Is it true that God doesn't violate man's free will?

[Not me]

What would make it a false dichotomy and an invalid question is if you implied that God brought the animals to Adam to "learn" what he would call them - and you were unable to back it up with scripture.

Could you show us where God said that He brought the animals to Adam to learn what He would call them?

It seems that it would be the least you could do for us since you're charging our creator with lying.

Genesis 2:19 says

“(God)~~~ bought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them and whatever the man called a living creature that was it’s name”


I am not calling the Creator a liar or ascribing any evil at all in/to/by the Creator.


in Christ Not me,

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes that its correct, as shown by the fact that human beings freely choose to sin, which is never God's will.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I am not calling the Creator a liar or ascribing any evil at all in/to/by the Creator.

That's good. It sure seemed like you were.

Could you show us where God said that He brought the animals to Adam to learn what He would call them?

Genesis 2:19 says “(God)~~~ bought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them and whatever the man called a living creature that was it’s name”

That's nice. Now could you show us where the scripture says that God brought the animals to Adam to "learn" what He would call them?

We're still waiting - since that would be the basis for you considering God a liar.

By the way - you do believe that God is omniscient - don't you?

Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.
1 John 3:20 In whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
Psalm 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all
Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.

 

[Not me]

That's good. It sure seemed like you were.


That's nice. Now could you show us where the scripture says that God brought the animals to Adam to "learn" what He would call them?

We're still waiting - since that's the basis for you considering God a liar.

The scripture says” God bought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them and whatever he called them that was their name”

That, by the standard rules of grammar would mean that “God bought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them and whatever he called them that was their name”

If you want to pretend it doesn’t say what it so clearly says, you are free to do so. But that does not change what it says.

Much love in Christ, Not me.

 

[Not me]

By the way - you do believe that God is omniscient - don't you?

God can do all those things that are “doable”.

Let me explain;

There is only one way God can make a straight line. That is by taking all the crookedness out of it. Again, there is only one way God can add two plus two.

God can never violate truth. Because truth is the “is”. Lie is the “isn’t”. This has to do with the first something of creation. But this is another topic for another time.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[royal priest]

.

 

[Marvin Knox]

God can do all those things that are “doable”.
Let me explain;
There is only one way God can make a straight line. That is by taking all the crookedness out of it. Again, there is only one way God can add two plus two.
God can never violate truth. Because truth is the “is”. Lie is the “isn’t”. This has to do with the first something of creation. But this is another topic for another time.
Much love in Christ, Not me

Doing things "doable" does not apply to omniscience.

Please explain why you deny that God knows all things past, present and future as He say He does.

 

[Not me]

Doing things "doable" does not apply to omniscience.

Please explain why you deny that God knows all things past, present and future as He say He does.

First question;

So your saying Gods omniscience can function in falsehood?

If so, your ascribing evil into God.

Second question;

I never said God didn’t know everything, He said He didn’t know what name(s) Adam was going to call the animals. I just am repeating what He said.

Question is, how can this be true?

The answer to that question is the answer of Adam’s free will and the high state of his original creation. (before the fall)

Go to God and ask Him that question, and you will find that when God said He didn’t know what Adam was going to name the animals He was telling the truth. (remember this was before the fall and before the image of God got corrupted). He knew all the possibilities but not which one Adam would choose. For Adam’s will was free. Just like a Father watching their child for whom He loves play with blocks. Knows all the possibilities, but not which one the child will choose. That was, and will be again, the high state of our being. This is what the new birth has made available to us once again. This is that, which is meant by being “created in the image and likeness of God.” That which is free in God is free also in man, “the ability to choose.”

Now after Adam’s fall, God does know what mankind will choose. For the scripture says. “he that sins is a slave of sin”. So all one would have to do, is to know the master, and you will know what the slave will do, and God does know the master.

Go to God and ask if there be any truth in these writing. For I realize these are hard truths to grab onto. And if they find no place in you. That’s fine also, just keep feeding your personal relationship with Christ and you will get your “well done thou good and faithful servant” and isn’t that what we’re all after?

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

And, if so, what specifically does that mean to you?

No, it is certainly not true. God manipulates humans all the times, including the heads of nations.

"Free will" is not even in the Bible.

Paul said we are either a slave to unrighteousness, or a slave to righteousness.

Jesus did say we are free, and that does mean free will, but that does not mean God stops ordering our steps.

 

[Not me]

No, it is certainly not true. God manipulates humans all the times, including the heads of nations.

"Free will" is not even in the Bible.

Paul said we are either a slave to unrighteousness, or a slave to righteousness.

Jesus did say we are free, and that does mean free will, but that does not mean God stops ordering our steps.

