Is it right to pray to saints?

[MoNiCa4316]

This topic came up in another thread, which is closed now.

Do you think it's right or wrong to pray to saints? Why or why not? Let's discuss this peacefully and with respect for each others' views

I believe that although it's not required to pray to saints (or rather, ask for their prayers), there is nothing wrong with it. This was practiced in the early Church, and Christians have done this for hundreds of years...it only began to be considered 'wrong' quite recently..

Here is what some early Christians said about the intercession of the saints:

Cyril of Jerusalem


"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian


"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil


"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

there are lots of others as well

The saints are not dead, they are alive in heaven with God, and love us too and want us to be saved. It's very true that God hears everyone's prayers, but the Bible says that "the prayer of a righteous man avails much"...those in heaven are united with God and pray without distraction, so their prayers are very powerful...

God bless!

monica

 

[NoDoubt]

This topic came up in another thread, which is closed now.

Do you think it's right or wrong to pray to saints? Why or why not? Let's discuss this peacefully and with respect for each others' views

I believe that although it's not required to pray to saints (or rather, ask for their prayers), there is nothing wrong with it. This was practiced in the early Church, and Christians have done this for hundreds of years...it only began to be considered 'wrong' quite recently..

Here is what some early Christians said about the intercession of the saints:

Cyril of Jerusalem


"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian


"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil


"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

there are lots of others as well

The saints are not dead, they are alive in heaven with God, and love us too and want us to be saved. It's very true that God hears everyone's prayers, but the Bible says that "the prayer of a righteous man avails much"...those in heaven are united with God and pray without distraction, so their prayers are very powerful...

God bless!

monica

I just started a thread about saints!!! I'm sorry!

I think we did it simultaneously...

 

[mont974x4]

It's wrong. Communication between people on earth and people in the afterlife is never presented in a good light in Scripture.

We are to pray to the Father. That honor and that form of worship is for Him alone.


No where in Scripture do we have any proof that the saints in Heaven hear the saints on earth.

Believing that praying to the saints is right and effective would demand that we believe they are omnipresent....for example, someone in Toledo prays to Mary at the same time someone in Kiev prays to Mary....who does she hear?

The whole ideal attributes attributes and honors that are God's to people and that is never a good thing.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

In the other thread, before it was closed, HisKid1973 said:

Hi Sis.. Those are interesting quotes.. I just have a couple of comments...They say the saints pray, but do they really need to "pray" since they are in God's presence..

Hi, well the way I see it, prayer is just talking to God...when we'll be in heaven we'll "pray" too. I guess we just define the word differently.

And as they are observers they can contact the Lord directly without us contacting them...Since they are out of this realm, we would have to contact them via "prayer" only compared to contacting oher saints here in this rwealm...Does God "relay" the "prayers" to them or does he enable them to have His attributes..peace to you..Kim

I don't know for sure, but many people believe that the saints in heaven 'hear' us..they are not omniscient like God, of course, but a friend of mine once said it might work kinda like a 'telephone' God makes it all possible I guess. This is probably only true for those in heaven...not hell, or purgatory (for those who believe in purgatory). Again, we don't really know..
The saints in heaven are united with God and are 'one' with Him, so maybe that gives them special abilities that we don't have here.

Please keep in mind that praying to saints is very different from trying to 'contact spirits' (which is witchcraft!!!) because it is done within God's will and power. In the end, He decides everything.

peace

monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just started a thread about saints!!! I'm sorry!

I think we did it simultaneously...

oh..LOL!! I'm sorry too! well I guess we can always have two, lol...

 

[mont974x4]

I believe it is outside His will and it usurps His power, authority and rightful place. Witchcraft? That's debatable.

 

[NoDoubt]

I don't ask deceased people to pray for me.

They can't hear me.

It's against scripture.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

It's wrong. Communication between people on earth and people in the afterlife is never presented in a good light in Scripture.

We are to pray to the Father. That honor and that form of worship is for Him alone.


No where in Scripture do we have any proof that the saints in Heaven hear the saints on earth.

Believing that praying to the saints is right and effective would demand that we believe they are omnipresent....for example, someone in Toledo prays to Mary at the same time someone in Kiev prays to Mary....who does she hear?

The whole ideal attributes attributes and honors that are God's to people and that is never a good thing.

Mont, why do you think that early Christians believed in the intercession of the saints? Even as early as 200 AD..which was right after the Apostles. Probably those who were taught directly by the Apostles believed in this too.

It is wrong to 'pray' to the dead, so that is Scriptural...but the saints in heaven are alive, not dead. It's called 'the Communion of Saints'

I don't really support asking the saints for miracles, etc, because that is something only God can do...but it's not wrong to ask them to pray for us...in that way, all prayers still go to the Father in the end. It's just like asking your friends on earth to pray for you.

