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IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

ViaCrucis

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Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of confusion in terms:

While the Torah is Law, not all Law is Torah.

The Torah refers to 613 mitzvot ("commandmetns") which God gave to the Israelites as part of the covenant He established with them at Mt. Horeb through Moses. Included among these 613 mitzvot are the Decalogue which were written on the two tablets of stone. God did not give the Torah to any other people, as Scripture itself states,

"And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, 'Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD.'" - Deuteronomy 5:1-5a

"He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes to Israel. He has not dealt thus with any other nation; they do not know His rules. Praise the LORD!" - Psalm 147:19-20

These commandments were given exclusively to the Israelites, and to no other people, as part of the covenant God established with Israel, through Moses, at Mt. Horeb in Sinai.

This is not the covenant we have today, because we have received a new and better covenant, in Christ.

"But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. ... In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." - Hebrews 8:6,13

The Apostle, condemning those who forced the yoke of the Torah on Christians, especially Gentile converts, writes thus:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." - Colossians 2:16-17

The Apostle goes so far as to say he would that those who teach such things should go ahead and go all the way,

"I would that they who trouble you would cut the whole thing off!" (Galatians 5:12)

Yes, he really does mean what it sounds like he means.

What none of this, however, means is that there is no law at all, or that lawlessness rules. Just because the Torah does not apply to us, does not mean God's Law does not apply to us. Because God's moral law is not a particular law to a particular people, it is what is lawful, right, and just.

Murder did not become wrong when Moses brought forward the tablet of stone on which it was written, "Thou shalt not murder", it was always wrong.

So those who would say, "If Torah does not apply to us we can go and murder" don't know what they are saying. Murder did not become wrong when it was given to Israel, but was always wrong--and for everyone.

Do not, therefore, confuse Torah (the particular law given to Israel) with God's Law in the broad sense. All Torah is Law, but not all Law is Torah.

Look at our own civil laws: Murder is illegal according to the laws of our nations, but not every nation has the same laws. The United States penal codes apply to me, as an American; and included in those laws it says that murder is wrong. That murder is also wrong in other parts of the world, indeed, in every nation across the globe, does not mean that the citizens of other nations are subject to the penal codes and laws of the United States. I am subject to them because I am a citizen of the United States, but a Canadian, an Australian, or someone from China, Japan, or Laos is not. Even though we would all agree to the wrongness of murder.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Right. That was a poor example that I provided. My bad. Jesus asking the man to carry his mattress home on the Sabbath might be a better example. It caused a HUGE issue.

I remember you saying this one before in another thread. But it just doesn't hold water. Picking up a sleeping mat is not monotonous general physical labor at like a job. It is a requirement for him to sleep. Are we prevented in eating food on the Sabbath? Please show me in Scripture that carrying a mat is considered as general labor at like a job? In the OT, a man was condemned for collecting sticks, but this was because he was desiring to do manual physical labor like he always did through out the week. It's not the same thing as carrying a mat around so you can sleep. For what if a priest left his sleeping mat in the barn? Is he forbidden in taking it into the house so as to sleep on the Sabbath? What if his wife was sick, and she needed to sleep but couldn't get comfortable? Is the priest condemned for trying to do good for his wife? Surely not. It's not every day physical labor like working at a job.
 
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Saint Steven

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I remember you saying this one before in another thread. But it just doesn't hold water. Picking up a sleeping mat is not monotonous general physical labor at like a job. It is a requirement for him to sleep. Are we prevented in eating food on the Sabbath? Please show me in Scripture that carrying a mat is considered as general labor at like a job? In the OT, a man was condemned for collecting sticks, but this was because he was desiring to do manual physical labor like he always did through out the week. It's not the same thing as carrying a mat around so you can sleep. For what if a priest left his sleeping mat in the barn? Is he forbidden in taking it into the house so as to sleep on the Sabbath? What if his wife was sick, and she needed to sleep but couldn't get comfortable? Is the priest condemned for trying to do good for his wife? Surely not. It's not every day physical labor like working at a job.
The general labor, or occupational labor idea is a fallacy. No work of any kind is to be done on the Sabbath. The obvious question is, "What constitutes work?" I get that. More proof that the law creates conflict.