There many things that are implied it the Bible that are not specificity written about. Jesus showed this is truth, when He spoke about “God being a God of the living and not the dead”. Again one and one is two is not spoken about, but it is implied with Noah building the ark. There are many such examples. And the last one “the Righteousness of God”

If man has no free will than how can God judge a man in righteousness?

The beasts of the field have no free will. They can only act according to their natures. Thereby no sin is accredited to their accounts. Man sin is accredited because his will is free.

But you will says, what about all those scriptures that talk about how God rules in the hearts of man?
Jonah showed how God rules, He did not force Jonah to do His will she convinced Jonah to do His will. Gods will will stand, if one individual will not, God will raise up another that will. Again we are showed, when God wanted to move Israel, He looked for a way, and low one said, “I will go and be a lying spirit in the mouths of their prophets, and God said go.”

God’s will must stand and be accomplished for He will see it so.

Much love in Christ, Not me.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Jonah showed how God rules, He did not force Jonah to do His will she convinced Jonah to do His will.

I said you have some measure of freedom if you are a slave to righteousness.

God did, however, manipulate Jonah.

This is why Jonah became such a powerful metaphor for Jesus to use.

God taught him that God is a merciful and forgiving God. God knew Jonah would run when He asked him to preach to Nineveh. God orchestrated where Jonah would run to, and how he would end up.

God knew this was not just about Nineveh (which was later destroyed forty years afterwards), but about Christ and his message of deliverance.

 

[Not me]

I said you have some measure of freedom if you are a slave to righteousness.

God did, however, manipulate Jonah.

This is why Jonah became such a powerful metaphor for Jesus to use.

God taught him that God is a merciful and forgiving God. God knew Jonah would run when He asked him to preach to Nineveh. God orchestrated where Jonah would run to, and how he would end up.

God knew this was not just about Nineveh (which was later destroyed forty years afterwards), but about Christ and his message of deliverance.

God has put two paths before man, this is showed in the scriptures “I have put before you life and death, therefore choose life” and this alone is his freedom to choose, one of these two things. All man are free to choose that which they will.

Maybe come at it this way. God has put two products before man. Product “a” and product “b” he can choose whichever he wants.

But the working out of this, is only in accordance with “reckoning Himself dead” for this is the only way for a man do choose product “a” (life) for He has no power in Himself to choose good, only as he “reckon himself dead” is he freed from the power of his fallen nature, thereby being free to married to someone else. It is in this joining with Christ that our salvation is bought to manifestion.
But it is only in this lifetime that this salvation can be grown. For at the passing of the body that which is grown is grown and will stand for all eternity.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

God has put two paths before man, this is showed in the scriptures “I have put before you life and death, therefore choose life” and this alone is his freedom to choose, one of these two things. All man are free to choose that which they will.

Maybe come at it this way. God has put two products before man. Product “a” and product “b” he can choose whichever he wants.

But the working out of this, is only in accordance with “reckoning Himself dead” for this is the only way for a man do choose product “a” (life) for He has no power in Himself to choose good, only as he “reckon himself dead” is he freed from the power of his fallen nature, thereby being free to married to someone else. It is in this joining with Christ that our salvation is bought to manifestion.
But it is only in this lifetime that this salvation can be grown. For at the passing of the body that which is grown is grown and will stand for all eternity.

Much love in Christ, Not me

"God orders the steps of the righteous"... I don't know what else to tell you. We have an appearance of free will, but ultimately God orders our steps.

Agree to disagree. (Even if you do not.)

 

[Not me]

"God orders the steps of the righteous"... I don't know what else to tell you. We have an appearance of free will, but ultimately God orders our steps.

Agree to disagree. (Even if you do not.)

Absolutely agree to disagree, for that which causes an increase in Christ in our innermost being is our relationship with Him. So as long as that personal relationship with Him is growning each day, sooner or later we will get to be where we need to be.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Marvin Knox]

First question; So your saying Gods omniscience can function in falsehood? If so, your ascribing evil into God.

No - I never said any such thing.

Omniscience has to do with God's complete knowledge of things past, present, future, possible, and actual. It does not have to do with His actions.

God's omniscience functions within His inscrutable mind. I have no idea what you mean by "function in falsehood".

I never said God didn’t know everything, He said He didn’t know what name(s) Adam was going to call the animals. I just am repeating what He said.

It doesn't say that He didn't know what Adam would call the animals.

If God had said that He drove Jesus into the wilderness to see what He would do under temptation - it would not be saying that He didn't know what Jesus would do. His overcoming of sin was known by God from before the foundation of the world.

Predestination in no way eliminates the so called choices of men. The actions of men (like Adam and most certainly Jesus) are what God uses to establish what has been predestined to occur (bring it to past).

