Is it true that God doesn't violate man's free will?

[mkgal1]

And, if so, what specifically does that mean to you?

I just read this article....and agree that, in a way only God can do, God allows humanity to make our own choices.....but in His omnipotence and omniscience.....His will *will* be done (we've already seen much evidence of this recorded in Scripture).

From linked article-------->LOVE AT THE GATE – Luke 19:37-44 The entrance of Christ into the city of Jerusalem on that day so long ago was a divine expression of God’s love for you and me. There are two aspects of God’s love on display here: God’s love is intentional, and God’s love is providential.

The entrance of Christ into the city was anything but “ambiguous” (uncertain, unclear). It was a manifestation of God’s intentional and prophetic will. Deity – God in flesh – was on display! John 1:14; Hebrews 1:3. Ambiguity would have kept Christ from the cross, but intentionality placed Him on it! Prophetically, the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24, 25), under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, prophesied the exact time when the promised Messiah – the Savior of the world – would enter the city triumphantly. “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks…” (Daniel 9:25a).

Biblical scholar Harold Hoehner, author of the Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, points out that Daniel’s prophecy clearly states that the time from the decree to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem issued by Persian King Artaxerxes in 444 B.C. to the coming of the Messiah would be “seven weeks times sixty-nine weeks,” which equals 483 years, or 173,880 days according to the Jewish prophetic year of 360 days. Jesus Christ, according to Hoehner’s verifiable calculations, entered Jerusalem on the 10th day of the Hebrew month of Abib, A.D. 33; exactly 173,880 days or 483 years from the date of king Artaxerxes’ decree, just as God had said! The fulfillment of this prophecy is essential to our salvation; for if Christ had not entered the city on that day, His crucifixion and resurrection would not matter; He had to “fulfill” all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). THIS DAY COULD NOT BE DENIED! (v.40); it was intentional! With intentionality, Christ came to be our sacrificial lamb, for the sin of the world! According to Exodus12:3, the day Jesus entered the city on Palm Sunday was “lamb selection day!” A sacrificial lamb without blemish was to be selected on the 10th of Abib, and sacrificed on the 14th day of the same month; thus, Jesus entered the city on lamb selection day! (Ray Vander Laan). John the Baptist declared this fact: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) God’s love for you is not ambiguous, but intentional! Secondly: God’s love is providential. John 3:16, “God so loved…” His providential, determined love led Christ through the eastern gate on that day, nearly two-thousand years ago! Providential love is greater than the offenses and obstacles which face it! Love seeks to enter where it has been offended. Note three things: (1) Love still loves when it has been abandoned. (ttt) Mark 14:27-31, 50. How often have we promised to be loyal to Him only to abandon Him? (2) Love still loves even when you curse it! Peter was especially vocal (v.29); (ttt) Luke 22: 61, 62. How many times have we cursed Him; living as if did not even know Him? (3) Love continues to love knowing we will fail it. (ttt) Luke 22:31-34. How many times have we also failed Him? Yet, knowing all of this – all of our flaws and failures – love entered the city!~http://www.cwccs.org/filerequest/2578.pdf

​

 

[David Kent]

Do we have freewill not to sin? Of course not. Our freewill is only to sin.

 

[Not me]

I have

And, if so, what specifically does that mean to you?

I just read this article....and agree that, in a way only God can do, God allows humanity to make our own choices.....but in His omnipotence and omniscience.....His will *will* be done (we've already seen much evidence of this recorded in Scripture).

From linked article-------->LOVE AT THE GATE – Luke 19:37-44 The entrance of Christ into the city of Jerusalem on that day so long ago was a divine expression of God’s love for you and me. There are two aspects of God’s love on display here: God’s love is intentional, and God’s love is providential.

The entrance of Christ into the city was anything but “ambiguous” (uncertain, unclear). It was a manifestation of God’s intentional and prophetic will. Deity – God in flesh – was on display! John 1:14; Hebrews 1:3. Ambiguity would have kept Christ from the cross, but intentionality placed Him on it! Prophetically, the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24, 25), under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, prophesied the exact time when the promised Messiah – the Savior of the world – would enter the city triumphantly. “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks…” (Daniel 9:25a).

