Is it time to stop policing the black community?

[Ana the Ist]

How is this any better?
“Poor people get a lower grade of ‘justice’”?
That’s acceptable to you, is it?

If you can come up with a better system....I think everyone here will consider it.

Pointing out that the current system isn't perfect doesn't really help.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If they are experiencing racism then they haven't succeeded.

It sounds like you're talking about all racism....not systemic racism (which has to be distinct in some way or we wouldn't need it as a concept).

If you're talking about all racism....including interpersonal racism. That's something all races are guilty of...not just whites.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

It sounds like you're talking about all racism....not systemic racism (which has to be distinct in some way or we wouldn't need it as a concept).

If you're talking about all racism....including interpersonal racism. That's something all races are guilty of...not just whites.

Systemic Racism.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear...

The definitions that exist are either too vague to be meaningful.

Or they aren't consistently applied in the case of every race.

Therefore, those definitions are useless for whatever you are trying to say.

I'm left with only context. The context is a concept that is itself racist or at least deceptive.

Is that more clear?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, nor do I want to make accusations against you.

There's a lot of definitions and I don't know which one you believe.

Even though I know it's hopeless and you won't commit to a definition I'll ask one last time...


Can you define systemic racism in a way that makes it a meaningful concept?

If you can't...your complaints about people disagreeing are ridiculous.

Ok, so it's like I said - there is a definition for systemic racism but you just don't like it (sounds like you don't quite understand it). That's fine, but don't say there is "no definition".

As for getting 150 million white people to agree, that can absolutely be done and we can know when it happens.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

My parents only arrived a few years before I was born. Yet I (and they) still benefitted from some degree of white privilege. All of us should pay restitution as the American society.

Black slavery was ended. Jim Crow was ended. Lawful rights were codified. Favoritism and opportunities given. I think that's enough.

I never rejected the premise. I have rejected your assertion that you had brought it up and you have yet to show me where you've brought it up. You certainly haven't explained it. I can't even reject the premise when you haven't even explained what it was.

I posted links to my explanation, you said you read them, and yes you did rejected it, in post #398.

Success is not just financial success. That's where I misunderstood you. As a Christian, I believe what God's Word defines as "success" so I wouldn't accept financial success as the same thing as "success". Black people who have financial success yet still experience racism do not have success overall

I've made it clear that while financial success is possible for anyone racism will likely remain. If your idea of success is both then you are going to be disappointed.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Black slavery was ended. Jim Crow was ended. Lawful rights were codified. Favoritism and opportunities given. I think that's enough.

That's not enough. Systemic racism hasn't ended and is still a huge problem.

Do you think that because fewer people die from cancer than they did 50 years ago that there's "enough" research done on curing it and we should stop? I don't. I'm pro-life. I'm also pro-life when it comes to the lives of those who are victims of injustice.

I posted links to my explanation, you said you read them, and yes you did rejected it, in post #398.

In that post I asked you why you propose the solution of "black capital formation" and then turn right around and explain that it won't work anyway because people will still be as racist as dead skunks or some silly think like that. If I'm wrong, show me where I rejected it in that post (and there is no post 398 by the way).

I've made it clear that while financial success is possible for anyone racism will likely remain. If your idea of success is both then you are going to be disappointed.

So your idea of success is solely financial success.

Yes, my idea of success is both (well, all) which is truly success and is also Biblical. As a Christian, I believe that justice and success are not based on money and material things (or as the Bible calls it, Mammon). Because what good is having that when you still get treated like a second-class citizen or worse simply because of your race or ethnicity?

But at least I finally understand where you're coming from. In your view, money is all that matters and therefore any financial success is the only thing that matters. To be honest, if your idea of success is money and mammon, then you are going to be disappointed.

