That doesn't help you.

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Actually it doesnt help you !

Brightfame52 said:

freegrace



Actually it doesnt help you !

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Prove it.