Biblical scholar Harold Hoehner, author of the Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, points out that Daniel’s prophecy clearly states that the time from the decree to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem issued by Persian King Artaxerxes in 444 B.C. to the coming of the Messiah would be “seven weeks times sixty-nine weeks,” which equals 483 years, or 173,880 days according to the Jewish prophetic year of 360 days. Jesus Christ, according to Hoehner’s verifiable calculations, entered Jerusalem on the 10th day of the Hebrew month of Abib, A.D. 33; exactly 173,880 days or 483 years from the date of king Artaxerxes’ decree, just as God had said! The fulfillment of this prophecy is essential to our salvation; for if Christ had not entered the city on that day, His crucifixion and resurrection would not matter; He had to “fulfill” all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). THIS DAY COULD NOT BE DENIED! (v.40); it was intentional! With intentionality, Christ came to be our sacrificial lamb, for the sin of the world! According to Exodus12:3, the day Jesus entered the city on Palm Sunday was “lamb selection day!” A sacrificial lamb without blemish was to be selected on the 10th of Abib, and sacrificed on the 14th day of the same month; thus, Jesus entered the city on lamb selection day! (Ray Vander Laan). John the Baptist declared this fact: The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) God’s love for you is not ambiguous, but intentional! Secondly: God’s love is providential. John 3:16, “God so loved…” His providential, determined love led Christ through the eastern gate on that day, nearly two-thousand years ago! Providential love is greater than the offenses and obstacles which face it! Love seeks to enter where it has been offended. Note three things: (1) Love still loves when it has been abandoned. (ttt) Mark 14:27-31, 50. How often have we promised to be loyal to Him only to abandon Him? (2) Love still loves even when you curse it! Peter was especially vocal (v.29); (ttt) Luke 22: 61, 62. How many times have we cursed Him; living as if did not even know Him? (3) Love continues to love knowing we will fail it. (ttt) Luke 22:31-34. How many times have we also failed Him? Yet, knowing all of this – all of our flaws and failures – love entered the city!~http://www.cwccs.org/filerequest/2578.pdf

​

I am under the belief, that when God said “let us make man in our image” that meant just that. So the attributes that were in God, were also to be found in man. One of those was the ability to choose. For if mans will is not free to choose, either God or self, how could God righteously judge man?

in Christ Not me

 

[com7fy8]

I am under the belief, that when God said “let us make man in our image” that meant just that. So the attributes that were in God, were also to be found in man. One of those was the ability to choose.

But another attribute of God is how God "cannot be tempted by evil" (in James 1:13). God made man in His image, but not with His inability to do evil.

Only Jesus is the real image of God. Man was made as a created image, not perfectly the way Jesus is the image of God and can not sin.

And, by the way, Jesus is more free in His will, than we humans are in our free wills. Jesus is free from being able to sin.

So . . . man's free will is very limited.

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. When God overrides the proud, by resisting them, He is not honoring their free wills' choices.

And Isaiah 55:11 says,

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

This is an unconditional guarantee of how God's word will do all which God pleases . . . not limited to how we humans are able to understand and choose to do His word. God in us is working better than we in our own wills are able to desire and will to do >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

By the way . . . if you can control things by your will, you can know what will happen tomorrow. God knows the future, because God is the One in control.

 

[Not me]

But another attribute of God is how God "cannot be tempted by evil" (in James 1:13). God made man in His image, but not with His inability to do evil.

Only Jesus is the real image of God. Man was made as a created image, not perfectly the way Jesus is the image of God and can not sin.

And, by the way, Jesus is more free in His will, than we humans are in our free wills. Jesus is free from being able to sin.

So . . . man's free will is very limited.

"God resists the proud" > in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. When God overrides the proud, by resisting them, He is not honoring their free wills' choices.