As a Christian I have to abide by different standards than that, but also I know from God's Word that laying up treasures on earth is n solution to anything. The Bible is clear about money and its role:

Matthew 6:
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Can you answer this question:
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

 

[Oneiric1975]

No you have not. You haven't given an example of a single system in this country that is racist. You just claim systemic racism exists somewhere out there, but you don't give any examples of it actually existing. Care to try again?


I gave a definition of systemic racism so we can have an understanding of what we are talking about. If you disagree with the definition I provided, say so.


If it is, you should be able to give an example of a system in this country that is racist; instead of just making empty claims. Care to try again?

It must be tiring fighting against the tide of reality. But I understand why it is absolutely necessary. If we accept that systemic racism is real then we have to do something about it. And that might mean giving up some of our own privilege OR giving others privilege.

Tap dance as you wish. Parse and peel apart every word down to the infinitive. If you must...

 

[Oneiric1975]

Black slavery was ended. Jim Crow was ended.

Jim Crow never really ended. It just "morphed" into our prison-justice system in many different ways.

Now we have the new new Jim Crow with rampant voter disenfranchisement efforts centered around POC and poor people (neither of which will vote for the party that found good people among neo-nazis).

 

[98cwitr]

Jim Crow never really ended. It just "morphed" into our prison-justice system in many different ways.

Please unpack that; providing examples. No one MAKES someone commit crimes.

 

[Oneiric1975]

Please unpack that; providing examples. No one MAKES someone commit crimes.

If the criminal justice system were as simple as you seem to think I could see this point. But it isn't. There's a ton of things that happens from the process of being stopped by police to winding up in prison.

(Here's a nice summary chart set)

"Stop and Frisk" was largely a racist program. If it wasn't set up to be so it quickly became one when black people were stopped more at random than white people. (You surely don't think that if we stopped white kids at the same rate we wouldn't find just as much crime do you?)

Once someone enters the system the district attorney has the tools necessary to get an outcome. One of the things they like to do is "stack charges" which is totally discretionary to them. This is where they come up with every imaginable charge and threaten the person in custody with nearly infinite time in jail for what started off as a simple offense...even if they don't actually have a shot at getting those charges to stick they have the right and when going up against the power and might of the government few will be able to stand up to it and will quickly plead out to a lesser charge.

Once convicted (as shown MANY TIMES NOW) black people end up with worse outcomes vs whites charged with the same or similar crime.

We can look at our prison system and realize that there is SOMETHING wrong. When the per capita rate of incarceration of black people as a fraction of their representation in the general population vs that for white people you have to ask yourself:

Are black people more likely to be criminals?

The obvious answer is "no" for non-bigots. So what's the reason?

WHY are we incarcerating POC at rates that are ridiculously high?

Let's help the bigots in the country and say "it's poverty" as opposed to racism. OK. So why do we fight tooth and nail to ensure our social safety net is so porous and nearly non-existent?

Which is it? Or is it just "ok" to imprison POC at these ridiculous rates because we can't deal with poverty?

 

[Speedwell]

It sounds like you're talking about all racism....not systemic racism (which has to be distinct in some way or we wouldn't need it as a concept).

If you're talking about all racism....including interpersonal racism. That's something all races are guilty of...not just whites.

Do you think it is possible for people to act in ways that have the effect of racism even though they may not harbor racist sentiments themselves?

 

[Foamhead]

You should follow the thread more carefully (you too Summer).

I followed the threat perfectly fine. Once again:

What is your evidence that black cops don't enforce the law against other black citizens?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's not enough. Systemic racism hasn't ended and is still a huge problem.

Do you think that because fewer people die from cancer than they did 50 years ago that there's "enough" research done on curing it and we should stop? I don't. I'm pro-life. I'm also pro-life when it comes to the lives of those who are victims of injustice.


In that post I asked you why you propose the solution of "black capital formation" and then turn right around and explain that it won't work anyway because people will still be as racist as dead skunks or some silly think like that. If I'm wrong, show me where I rejected it in that post (and there is no post 398 by the way).