Here is the original commandment. No work. Not any work. Look at the list of those required not to work. What are their occupations? And where is the wife in this? Can you find her? (she's there)

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 
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Now, if the guy (with the sleeping mat) made a business out of transporting sleeping mats to customers, and he was carrying around sleeping mats all day with the intention of getting paid, then he would be condemned if he was doing this on the Sabbath. But seeing the sleeping mat was something that he used as a part of his every day needs to sleep for himself and not for profit or general labor, then he was not violating the Sabbath. The idea here is resting on the Sabbath from your general weekly labor (like at a job or from a business). The man was homeless and did not have a job or worked. But you seemed to think he did work (When he really didn't).
 
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The general labor, or occupational labor idea is a fallacy. No work of any kind is to be done on the Sabbath. The obvious question is, "What constitutes work?" I get that. More proof that the law creates conflict.

Here is the original commandment. No work. Not any work. Look at the list of those required not to work. What are their occupations? And where is the wife in this? Can you find her? (she's there)

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

What did God do on the six days of creation? He was creating things. He was working. But on the 7th day He rested (stopped) from this work. That is the pattern of the Sabbath for us. Did God do a light thing on each day of creation? No. So the idea that doing simple things (like carrying around a mat for you to sleep on) is not what God was trying to condemn as a part of the Sabbath. For if such were the case, the guy should have stripped down nude because he was also carrying clothes, too. Anyways, God did major work on the 6 day creation (and it was not any kind of small work going on here).

If the Old Covenant was still in effect and if you do major labor like cooking and or gathering wood for your family, that can be considered work. But what if your family was going to freeze to death? The situation has changed. God never intended believers in the Old Covenant (in the past) to perish because of the Sabbath. If you lived under the Old Covenant, you can even help a neighbor bring his animal out of a ditch. It's because it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Now, if you had a business that was focused on getting animals out of ditches and you did that 6 days a week and you decided to do that on the 7th day, then you would be condemned (if you lived during the time of the OT). The idea here is general laborious work and not simple activities or things done so as to save life and or help people in dire need.

Anyways, I am not going to keep arguing with you about this. If you do not agree, then we should agree to disagree. For I do not feel it is right to argue endless over the Mosaic Law (See Titus 3:9).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hello Jason, some comments for your consideration below.
The Law has changed:
Depends on what laws your talking about. God's Covenant has changed. The Shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant are fulfilled in Christ and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT. Gods eternal law (10 Commandments however have not changed and are foerever giving us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11; Psalms 119:172). You mix up the shadow laws from the MOSAIC book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) with God's eternal law (Psalms 19:9-11) that give us a knowledge of what sin is in order to lead us to Christ that we might be justified [FORGIVEN] by faith (Galatians 3:22-25). If God's Law (10 Commandments) are eternal how can they change (Psalms 19:9-11)? If you do not understand what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is?

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil).

These Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated in the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more. Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, and the dietary laws, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole).

Nope! Gods 4th commandment is not part of the Mosaic book of the laws it is written in the 10 Commandments which were written on two tables of stone with the other 9.

Where is circumcision, animal sacrifices written under the 10 Commandments?

Again, you are mixing up your shadow laws from the MOSAIC book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) with God's eternal law (Psalm 19:9-11) that give us a knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11; Psalms 119:172). If God's Law is eternal how can they change (Psalms 19:9-11)?

Now your argument is that the 10 Commandments is written for Israel but we have to keep 9 of them in the NEW COVENANT but the 4th commandment we no longer have to? Not very consistant brother.

Where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment is now abolsihed and we are not commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Who is God's ISRAEL under the NEW COVENANT? Gentiles are now grafted into God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-27). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

How so? Here are a list of verses: 7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

Dear brother your now taking scripture out of CONTEXT. 2 Corinthians 3 is talkiing about the OLD to the NEW COVENANT. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand what the NEW COVENANT is?

CONTEXT is

2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-10
[1], Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
[2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
[3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
[4],
And such trust have we through Christ toward God:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6], Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
[7], But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[8], How shall not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?
[9], For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10], For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.

Now take a look at v3 highlighted in RED which is the CONTEXT or what follows.

Now take a look at the NEW COVENANT promise from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated by the same same author as Corinthians in Hebrews 8:10-12 and 10:16-17

Hebrews 8:10-12
[10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.[12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

2 Corinthians 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of God's LAW written on the heart through LOVE by His Spirit. Moving from the tables of stone to the fleshly tables of the heart (2 Cor 3:3; Hebrews 8:10)

Let's look at the scriptures laid out together side by side...