......Just like a Father watching their child....

This is likely the root of your problem. You error in that God does not only "watch" His creation. He is intimately involved in the providential control of His creation. All thing are created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word all things exist. God is omnipresent.

In the decree of God we (and Adam before us) live and move and have our very being.

God is not only transcendent. He is immanent as well.

Now after Adam’s fall, God does know what mankind will choose.

God knew it even before the fall of mankind - from before the foundation of the world in fact.

So all one would have to do, is to know the master, and you will know what the slave will do, and God does know the master.

I have no idea what you mean by that. God is the master.

Go to God and ask if there be any truth in these writing. For I realize these are hard truths to grab onto. And if they find no place in you. That’s fine also, just keep feeding your personal relationship with Christ and you will get your “well done thou good and faithful servant” and isn’t that what we’re all after?

I have asked Him and He showed me that you are making up theology as you go along. You are trying to explain the difficult things of the Word of God by creating God in your own image and then trying to explain Him to us.

 

[Not me]

No - I never said any such thing.

Omniscience has to do with God's complete knowledge of things past, present, future, possible, and actual. It does not have to do with His actions.

God's omniscience functions within His inscrutable mind. I have no idea what you mean by "function in falsehood".
It doesn't say that He didn't know what Adam would call the animals.

If God had said that He drove Jesus into the wilderness to see what He would do under temptation - it would not be saying that He didn't know what Jesus would do. His overcoming of sin was known by God from before the foundation of the world.

Predestination in no way eliminates the so called choices of men. The actions of men (like Adam and most certainly Jesus) are what God uses to establish what has been predestined to occur (bring it to past).

This is likely the root of your problem. You error in that God does not only "watch" His creation. He is intimately involved in the providential control of His Awcreation. All thing are created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word all things exist. God

I have asked Him and He showed me that you are making up theology as you go along. You are trying to explain the difficult things of the Word of God by creating God in your own image and then trying to explain Him to us.

No - I never said any such thing.

Omniscience has to do with God's complete knowledge of things past, present, future, possible, and actual. It does not have to do with His actions.

God's omniscience functions within His inscrutable mind. I have no idea what you mean by "function in falsehood".
It doesn't say that He didn't know what Adam would call the animals.

If God had said that He drove Jesus into the wilderness to see what He would do under temptation - it would not be saying that He didn't know what Jesus would do. His overcoming of sin was known by God from before the foundation of the world.

Predestination in no way eliminates the so called choices of men. The actions of men (like Adam and most certainly Jesus) are what God uses to establish what has been predestined to occur (bring it to past).

This is likely the root of your problem. You error in that God does not only "watch" His creation. He is intimately involved in the providential control of His creation. All thing are created by His Word, for His Word, and in His Word all things exist. God is omnipresent.

In the decree of God we (and Adam before us) live and move and have our very being.

God is not only transcendent. He is immanent as well.

God knew it even before the fall of mankind - from before the foundation of the world in fact.

I have no idea what you mean by that. God is the master.

I have asked Him and He showed me that you are making up theology as you go along. You are trying to explain the difficult things of the Word of God by creating God in your own image and then trying to explain Him to us.

I do believe I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, with all you have stated above. If it is true that you have gone to God and that is what He has revealed to you, please by all means continue. For the scripture Philippians 3 16 says "we should keep living to the standard we have obtained"

One thing I would request of you, is to, make sure it is what your personal relationship with Christ is teaching you and not your human reasoning. For the Gospel is a "ministration of the Spirit" all truth needs to be birthed inwardly in you. (by experience).

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[Marvin Knox]

I do believe I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, with all you have stated above. If it is true that you have gone to God and that is what He has revealed to you, please by all means continue. For the scripture Philippians 3 16 says "we should keep living to the standard we have obtained" One thing I would request of you, is to, make sure it is what your personal relationship with Christ is teaching you and not your human reasoning. For the Gospel is a "ministration of the Spirit" all truth needs to be known inwardly (by experience).

What I know from the scriptures is that God knows the "end from the beginning".

That means He knew from the beginning what Adam would end up naming the animals.

This isn't really up for debate.

If you deny the doctrine of absolute omniscience you undermine all we know about what God intends and always has intended to happen in His creation. That includes our salvation in Christ - the fall which resulted in it's necessity - and the past, present and future work of Christ on our behalf.

This isn't spiritual rocket surgery. It's basic systematic theology.

You don't get to come up with theories which deny the most basic attributes of God just to accommodate your inflated view of what God values concerning our free will.

That is to say - to the extent our wills can be absolutely free considering mankind's very being existing and being sustained in God's decrees - as it has both before and after the fall.