And Isaiah 55:11 says,

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

This is an unconditional guarantee of how God's word will do all which God pleases . . . not limited to how we humans are able to understand and choose to do His word. God in us is working better than we in our own wills are able to desire and will to do >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

By the way . . . if you can control things by your will, you can know what will happen tomorrow. God knows the future, because God is the One in control.

So are you saying you believe man has no free will?

in Christ Not me

 

[mkgal1]

By the way . . . if you can control things by your will, you can know what will happen tomorrow. God knows the future, because God is the One in control.

I just wanted to clarify, by "man's free will" I don't mean that we can, in some way, control our destiny. I merely mean that we make our own decisions/choices.....we aren't being controlled or programmed to act a certain way (that's my belief, anyway).

 

[com7fy8]

So are you saying you believe man has no free will?

Well, I did not actually say man has no free will. Let's see what you understand, so I can answer to what you think >

For if mans will is not free to choose, either God or self, how could God righteously judge man?

Ok, in Romans chapter nine, our Apostle Paul says all is under God's control. And one might say, then, how could this be right, how could God judge humans if He is really in so much control?

And Paul says, God does judge, no matter if we like this or understand this, or not.

And . . . if you make something which has no will about how it is made . . . like a work of carpentry or something you cook . . . it has no choice how it comes out, but you control it. But, even if it has no will, you do evaluate how your masterpiece or meal is, don't you? You do judge what you make, even if it has no will.

So . . . whether or not man has free will, God certainly does judge how each man is becoming.

So . . . do humans have free will? The way they do, yes . . . the way we humans might suppose we do, not necessarily

We humans can want to believe we have power to control things. This can be an ego problem!! But what if we are making the wrong choice; is God loving His own children by letting us get badly hurt? Would you let your little child get burned on the stove or in an impulsive moment of foolishness run out on a road in fast-moving traffic?

Because our Father loves us, He corrects His children > Hebrews 12:4-11. And I offer that real correction is not what we want, while we are being selfish and foolish. But He changes us to become more His way so we are more and more willingly obeying Him . . . like how Jesus so greatly free is freely obeying our Father in love.

Do we want real love? Then we need how God corrects us and cures us contrary to our present nature. Our nature can mess up how we will and do not will. We, then, in our human and egotistical wills are not really free, since our real character can mess us up . . . down.

So . . . yes we have some sort of free wills, as humans, but we were born in sin so our wills have been fallen and not free > Romans 6:17. We needed how God redeemed us so we can share with Jesus in His love with His love's freely obedient way in us. Or else, someone is not free, really, and needs to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" > Acts 26:18.

So . . . yes without Jesus humans are free in their wills, but they are not free in real love. They are free from God. This is not good freedom. Jesus makes us "free indeed", in real love > John 8:36. And this love keeps us from the torment of fear > 1 John 4:18. While the torment of fear can effect what you will to do, your will is not really free. So, it is wise not to make human free will an idol to hold on to!!

 

[com7fy8]

I just wanted to clarify, by "man's free will" I don't mean that we can, in some way, control our destiny. I merely mean that we make our own decisions/choices.....we aren't being controlled or programmed to act a certain way (that's my belief, anyway).

Thank you, M K Gal . . . God bless you It is nice to see you, again

You are very clear.

Yes, we do make choices. But I understand we make choices but not without influence in various ways, as I have offered, above.

We can experience, though, that we are making our own choices, totally on our own. But this is a deception of perception, I now understand.

And we need to be in union with God (1 Corinthians 6:17, Romans 5:5) and how He personally rules each of us in His own peace > Colossians 3:15 > so we experience personally sharing with Him while submitting to how He in us rules us. So, if we are experiencing being independent of Him, I would say this is a problem > because Paul says >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

 

[mkgal1]

We humans can want to believe we have power to control things. This can be an ego problem!!

Edited: redundant.

 

[Not me]

Well, I did not actually say man has no free will. Let's see what you understand, so I can answer to what you think >
Ok, in Romans chapter nine, our Apostle Paul says all is under God's control. And one might say, then, how could this be right, how could God judge humans if He is really in so much control?

And Paul says, God does judge, no matter if we like this or understand this, or not.