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3, [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

links to...

Hebrews 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

links to...

JEREMIAH 31:33 [33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

links to...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

links to...

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3 [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.

continuing in Ezekiel 36..

[27], And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God's Spirit of love...

ROAMNS 13:8-10 [8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

.................

CONCLUSION
: 2 Cor 3 is talking about the NEW COVENANT of LOVE written on the heart to walk in God's LAW, through LOVE. It is NOT talking about ABOLISHING God's LAW it is talking about FULFILLING God's LAW in those who BELIEVE God's WORD. This is RIGHTEOUSNESS (Salvation) by FAITH for a SINNER that BELIEVES the WORD'S of the SAVIOUR (JESUS). What is being ABOLISHED is the condemnation and the penalty of sin [DEATH] through FAITH in Christ by walking in the Spirit under the NEW COVENANT.

................

SIN is still the same as it has always been which is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

Sorry Jason God's WORD disagrees with you here :wave:
 
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LoveGodsWord

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"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

Indeed but if you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand what the NEW COVENANT is? You mix up the shadow laws from the MOSAIC book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) with God's eternal law (Psalms 19:9-11) that give us a knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-11; Psalms 119:172). If God's Law is eternal how can they change (Psalms 19:9-11)?

You have left out the context again for the scripture you quote in Hebrews 8:13.

Lets have a look at what the chapter is referring to..

HEBREWS 8:1-7

[1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Note the context of v13 we are talking about Jesus as our high Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary ministering for us on our behalf.

[3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: therefore it is of necessity that this man have something also to offer.

In the earthly Sanctuary sacrifices were required for forgiveness of sin

[4], For if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Jesus is not doing this on earth but in heaven.

[5], Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, says he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

The earthly Sanctuary was a Shadow of the heavenly that Moses made according to the pattern shown him from God.

[6], But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Jesus has a more excellent ministry now under a BETTER COVENANT.

[7], For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

OK NOTE WHAT LAWS ARE WE TALKING about from the OLD COVENANT was it the 10 COMMANDMENTS? OR THE MOSAIC BOOK OF THE LAW for remission of sin?

EXODUS 24 [7], And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

CONTEXT is talking about the changing of the role of the high priest and the ministration of Jesus as our great high Priest and sacrifice for sin under the NEW COVENANT it's application is to the SHADOW laws of the OLD TESTAMENT from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT. NOT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS. These scriptures show you have taken your interpretation out of CONTEXT which is HEBREWS 8:1-7.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

You have lost your conext again brother..

ROMANS 7:5-7
[5], For when we were in the flesh [SINFUL HUMAN NATURE], the passions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
[6], But now we are delivered from the law, being dead to that in which we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

NOTE: v5 when we were in the FLESH [sinful human nature] we were condemned to death [the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23] v6 But NOW being delivered from the law; [How are we being deleivered from the law?] Being dead to that which has bound us. [What has bound us?] that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
v5 it is sin that has bound us we need to be dead to it to serve in newness of life under the Spirit of LOVE and not of the oldness of the letter. Being dead to that which has bound us [SIN] we have forgivness and have been delivered from the fruit of sin [DEATH] v5.

[7], What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, you shall not covet.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

Leaving out CONTEXT again brother. What is the chapter context is it the 10 Commandments of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT?

v11 Shadow law of CIRCUMCISION
v12 Shadows of Baptism
v13 Shadows of death to sin and UNCIRCUMCISION

CONTEXT is not the 10 Commandments the CONTEXT is the shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

v14 Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφωexaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase>the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφονcheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμα dogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means ordinance; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLIESIASTICAL laws >that was against us, WHICH WERE AGAINST , and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 is in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT. The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA mean ing THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant

Can you see your errors here brother in every case so far you have taken scripture out of Context.

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

Now once again are the scriptures you have provided here in HEBREWS 10 talking about God's 10 Commandments or are they talking about the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT for remission of sins? Once again there is no mention of the 10 Commandments here. We are talking about the Shadow laws for remission of sins from the MOSIAC BOOK of the COVENANT.