I understand why you want to rewrite the revelation of God concerning His omniscience.

It doesn't take a logic professor to realize what omniscience means to the absolute sovereignty of God in all that happens including our personal salvation experiences.

I.e. - if God knew from before the foundation of the world everything that would happen in history (and He did) - there is absolutely no chance that what He knew will happen will not indeed happen.

That means whatever happens was "pre" destined to happen from before it ever came into being. That means (just as He says) that the only one who existed when He knew what would in creation in history is the one who "predestines" all things.

We are created in the image of God and, to the extent it is possible, we have free will to make choices concerning what happens in our lives.

But we are only free to be "God like" to a certain extent. We can never be absolutely free. We can never be God.

I do believe that everything from the fall of Satan to the present time is to show that fact.

Lucifer will never be entirely like God - and never will you. Learn to live with that fact and bring your theology into line with it and you will not incur a negative judgment as a teacher when you stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ.

 

[Not me]

What I know from the scriptures is that God knows the "end from the beginning".

That means He knew from the beginning what Adam would end up naming the animals.

This isn't really up for debate.

If you deny the doctrine of absolute omniscience you undermine all we know about what God intends and always has intended to happen in His creation. That includes our salvation in Christ - the fall which resulted in it's necessity - and the past, present and future work of Christ on our behalf.

This isn't spiritual rocket surgery. It's basic systematic theology.

You don't get to come up with theories which deny the most basic attributes of God just to accommodate your inflated view of what God values concerning our free will.

That is to say - to the extent our wills can be absolutely free considering mankind's very being existing and being sustained in God's decrees - as it has both before and after the fall.

I understand why you want to rewrite the revelation of God concerning His omniscience.

It doesn't take a logic professor to realize what omniscience means to the absolute sovereignty of God in all that happens including our personal salvation experiences.

I.e. - if God knew from before the foundation of the world everything that would happen in history (and He did) - there is absolutely no chance that what He knew will happen will not indeed happen.

That means whatever happens was "pre" destined to happen from before it ever came into being. That means (just as He says) that the only one who existed when He knew what would in creation is the one who "predestines" all things.

Our salvation in Christ consists of the “life of Christ”’ really and fundamentaly being formed in the life of the believer. All until than, is a mental comprehension of the words of scripture.—Though this learning is nesassay and fundamental to growth of the life of the believer. It is only a first step and preparatory to the life of Christ really and fundamental being formed in the life of the believer. When this has reached its end, (the preparatory teaching) and a believer is brought to the place where he sees all human learning is profitless, he than cry’s out for a living relationship with Christ, it is than that “Christ as our life” takes on a whole new meaning. And he sees that when “Christ died he died”
than the words “reckon yourself died” become the most blessed words ever spoken. Than he sees like never before, that he is a stranger in a strange land.

Keep feeding your personal relationship with Christ and you will do well.

Much love and prayers in Christ, Not me

 

[Marvin Knox]

Our salvation in Christ consists of the “life of Christ”’ really and fundamentaly being formed in the life of the believer. All until than, is a mental comprehension of the words of scripture.—Though this learning is nesassay and fundamental to growth of the life of the believer. It is only a first step and preparatory to the life of Christ really and fundamental being formed in the life of the believer. When this has reached its end, (the preparatory teaching) and a believer is brought to the place where he sees all human learning is profitless, he than cry’s out for a living relationship with Christ, it is than that “Christ as our life” takes on a whole new meaning. And he sees that when “Christ died he died”
than the words “reckon yourself died” become the most blessed words ever spoken. Than he sees like never before, that he is a stranger in a strange land.

Keep feeding your personal relationship with Christ and you will do well.

Much love and prayers in Christ, Not me

Heavy!

I suspected that your view of things was more varied than simply not understanding omniscience properly.

Actually - this goes to confirm what I have always believed concerning theology.

That is that if you miss a basic precept concerning God's nature or our nature - you will likely misstep a lot more along the way. Those missteps may even concern some basic understandings about the mechanics of salvation.

Good luck in your studies. I hope to see you on the other side of this life.

 

[Not me]

Heavy!

I suspected that your view of things was more varied than simply not understanding omniscience properly.

Actually - this goes to confirm what I have always believed concerning theology.

That is that if you miss a basic precept concerning God's nature or our nature - you will likely misstep a lot more along the way. Those missteps may even concern some basic understandings about the mechanics of salvation.

Good luck in your studies. I hope to see you on the other side of this life.

By these words I wonder if you really have a personal relationship with Christ. They do give me pause, I am concerned for you. Will be praying for you.

Much love and prayers in Christ, Not me