And . . . if you make something which has no will about how it is made . . . like a work of carpentry or something you cook . . . it has no choice how it comes out, but you control it. But, even if it has no will, you do evaluate how your masterpiece or meal is, don't you? You do judge what you make, even if it has no will.

So . . . whether or not man has free will, God certainly does judge how each man is becoming.

So . . . do humans have free will? The way they do, yes . . . the way we humans might suppose we do, not necessarily

We humans can want to believe we have power to control things. This can be an ego problem!! But what if we are making the wrong choice; is God loving His own children by letting us get badly hurt? Would you let your little child get burned on the stove or in an impulsive moment of foolishness run out on a road in fast-moving traffic?

Because our Father loves us, He corrects His children > Hebrews 12:4-11. And I offer that real correction is not what we want, while we are being selfish and foolish. But He changes us to become more His way so we are more and more willingly obeying Him . . . like how Jesus so greatly free is freely obeying our Father in love.

Do we want real love? Then we need how God corrects us and cures us contrary to our present nature. Our nature can mess up how we will and do not will. We, then, in our human and egotistical wills are not really free, since our real character can mess us up . . . down.

So . . . yes we have some sort of free wills, as humans, but we were born in sin so our wills have been fallen and not free > Romans 6:17. We needed how God redeemed us so we can share with Jesus in His love with His love's freely obedient way in us. Or else, someone is not free, really, and needs to be turned "from the power of Satan to God" > Acts 26:18.

So . . . yes without Jesus humans are free in their wills, but they are not free in real love. They are free from God. This is not good freedom. Jesus makes us "free indeed", in real love > John 8:36. And this love keeps us from the torment of fear > 1 John 4:18. While the torment of fear can effect what you will to do, your will is not really free. So, it is wise not to make human free will an idol to hold on to!!

For a being to be a creature, that creature has to have a nature. Now a dog has a nature, it is free to act, but only to act according to its nature, like a dog, (that’s why dogs can’t sin.) When God made man as a sentient being, (like Himself), man too must have a nature. But for a sentient being, there are only two possibility's. A evil nature or a good nature. God has given man the ability to choose his nature. Whether it be good, by choosing God, or evil by choosing self.

For life is the greatest gift, if some people choose to abuse the gift, that’s not a reason not to give it.

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi @mkgal1, concerning free will, Jesus said this:

John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it for ever.
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.​

And St. Paul told us these things concerning non-Christians:

Romans 3
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD

1 Corinthians 1
18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.​

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Question, why do you think Jesus said that "the truth will set you free" and "everyone who sins is a slave to sin" if our wills are truly free? What does knowing/understanding the "truth" of God have to do with free will anyway?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[mkgal1]

But what if we are making the wrong choice; is God loving His own children by letting us get badly hurt? Would you let your little child get burned on the stove or in an impulsive moment of foolishness run out on a road in fast-moving traffic?

Because our Father loves us, He corrects His children

This is where I believe our beliefs separate. I believe ALL of humanity is "God's children" (and I know about the verse that distinguishes who is/who isn't "called children of God").....but this leads people to believe that only bad things happen to "bad" (non-believing) people. What about the horrible things that happen to faithful, loving, kind people? Why were the people that caused that pain allowed that choice? I believe it's nothing more than evidence that God grants us those choices....but in the end.....He will still restore all things.

 

[mkgal1]

Question, why do you think Jesus said that "the truth will set you free" and "everyone who sins is a slave to sin" if our wills are truly free? What does knowing/understanding the "truth" of God have to do with free will anyway?

The theme of bondage/being held captive is a different topic, as I see it, than our actual freedom to make choices (maybe it should be called our "personal agency" instead?). I'm going to borrow a blog post that Light of the East shared. I believe it's an excellent description of man's will (and God's ultimate will).

ETA: ------->The writer goes on to make the statement that God MUST respect our free will, and to not do so is to deny our human dignity. Since I have a distinct dog in this fight, one that the writer may never have encountered, I feel I must respond to this.