So your idea of success is solely financial success.

Yes, my idea of success is both (well, all) which is truly success and is also Biblical. As a Christian, I believe that justice and success are not based on money and material things (or as the Bible calls it, Mammon). Because what good is having that when you still get treated like a second-class citizen or worse simply because of your race or ethnicity?

But at least I finally understand where you're coming from. In your view, money is all that matters and therefore any financial success is the only thing that matters. To be honest, if your idea of success is money and mammon, then you are going to be disappointed.

As a Christian I have to abide by different standards than that, but also I know from God's Word that laying up treasures on earth is n solution to anything. The Bible is clear about money and its role:

Matthew 6:
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Can you answer this question:
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Sorry, that was post #298.

Black economic success is very valuable in the 'shtruggle' against racism. If you unpack 'systemic racism' you find that money is the number one complaint, thus the calls for reparations and wealth equity. Other complaints, like police brutality are down the list in the big picture.

My proposals will greatly reduce racism. As blacks gain financially there will be fewer things for racists to complain about. That said there will always be racism here to some extent.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Jim Crow never really ended. It just "morphed" into our prison-justice system in many different ways.

Now we have the new new Jim Crow with rampant voter disenfranchisement efforts centered around POC and poor people (neither of which will vote for the party that found good people among neo-nazis).

I believe the Republicans made some pretty good gains in the last election among POC.

 

[Oneiric1975]

I believe the Republicans made some pretty good gains in the last election among POC.

Yeah, that's why Trump lost. It also kicked off unprecedented attacks on enfranchisement of POC.

So much winning.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I followed the threat perfectly fine. Once again:

What is your evidence that black cops don't enforce the law against other black citizens?

I didn't say that. Reread and follow the thought.

 

[Oneiric1975]

Sorry, that was post #298.

Black economic success is very valuable in the 'shtruggle' against racism. If you unpack 'systemic racism' you find that money is the number one complaint, thus the calls for reparations and wealth equity. Other complaints, like police brutality are down the list in the big picture.

My proposals will greatly reduce racism. As blacks gain financially there will be fewer things for racists to complain about. That said there will always be racism here to some extent.

So you want to tackle poverty? How do you propose we do that? I have some ideas but I'd like to hear what you think is the best approach.

Hopefully it doesn't involve bootstraps.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yeah, that's why Trump lost. It also kicked off unprecedented attacks on enfranchisement of POC.

So much winning.

The Right gained POC voters, and seats in the House. Not bad for a losing effort in the presidential race. The Left is scared to death of the mid terms. News at eleven (November 2022).

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you think it is possible for people to act in ways that have the effect of racism even though they may not harbor racist sentiments themselves?

Absolutely....let me give you an example ...

Let's say a black man goes to a job interview with a white employer. He does poorly. He seems unprepared, he showed up late, gives generic answers to questions....etc.

At the end of the interview, which the employer cuts short, he's told the employer has more interviews and he will be called if they decide to hire him....and he never gets a call. He doesn't get the job.

Now let's imagine the exact same thing happened....except this time the employer is racist and he decides as soon as he sees the applicant is black, he won't give him the job.

Everything else about the interview is exactly the same.

So while the behavior of the employer is the same in both cases....in only one of them is the racist beliefs of the employer guiding the behavior.

The effects of the employer behavior is the same....the effect (not getting the job) can happen for reasons that are racist or not.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Are black people more likely to be criminals?

The obvious answer is "no" for non-bigots. So what's the reason?

Actually, the answer is yes...if we're talking about statistical probabilities.

The answer is no if you wrote the question as....

"Are black people more likely to be criminals because they are black?"

The answer to that is no.

There's nothing bigoted about the facts....

How income varies among U.S. religious groups

I can say, for example, that the average Jewish household is more likely to be wealthy than people of other religions.

That's a fact.

It's only bigoted if I assume the reason is because they are Jewish.