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“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

Already addressed ACTS 15 in detail here CLICK ME. ACTS 15 topic of CONTEXT is adressing the questions "IS CIRCUMCISION A REQUIREMENT FOR SALVATION" ACTS 15:1. It is not talking about the 10 commandments but CIRCUMCISION from the MOSAIC BOOK of the law which is fulfilled in the NEW COVANANT. New gentile believers were to learn more about God in the Synagogues every Sabbath v21

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

CONTEXT brother you have left it out of every scripture you have provided in your posts as has been proven to you so far by adding in the scriptures you have left out.

Your scripture is correct under the OLD COVENANT and CIVIL LAWS of ISRAEL not only were people killed for breaking God's 4th Commandment Sabbath, what you left out here is that people were killed for OPENLY breaking nearly ALL of God's 10 Commandments. For example serving other god's death penalty (Deuteronomy 13:16-18; 1 Samuel 26:19), Idolartry death pemalty (Deuteronomy 13:1-10; 17:2-5; 27:15; 7:25-26), using God's name in vain death penalty (Leviticus 24:10-17), Breaking the Sabbath, death penalty (Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2), Dishonor parents death penalty (Leviticus 20:9; Deuteronomy 21:18-21; Exodus 21:17, Murder death penalty (Exodus 21:12-14), Adultery death penalty (Leviticus 20; John 8:5), Stealing (kidnapping) death penalty Exodus 21:16, Lying death penalty (Deuteronomy 19:15-21).

Under the NEW COVENANT the wages of SIN is still the DEATH penalty although judgment is executed at the 2nd coming and final judgment (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12; Romans 2:12-13)

So no brother those scripture do not help you.

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

Already addressed above Colossians 2 chapter CONTEXT and topic of discussion is the laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT in ORDINANCES, NOT the 10 Commandments.

DETAILED SCRIPTURE REVIEW IS HERE. CLICK ME.

Read it if you disagree prove it from scripture as shown you in the liked post were your interpretation is shown to be false because you took out context from your interpretation.

So it appears things have changed. This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

Already show above you have taken scripture out of context in every use of scripture in this post. As shown earlier in Hebrews 10; Hebrews 7 is talking about the change in the Levitical priest hood and sanctuary laws from the MOSAIC book of the Covenant not the 10 commandments. Read the scriptures.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

...........

Now Jason the laws 2-3 posts made to you prove with scripture that your references have been taken out of Context? Hope you can see this now.

If you disagree then please adress the full content of my posts to you as I hace done for you so we can discuss it. If you cannot then we should believe the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. (Matthew 15:3-9)

Sorry Jason, God's WORD disagrees with you :wave:
 
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LoveGodsWord

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As I said to you before, I am not going to endless argue the Mosaic Law with you. That would be a violation of Titus 3:9 for me.

Hello Brother Jason, I am only sharing God's WORD with you. I suggest you re-visit your understanding of Titus 3:9

TITUS 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

NOTE: In Titus 3:9 the GREEK word for law used here is νομικός ; nomikos which means ceremonial laws. So the scripture says to avoid foolish questions in relation to tracing generations [Geneologies] and havnig contentions about the ceremonial laws that are unprofitable.

It is not saying you should not discuss the 10 Commnadments. The issue of the time was the ceremonial shadow laws fulfilled in Christ from the Mosaic book of the covenant, not God's eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of sin.

As God's 10 commandments give us a knowledge of what sin is and sin will keep all those who practice it out of God's Kingdom, I think it is profitable to discuss them don't you?

If you do not wish to discuss the scriptures that disagree with you brother there is no pressure to do so here.

Maybe you can pray about it at home :wave:
 
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LoveGod'sWord:

Not going to read the endless walls of text in what you had written because I said that I am not going to endless argue with a person over the Mosaic Law according to Titus 3:9. In other words, you wasted your time copying and pasting multiple replies to me. I am not going to read them.

May God's love shine upon you today.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of confusion in terms:

While the Torah is Law, not all Law is Torah.

The Torah refers to 613 mitzvot ("commandmetns") which God gave to the Israelites as part of the covenant He established with them at Mt. Horeb through Moses. Included among these 613 mitzvot are the Decalogue which were written on the two tablets of stone. God did not give the Torah to any other people, as Scripture itself states,

"And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, 'Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today. The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire, while I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD.'" - Deuteronomy 5:1-5a

"He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes to Israel. He has not dealt thus with any other nation; they do not know His rules. Praise the LORD!" - Psalm 147:19-20

These commandments were given exclusively to the Israelites, and to no other people, as part of the covenant God established with Israel, through Moses, at Mt. Horeb in Sinai.