If God had respected my free will, I would still be involved in a panoply of sins so disgusting and heinous that I will not mention them here. Or I would now be long dead and gone from this world. Given the severity of my wickedness and the insanity of my actions, I think probably the latter. Think of the Hippie Movement of the 1960’s and imagine every licentious, dirty, and wicked thing that the Movement promoted. That was me, and that was my “free will choice,” so to speak. I loved the sins of the flesh, I had declared myself an atheist, and I despised Christians. I wanted nothing at all to do with them or their Jesus. That was my free will. Go away God! Go away Christians!

So how did I come to the point of repenting and turning to Christ in sorrow for my sins? Did God overtake and remove my free will, eliciting from me a robotic response of repentance which He desired? Was my will violated in such a manner that I had no choice but to do what I was told?

No, God simply let me “run out my string.”

There is a saying in the Twelve Steps book of AA which says that you cannot make an addict change until he has hit the bottom and is watching his last bubble of air float to the surface. That is exactly what God did with me, allowing me to, of my own “free will,” hit the bottom and realize that all the “fun” I was having was about to kill me. Far from the sense of carnal excitement I felt when I took my first hit of marijuana, my life had become, in four years of unrestrained hedonism, a joyless tedium racked with sorrow and drug-induced psychosis. I was in deep trouble and I knew it, filled with suicidal thoughts but dreadfully scared of the black void which my atheism said was the ultimate end of man. Of my own free will, I began an intense search for the garden gate which offer escape from this fool’s paradise into which I had eagerly dashed. No one had to tell me it was get out or die – and no one was coercing me! I had come to the point that I knew it was the only option left for me. Yet even then, I could have chosen to shake my fist at God and die. I took the choice to live and began my search.

The gate out of my individual hell came in the shape of a cross.

Did God in any way violate my free will? Or did He simply allow me to come to a point where the foolishness, the vanity, and the destructiveness of my choices could no longer be ignored, and the “joys” of unrestrained hedonism were not worth the price I was paying?~God’s Hand & Our Free Will​

 

[Not me]

Hi @mkgal1, concerning free will, Jesus said this:

John 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it for ever.
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.​

And St. Paul told us these things concerning non-Christians:

Romans 3
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD

1 Corinthians 1
18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.​

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.​

Question, why do you think Jesus said that "the truth will set you free" and "everyone who sins is a slave to sin" if our wills are truly free? What does knowing/understanding the "truth" of God have to do with free will anyway?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

As Paul made plain in Romans the “will” is free to choose good (God) but the body is a slave to its fallen nature. That why our salvation consists of our selfs “having died in Christ” so that a new creation can be born.

Maybe come at it this way;

You never have to teach a child to misbehave. Why? Because the misbehavior is inwardly born. This is why Christ came and died. That a new divine nature would take it’s place, so it would be natural for us to behave, like it’s natural for a unregenerate man to misbehave.
That is why Christ said “yea MUST be born again” for that’s when the new birth or the new creation (both the same) have their birth or start.


in Christ, Not me

 

[mkgal1]

As Paul made plain in Romans the “will” is free to choose good (God) but the body is a slave to its fallen nature. That why our salvation consists of our selfs “having died in Christ” so that a new creation can be born.

I'd just make one, small, change to this.....because in this verbiage it's too close (IMO) to dividing up our spirits and our bodies as spirit/good...and body/evil. I'd change that to say, "Our will is free to choose good (God) but our carnal flesh [sometimes called "ego"] is a slave to its fallen nature".

Christ showed us, though, that He overcame that power of the carnal nature.....so wouldn't that mean we are no longer "slaves" to that nature? I'm thinking it may be shame that keeps a person "locked up" in sin a lot of the time (believing they can't be anything better than they are). But....they have the choice to believe that God loves them (and that they CAN be more than what they are at the moment).

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.~Galatians 5:1


I call heaven and earth to testify against you today! I've set life and death before you today: both blessings and curses. Choose life, that it may be well with you—you and your children. ~Deuteronomy 30:19
​

 

[Marvin Knox]

.............. I merely mean that we make our own decisions/choices.....we aren't being controlled or programmed to act a certain way (that's my belief, anyway).

