Is it Sin, if you don't know its wrong?

[d0c markus]

lol... hmm can i pick 2.. which one came first the chicken or the egg.. u cant have one without the other im off to eat with my pastor.. i will respond to your verse later..

till then
peace

 

[pentecostal girl]

Doc Markus,
I disagree with you, but I'll tell you why later. I have to go but I'll be back!!
God Bless

 

[1John5:3]

Hey, if you two are 20 and 18 years of age, I think you are to be "praised" for being spiritually minded enough to hang out here. God bless all of us as we study His Word.

 

[Bonhoffer]

The Law of Moses doesnt apply to Christians anymore, however it does give us some indication of what God disaproves of.

 

[pentecostal girl]

Hey, if you two are 20 and 18 years of age, I think you are to be "praised" for being spiritually minded enough to hang out here. God bless all of us as we study His Word.

I appreciate that. Thank YOu! May God keep blessing you over and over!

 

[1John5:3]

The Law of Moses doesnt apply to Christians anymore, however it does give us some indication of what God disaproves of.

Leviticus 19
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD .

doesn't apply anymore?

Deuteronomy 6
5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

doesn't apply anymore?

Exodus 20
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

doesn't apply anymore?


Exodus 20
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

doesn't apply anymore?

 

[d0c markus]

Hey, if you two are 20 and 18 years of age, I think you are to be "praised" for being spiritually minded enough to hang out here. God bless all of us as we study His Word.

Amen to that...

I got home later than i thought, so i gotta pack up my computer and goto bed.. If ya'll could pray that i have a safe ride (13hrs or so) to college i would appreciate that... I will get back to ya guys in about 2 days after i get settled.

In the Body of Christ
Mark

 

[Gamecock]

For an Ethics class i had to read some Thomas Aquinas and his theology says that if you dont know its a sin, then your innocent..

but then i was reading and found this verse:

LEV 5:17 "If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible. 18 He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven. 19 It is a guilt offering; he has been guilty of wrongdoing against the LORD."

Compared to Aquinas this is a blaring contradiction, Aquinas wrote alot to say one thing and its plain and simple in the bible.

But anyways whats your take on it, are you innocent if your unknowing?

Try Romans 1 on for size....

 

[VigoMedic]

We must be thankful that we serve a compassionate God who will not hold us responsible for our genuine ignorance. "Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity." Hebrews 5:2. However, if that ignorance has been the result of deliberate negligence of the principles of God, then we cannot expect the mercy of God. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." Hebrews 2:3.

Excellent post and an excellent point; I completely agree. I think that it is our human nature to oversimplify a lot of issues of faith, to include the issue of sin in ignorance. I find it hard to believe (and against the very nature of Christ) that our merciful God would hold against us sins of ignorance. I do, however, agree with previous posters that there are different types of ignorance; if we are "willfully ignorant" then we are going to be held responsible for our willful actions.

Again, I think that we are over-simplifying God to say that every issue such as this is "black and white" and we posses all the answers. A simple example of our complexity is the mentally ill. The fact that we have mentally ill people committing sin introduces a "grey area" to one's "black and white" belief of "sin is sin, and we are guilty and to be held responsible, even if we are genuinely ignorant". I cannot believe that God would hold them responsible. I agree with Thomas Aquinas in the following quote from an earlier post:

"If concupiscence were to destroy knowledge altogether, as happens with those whom concupiscence has rendered mad, it would follow that concupiscence would take voluntariness. And yet, properly speaking, it would not make the act involuntary, because in beings bereft of reason there is neither voluntary nor involuntary."

Let us be thankful that we serve a merciful and loving God!

Peace.

 

[d0c markus]

We must be thankful that we serve a compassionate God who will not hold us responsible for our genuine ignorance. "Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity." Hebrews 5:2. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." Hebrews 2:3.

Which is correct?
1) We sin because we are sinners
2) We are sinners because we sin

heb 5:2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. NIV

Heb 5:2 he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness. NASB more literal translation.

The verse doesnt support your claim either, you see this verse is dealing with the qualifications of a high preist in the Jewish system.. You can also apply this to a pastor in a sense, but there are more in depth instructions given to them in timothy.

The verse says we need to be able to have compassion on somone because we to are weak when it comes to sin. Something I dont think the pharisees were good at. Anyone ignorant or misguided generally thinks they are doing the right thing, well you can directly correlate this to Lev 5:17 as well. Unintentional sins are still sins, whether you know its a sin or not.