This is not the covenant we have today, because we have received a new and better covenant, in Christ.

"But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant He mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. ... In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." - Hebrews 8:6,13

The Apostle, condemning those who forced the yoke of the Torah on Christians, especially Gentile converts, writes thus:

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." - Colossians 2:16-17

The Apostle goes so far as to say he would that those who teach such things should go ahead and go all the way,

"I would that they who trouble you would cut the whole thing off!" (Galatians 5:12)

Yes, he really does mean what it sounds like he means.

What none of this, however, means is that there is no law at all, or that lawlessness rules. Just because the Torah does not apply to us, does not mean God's Law does not apply to us. Because God's moral law is not a particular law to a particular people, it is what is lawful, right, and just.

Murder did not become wrong when Moses brought forward the tablet of stone on which it was written, "Thou shalt not murder", it was always wrong.

So those who would say, "If Torah does not apply to us we can go and murder" don't know what they are saying. Murder did not become wrong when it was given to Israel, but was always wrong--and for everyone.

Do not, therefore, confuse Torah (the particular law given to Israel) with God's Law in the broad sense. All Torah is Law, but not all Law is Torah.

Look at our own civil laws: Murder is illegal according to the laws of our nations, but not every nation has the same laws. The United States penal codes apply to me, as an American; and included in those laws it says that murder is wrong. That murder is also wrong in other parts of the world, indeed, in every nation across the globe, does not mean that the citizens of other nations are subject to the penal codes and laws of the United States. I am subject to them because I am a citizen of the United States, but a Canadian, an Australian, or someone from China, Japan, or Laos is not. Even though we would all agree to the wrongness of murder.

-CryptoLutheran

Hello brother CryptoLutheran, nice to see you again and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I think from reading your post above however your whole premise is that God's LAWS are for ISRAEL therefore are not for us under the NEW COVENANT. At this point we could ask what laws you are referring to are not for us in the NEW COVENANT but I just wish to ask a few questions in relation to the premise of your post if I man?

Do you know where the name ISRAEL comes from in the OLD TESTAMNENT SCRIPTURES and who are God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT? You do know gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT right?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother .

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD. :wave:
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGod'sWord:

Not going to read what you had written because I said that I am not going to endless argue with a person over the Mosaic Law according to Titus 3:9. In other words, you wasted your time copying and pasting multiple replies to me. I am not going to read them.

May God's love shine upon you today.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

It's ok Jason, I am only reposting because you continue to copy and paste the same old things that have already been addressed with scripture that disagrees with you.

You do not need to read them or respond if you do not wish to brother. I have posted them for others to see that what you have written and the scriptures you have used have been taken out of context.

You are free to believe as you wish and I wish you well as we are all only held accountable to God come judgment day. But if you cannot address the posts sent to you then it should give you room for concern.

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD :wave:
 
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Hello Brother Jason, I am only sharing God's WORD with you. I suggest you re-visit your understanding of Titus 3:9

TITUS 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

NOTE: In Titus 3:9 the GREEK word for law used here is νομικός ; nomikos which means ceremonial laws. So the scripture says to avoid foolish questions in relation to tracing generations [Geneologies] and havnig contentions about the ceremonial laws that are unprofitable.

It is not saying you should not discuss the 10 Commnadments. The issue of the time was the ceremonial shadow laws fulfilled in Christ from the Mosaic book of the covenant, not God's eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of sin.

As God's 10 commandments give us a knowledge of what sin is and sin will keep all those who practice it out of God's Kingdom, I think it is profitable to discuss them don't you?

If you do not wish to discuss the scriptures that disagree with you brother there is no pressure to do so here.

Maybe you can pray about it at home

*Sigh* You did not grow up writing or speaking Biblical Greek. So please stop acting like you know a dead language. God's Word in our own language is what we will be held accountable to. God does not ask us or require us to study another ancient language so we can understand Him. Most often then not, people thrown down the original languages card because they do not want to just read and believe what the Bible ways plainly in their own Bible that they normally read in our every day language.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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*Sigh* You did not grow up writing or speaking Biblical Greek. So please stop acting like you know a dead language. God's Word in our own language is what we will be held accountable to. God does not ask us or require us to study another ancient language so we can understand Him. Most often then not, people thrown down the original languages card because they do not want to just read and believe what the Bible ways plainly in their own Bible that they normally read in our every day language.