No strain of biblical theology denies that we make our own decisions. It is the nature of a creature made in God's image.

No strain of biblical theology believes that men are controlled or programmed to act a certain way. The "way we act" is our own choice to make - although it is influenced mightily by our current relationship with God. It has been that way since creation before the fall and it is the way it has been after the fall and it's resultant curse on the creation.

And, for the record since it always comes up in discussions about free will ----

No strain of biblical theology believe that the will of man is negated by the fact that God decrees all that will take place in His creation (and I do mean no strain including 5 point hyper Calvinists).

The most authoritative source of Calvinistic thought on the matter make it clear that any charges of "robots" or "automatons" or the like leveled at Calvinists is nothing but a vicious false representation of their beliefs and teachings.

The Westminster Confession of Faith:
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

 

[mkgal1]

Okay.....I have no argument against that. That's merely all I meant when I said, "God never violates a man's will". Maybe I should start using "personal agency" in lieu of "will"?

For the record, I mentioned "programmed" and "robots" after I was challenged to show Scripture to support the assertion that God doesn't violate man's will (meaning = ability to make their own choices). The only logical opposition to that would be programmed robots being controlled.

 

[Marvin Knox]

............I said, "God never violates a man's will".............For the record, I mentioned "programmed" and "robots" after I was challenged to show Scripture to support the assertion that God doesn't violate man's will (meaning = ability to make their own choices). The only logical opposition to that would be programmed robots being controlled.

God seldom "takes away the ability to make free choices" from a man. But He certainly did in the case of Nebuchadnezzar.

He certainly "violated" the will of Jonah to go to Tarshish instead of Nineveh. He certainly violated the will of Saul to go to go to Damascus and persecute the Christians there.

To say that God "never" violates a man's will is simply not biblical. But God has other ways of affecting the will of men to do His will other than simply programing them to do so or zapping them into robots - and to deny that He often uses those other methods to bring the will of men into line with His will is to ignore what the scriptures teach.

To say that the "only logical opposition to that would be programmed robots being controlled" is to do that, and IMO, much more than simply ignore the what the scriptures teach.

It is a misrepresentation of the beliefs of the great many serious students of scripture who believe that "no one seeks God" unless He first seeks them.

I don't know that that's where you're headed with this. But it usually is when some takes a strong stand for free will. You'd be the exception if you were simply out to stimulate thought on the subject and had no agenda.

 

[mkgal1]

He certainly "violated" the will of Jonah to go to Tarshish instead of Nineveh. He certainly violate the will of Saul to go to go to Damascus and persecute the Christians there.

To say that God "never" violates a man's will is simply not biblical.

What I struggle with as to this argument.....is, if God directed these narratives, then why hasn't He directed the narratives of all the horribly abused innocent people all throughout history (like innocent children being horribly abused)?

I'm just not sure on where I stand on how all that fits together.

It is a misrepresentation of the beliefs of many who believe that "no one seeks God" unless He first seeks them.

I don't know that that's where you're headed with this. But it usually is when some takes a strong stand for free will. You'd be the exception if you were simply out to stimulate thought on the subject and had no agenda.

Well.....HE did seek us (all). I believe that's the whole message of the entire Bible summed up (so that sort of takes care of that issue.....right?). There's no exception to that (and it's already in the past that He demonstrated His love for us....we don't have to wait for that day).

If, however, you're referring to a particular doctrine of specific people being "called"....then I don't believe in that. I believe He loves us ALL....and wishes us ALL to come to repentance (and that we will.....eventually).

But.....not, I didn't really have a certain agenda when I wrote that (I have to look back to see the context now).

ETA: This is what I was originally responding to:

"No why does God wait to end suffering? Why not now? Given the premise God is all loving and all will be saved, why wait for the afterlife. Why not end suffering now?"

 

[1213]

And, if so, what specifically does that mean to you?

Free will means to me that people are free to want whatever they want. It doesn’t mean things go always as they want.