Concerning omnipresence...I don't think we know enough about heaven and its relation to this world to answer this question...we don't know how it's like there. Isn't heaven outside of time anyway? If so, that solves the problem

God bless

monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I believe it is outside His will and it usurps His power, authority and rightful place. Witchcraft? That's debatable.

But how is it different from asking your friends to pray for you? I think we'll both agree that this doesn't "usurp His power, authority, and rightful place".

peace

 

[NoDoubt]

Mont, why do you think that early Christians believed in the intercession of the saints? Even as early as 200 AD..which was right after the Apostles. Probably those who were taught directly by the Apostles believed in this too.

May I ask where you got this information? Thanks and God Bless you too.

 

[mont974x4]

There's a difference between asking a saint on earth to help bear your burdens and praying to a saint in Heaven.

The first, we have biblical support for. The second, IMO, is borderline necromancy and has no biblical support.


When Christ taught the apostles to pray, what did He say? Pray to the Father. This is a form of worship.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

May I ask where you got this information? Thanks and God Bless you too.

I googled 'early church and intercession of the saints', and came across a website with a quote by Origen:

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

This was in 233

There are many others I just haven't researched in detail...I'll try to look up more sources.

peace

monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Here's a website I found:

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a118.htm

Answering Objections to the Intercession of the Saints
by Jude Walker
This essay was excerpted from a letter I wrote to a man in Scotland who had written a rebuttal to an article published in a Catholic magazine by a friend of mine. The article had been forwarded to him by his sister who lives in England. The rebuttal was actually addressed to her, but she forwarded it to my friend, who elected not to respond due to the volume of mail that he was receiving. He did however allow me to write a response, a portion of which comprises this essay.
<B>

" ‘In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and "because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins" she offers her suffrages for them.’ Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective. "(​

​

</B>Lumen gentium 50; cf. 2 Macc 12:45. CCC Catechism 958)
​

You stated that Scripture expressly forbids communication between the living and the dead, and I agree. Since you neglected to cite any scripture to support this, I must assume that you are referring to Deuteronomy 18:11. (My search of Strong’s Comprehensive Concordance failed to turn up any others.) The context of this passage (Deut. 18:9-14,) is that Moses is warning the Israelites against pagan practices; divination, soothsaying, augury, sorcery, casting spells, consulting ghosts or spirits, and seeking oracles from the dead. I suppose that "consulting ghosts or spirits" could be construed as "praying to dead Saints," but as I searched for more scriptures that would help shore up your case, the incongruity of your argument became suddenly apparent.
Objection: The Saints are "Dead"
In John 11:26 Jesus said, "...and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die." All this talk of "praying to the dead" and "the dead praying for the living," when the people of whom we are speaking are not even dead ! Indeed, Jesus said in Luke 20:38, "Now He is not God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to Him." Now if God is not God of the dead, and if the Saints are no longer living, then is He no longer their God ? When you die, will God cease to be your God ?
If you will concede that the Saints are alive, is it reasonable then to suppose that these same Saints, who prayed for each other and for all Christians while on earth, would lose interest in us once they reach the kingdom of heaven? Jerome wrote in the fourth century:

"If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?"
​

Just as the Saints were once "in the flesh," so we are now. But in Christ, we are all part of the Mystical Body. Romans 12:4-5 says: "For as in one body we have many members, and all members do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another." Would you dare to say that when a Saint dies, he ceases to be a member of the Body of Christ? I don’t believe that any thinking Christian would. What then, would you believe their function to be?
The early Fathers of the Church unanimously taught the doctrine of the intercession of the Saints. Hilary, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom all wrote concerning the intercession of the Saints as early as the fourth century. John Chrysostom wrote:

"When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies... but to His friends, the martyrs, the Saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power."
​

Dominic, on his deathbed in 1221 said, "Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you more effectively than during my life."
It is clear that even by the early centuries of the Church, intercession of the Saints was a well-established, widely accepted doctrine; a doctrine that has endured nearly two millennia, and only within the last 500 years has been denied by any calling themselves Christians.
Objection: There is One Mediator
The Catholic Church points to I Timothy 2:5 to show that Jesus is the One Mediator, just as do those who would protest the intercessory prayers of Saints. Let us examine then, exactly what is being said here. I Timothy 2:5-6 says: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all." In order to put this verse in its proper context, let us look at other verses which discuss Jesus’ role as Mediator. Hebrews 9:15 says: "Therefore, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the old covenant." Also, in Hebrews 12:24, we find that we have come "...to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel."
All three verses make a direct reference to the shedding of Jesus’ blood to redeem us from sin. This clearly refers to Jesus as the One Mediator of a new covenant, who reconciled us to God by sacrificing His life on the cross in payment for our sins.
So you see, by praying to Mary and the Saints, the Church is not usurping the authority of Jesus as the One Mediator. On the contrary, the Church has this to say on the subject:

"Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness... [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped." (Lumen gentium 49; cf. I Tim. 2:5. CCC 956)
​

 

[mont974x4]

I think the only way the idea works is by playing word games with the words, like the quoted source in post #13 does.