However, if that ignorance has been the result of deliberate negligence of the principles of God, then we cannot expect the mercy of God.

See above, and can I infer from this that if we intentionally sin against God in full knowledge we are not forgiven?

Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

The verse is dealing with salvation not deliberate or unintentional sin. If we ignore salvation announced by the lord himself as testified through his miracles we will not escape hell. Lev 5:17 still stands.

 

[d0c markus]

Try Romans 1 on for size....

I just did. It doesnt fit, got anything bigger for me?

On a side note, Paul is talking about how he is looking forward to coming to rome, and also he talks about those who go astray, and if you referring to v.32 which says "and although they know the ordinance of God..." does not justify sin ok when your ignorant of it. Because 2 years ago i knew the command of God yet i could have gave 2 hoots about it. It can apply to almost anybody.

Read the chapter again, and if i missed something could you point it out instead of leaving it ambiguous.

 

[d0c markus]

Doc Markus,
I disagree with you, but I'll tell you why later. I have to go but I'll be back!!
God Bless

please do.

 

[d0c markus]

Excellent post and an excellent point; I completely agree. I think that it is our human nature to oversimplify a lot of issues of faith, to include the issue of sin in ignorance. I find it hard to believe (and against the very nature of Christ) that our merciful God would hold against us sins of ignorance. I do, however, agree with previous posters that there are different types of ignorance; if we are "willfully ignorant" then we are going to be held responsible for our willful actions.

Again, I think that we are over-simplifying God to say that every issue such as this is "black and white" and we posses all the answers. A simple example of our complexity is the mentally ill. The fact that we have mentally ill people committing sin introduces a "grey area" to one's "black and white" belief of "sin is sin, and we are guilty and to be held responsible, even if we are genuinely ignorant". I cannot believe that God would hold them responsible. I agree with Thomas Aquinas in the following quote from an earlier post:

[/font]

Let us be thankful that we serve a merciful and loving God!

Peace.

Hmm, since Jesus did not abolish the law but came to fulfill it (matthew 5:17) and since Jesus is the word (John 1:1) it is totally not against his nature.

and yes, let us be thankful that we serve a merciful and loving God!

 

[d0c markus]

just keepin it fresh so those who posted can read and respond to me.....

 

[eldermike]

One thing to remember when comparing OT/NT. James for example was not speaking of ignorance of the law or any new law, but of ignorance of who we are in Christ. James said we are like those that look in a mirror and then turn away and forget what we just saw. The NT instructions are just that, instructions, they are to remind us of who we are, not what we should be. you don't strive to be a Christian, you die to become a Christian. Sin is sin, what James is talking about being counted against you is forgetting who you are in Christ. If you know who you are, you will be offended by sin.

 

[Terri]

Great post Eldermike!

RO 14:22 says that everything that does not come from faith is sin. So, unless you are living in perfect faith, you are sinning everytime you do something with doubt in your heart. Now for me, that would be a lot of sin, some of which I am not even aware of--but, it would still be sin!!

RO 14:22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

 

[pentecostal girl]

I just did. It doesnt fit, got anything bigger for me?

Doc Markus
That was cute! Anyway, I agree that a sin is a sin. I have a question, what if you went through your whole life as a dedicated christian and you did a few things, but you didn't know that it was a sin. Do you think that God would hold you against that sin that you didn't know was a sin?

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND cleanse us from all unrighteousness (unkown sin would pretty much be the definition of unrighteousness). It is beautiful in it's simplicity!

 

[KristiXP]

I got a speeding ticket even though I didn't know I was going 72 in a 50 zone. (that's KM) Ignorance was no excuse, although I wish it was. The first thing the officer said was, "Do you know how fast you were going?" I was hoping if I said, "No" he'd let me go...no such luck.

VERY good point

 

[d0c markus]

Doc Markus
That was cute! Anyway, I agree that a sin is a sin. I have a question, what if you went through your whole life as a dedicated christian and you did a few things, but you didn't know that it was a sin. Do you think that God would hold you against that sin that you didn't know was a sin?

see christ died so we wouldnt have to, hold it against you no, hold you responsible and accountible yes.. Early in 1 corinthians, it discusses your life tested by fire, anything not destroyed would earn you rewards. Like i said none of us can become completely sinless here, thats an instant transformation upon entering heaven, one day your body will be ressercted and perfected too. But sin here even something you didnt know was a sin will result in the loss of reward or so it would seem.

as for me i hope that helps but i must make my way to church..

In the Body of Christ
Mark