Hello Jason, that does not really make much sense as all the bible needed to be translated from the Hebrew and Greek into English (and other languages). These are the orignal languages the scriptures were given in. Determining context is very important in understanding the scriptures which are revealed through God's Spirit. God only holds us accountable to what we know not what we do not know. If you reject God's WORD then you are accountable to God for rejecting it.
 
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Hello Jason, that does not really make much sense as all the bible needed to be translated from the Hebrew and Greek. These are the orignal languages the scriptures were given in. Determining context is very important in understanding the scriptures which are revealed through God's Spirit.

I understand that it does not make sense to you. It's the way of study that you have always ever known. In fact, entire Bible schools have fed people the lie that they can know a dead language. This is not to say we cannot make some reasonable assumptions on what those words can mean, but this would be based upon the preserved Word of God that we have in our hands today in our own language. God's Word is not dead. It does not exist only in some dead language that nobody can really know or test. God's Word is living and active today in our world language and it changes lives every day. No fancy Lexicon is needed.
 
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I understand that it does not make sense to you. It's the way of study that you have always ever known. In fact, entire Bible schools have fed people the lie that they can know a dead language. This is not to say we cannot make some reasonable assumptions on what those words can mean, but this would be based upon the preserved Word of God that we have in our hands today in our own language. God's Word is not dead. It does not exist only in some dead language that nobody can really know or test. God's Word is living and active today in our world language and it changes lives every day. No fancy Lexicon is needed.

Jason that is like saying all the translators from the HEBREW to the GREEK and then to the English (or other languages) have got it wrong and the Bible is not correct? Maybe I am reading you wrong. I know you do not think that. God's Word is translated and preserved for all mankind through his Spirit. Understanding the Hebrew and the Greek I believe can help clear up confusion in relation to context and there with God's help can help us with understanding the scriptures.
 
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Jason that is like saying all the translators from the HEBREW to the GREEK and then to the English (or other languages) have got it wrong and the Bible is not correct? Maybe I am reading you wrong. I know you do not think that. God's Word is translated and preserved for all mankind through his Spirit.

The problem I have is that folks today feel they need to quote the original languages because they think the Bible translated in their language today says something completely different.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you know where the name ISRAEL comes from in the OLD TESTAMNENT SCRIPTURES and who are God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT? You do know gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT right?

Moot question. Or more accurately the question misses the point and obfuscates the matter.

The right and relevant question is: Are Christians under the covenant God made through Moses? And the very clear and explicit answer to that is no.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The problem I have is that folks today feel they need to quote the original languages because they think the Bible translated in their language today says something completely different.

Maybe some people do some do not. I do not know. I think though it is very useful to look at Hebrew and Greek word meanings to help in the understanding of the scriptures. You will notice I only post the Hebrews and Greek word meanings occasionally. I think it is important sometimes as the English words used sometimes may be different to the original word meanings or can help provide context like the Titus 3:9 example above.
 
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Moot question. Or more accurately the question misses the point and obfuscates the matter.

The right and relevant question is: Are Christians under the covenant God made through Moses? And the very clear and explicit answer that is no.

-CryptoLutheran

Hello Brother ViaCrucis, why in your view do you feel it is a moot question when your whole premise is that God's LAW is for Israel only?
 
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Maybe some people do some do not. I do not know. I think though it is very useful to look at Hebrew and Greek word meanings to help in the understanding of the scriptures. You will notice I only post the Hebrews and Greek word meanings occasionally. I think it is important sometimes as the English words used sometimes may be different to the original word meanings or can help provide context like the Titus 3:9 example above.

That's the problem. You just said that the English words used sometimes may be different to what the original words mean. I don't believe my English Bible conflicts with the Scriptures that were written in the Hebrew and the Greek. I believe they are saying the same thing.

The problem with claiming that the real meaning is in the Hebrew and Greek and the English is wrong is that nobody would be able to correct you. Moses and Paul are not alive today. Moses cannot tell you that your Hebrew is off and nor is Paul alive today to tell you that your Greek is off. People just have to take it by faith that you are right and if they are gullible, they would be none the wiser. But with the English, you really cannot do that. Words mean certain things in the English language and people can know what these words mean because they had grown up writing and speaking this language intimately. A person cannot pull the wool over somebody's eyes as easily if they are trying to make the Bible say something different in the English (unless of course they want the wool to be pulled over their eyes).
 
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