 

[NoDoubt]

Should we pray to saints? No!

The Catechism admonishes members to pray to those who, because of their good works, have been declared by the church to be "saints:"

"The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives... They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world." Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)​

Define the word "saint." Catholicism teaches that a saint is one of a select few who, because of good works while alive, is declared a saint after death:

"By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors." Pg. 219, #828​

According to Scripture, however, anyone who is born again by faith in Christ is a saint. Paul wrote to all the saints (Christians) in Rome:

"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 1:7 ​

Many other verses express the same truth:

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" Ephesians 3:8 "...Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints," Jude 1:14
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Ephesians 4:11-12 ​

(See also Acts 9:13; 9:32; 9:41; 26:10; Romans 8:27; 12:13; 15:25; 15:26; 15:31; 16:2; 16:15; 1 Cor-inthians 6:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, plus dozens of other New Testament references.)

Why this doctrine? ​

In short, the scenario goes like this. Catholicism discarded the scriptural definition of a "saint" and devised a new one, then instructed members to pray to these unscriptural "saints."
The question is, why pray to anyone else when the God of the universe is in heaven waiting to hear and answer prayers?

Are "saints" intercessors?​

Supposedly, these so-called saints "intercede with the Father for us." But we have already learned that Jesus Christ is our only intercessor. Therefore, to suggest otherwise is but a man made tradition.
Here's another interesting Catechism quote concerning saints:

"Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ..." Pg. 249-250, #957​

According to the Catholic church, praying to saints brings people closer to Christ. However, you will not find this doctrine in Scripture either. It is another tradition of men that neither Jesus nor the Bible ever taught.
In fact, this practice of communing with the dead treads dangerously close to necromancy, another practice strongly condemned in the Bible. (See Deuteronomy 18:10-12.)

Why would the Catholic church rather have members pray to dead men than to the living, all-powerful, prayer-answering God? ​

Keep in mind that if these traditions of men are not true, then all your prayers to "saints" are but worthless chatter.
If you pray to God, though, you may claim many wonderful Biblical promises:

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16​

 

[MoNiCa4316]

We are interpreting Scripture differently here. Yes we're all saints because we all have the Holy Spirit living in us...but the reason the Catholic and EO churches canonize saints is so that we would have examples to follow. If they didn't do this, these people would simply be forgotten over time.

Another reason is because these Christians are a great witness to God's power within the Church:

"By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors." Pg. 219, #828​

I don't think that God supports individualism. It's not just 'me and God'. Christ prayed that we would all be one in Him! The Church is like a family...those who are in heaven are still part of it. ​

They are not 'mediators' in that we need them to get to God....! No one treats them as 'mediators'. We all know that we can pray to God directly. They are just part of the Church of Christ, that's all...and we honour their prayers because they are in the presence of God.​

peace​

monica​

 

[NoDoubt]

I don't think you understand the fact that we are not to talk to people who have died. They are not to be contacted. It is forbidden and it is unscriptural.

You say that the saints are alive. That's fine if you want to think that. But don't try to contact them. Leve them be. It is forbidden.

 

[Thekla]

In the Middle East and the Balkans, it is not unusual for Muslims to visit Monasterys to ask for the Virgin Mary to pray for them. Many Muslims have respect for Mary. Many healings, etc in this way have been effected and, as a result, many Muslims convert to Christianity in this way.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I don't think you understand the fact that we are not to talk to people who have died. They are not to be contacted. It is forbidden and it is unscriptural.

You say that the saints are alive. That's fine if you want to think that. But don't try to contact them. Leve them be. It is forbidden.

But do you really think that Christian writers and theologians (great saints in Christ) for 2000 years have been unable to interpret Scripture correctly, and it was just in the last few hundred years that some Christians have finally gotten it right?

The situation you refer to about contacting the dead for knowledge, as Saul did, is indeed forbidden. It has absolutely nothing to do with seeking the intercessions of those who are fully alive in Christ just because they are no longer in *this* world.


Mary

 

[E.C.]

I don't ask deceased people to pray for me.

They can't hear me.

It's against scripture.

With God all things are possible.

The saints have "finished the race", thus they are in Communion with God.

Why than, should those who are in Communion with God not be able to hear us? Why should those who are present with God in heaven not be able to hear us?

Just for kicks, where in the New Testament does it read "this is against Scripture"?