Is it really a choice?

[elephunky]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I do get what you are trying to say. I used to struggle with similar questions. What I came to understand is that the idea of spending eternity with God is as repulsive to some people as the idea of hell is to others. For someone who his or her desires and addictions more than God, the idea of eternal life with God is a pretty dreadful concept.

I have come to think of the choice, understood biblically, might more appropriately be stated as: being a slave to your own selfish desires or being a slave to God. Either way, we are all slaves to something. The choice comes in that we can choose our master.

I think that perhaps you are only understand half of my point. For a lot of non christians I know, its not that God is repulsive, for them its "God doesnt exist, why would I worship something that doesnt exist? There is no such thing as heaven and hell." If you have that mentality, then you have no reason to believe that you will go to hell for not following something that you believe doesnt exist.

It may percieved by us as a choice but its not really is it? No one wants to experience hell, those of us who believe it exists that is.

Plus their is all these different views on what guarantees us a place in heaven.

 

[Tzaousios]

I think that perhaps you are only understand half of my point. For a lot of non christians I know, its not that God is repulsive, for them its "God doesnt exist, why would I worship something that doesnt exist? There is no such thing as heaven and hell." If you have that mentality, then you have no reason to believe that you will go to hell for not following something that you believe doesnt exist.

Then it is a conflict of views, of course. A relativist would say that both are equally true for the one who "believes" it. Some relativists are not really relativist in their manner of thinking because they declare that those who hold an exclusivist view are wrong. A Christian believes that Christ alone is the way, truth, and the life and that the fool says in his heart there is no God.

It may percieved by us as a choice but its not really is it? No one wants to experience hell, those of us who believe it exists that is.

Just because a person denies in their own subjective manner that God and Hell exist, it does not mean that they do not exist in objective reality.

Again, as I mentioned in post #21, the idea of a true autonomous choice is foreign to the Bible. "Choice" and "Free Will" come down to us as an amalgamation of ancient and early modern philosophical concept. In the Biblical view the operation of the will cannot be divorced from either the fallen nature or divine grace.

Plus their is all these different views on what guarantees us a place in heaven.

But in the other "views" does the living God actually love his creation so much as to take on human flesh and suffer pain and death?

 

[Nadiine]

Just on the light side....

Ballou (UR preacher.. yes, there are UR preachers!) was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, “Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I’d still go to heaven.”
Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, “If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.”









Such is the love of God made so real to one who knows He won't send anyone to a fiery torment endlessly that he is free to want/desire to love and serve God... all the more.
​

Sorry, I could say that a Christian wouldn't entertain the
thought that everyone makes it into heaven becuz
it's written so clearly in scripture.

That doesn't support UR any imho.

& this really isn't about Christians, but witnessing this false doctrine
to the LOST who can and do live in willful sin who wouldn't
see any need to change or become born again if they
can continue their life as is.
​

 

[elephunky]

Just because a person denies in their own subjective manner that God and Hell exist, it does not mean that they do not exist in objective reality..

But in the other "views" does the living God actually love his creation so much as to take on human flesh and suffer pain and death?

Im not saying that because they believe it doesnt exist means that is doesnt exist.

Im talking about those who already believe, some people have different views on what a believer has to do to get into heaven.

 

[one11]

Im talking about those who already believe, some people have different views on what a believer has to do to get into heaven.

Well, some pious rituals are a matter of personal faith. As the Bible states, to them it's faith such as stated in Romans 14. As far as what I believe, I believe if we confess our sins, He is quick and just to forgive us our trespasses. Second, prayer for strength and guidance. Love God with all our being and love our neighbors as ourselves. And the sins of the fleshly nature we are to avoid as stated in Galatians 5.

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.


**************


Galatians 5


Life by the Spirit

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[elephunky]

Personally for me

Mark16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn't believe will be condemned.

 

[Tavita]

Sorry, I could say that a Christian wouldn't entertain the
thought that everyone makes it into heaven becuz
it's written so clearly in scripture.

That doesn't support UR any imho.

& this really isn't about Christians, but witnessing this false doctrine
to the LOST who can and do live in willful sin who wouldn't
see any need to change or become born again if they
can continue their life as is.
​

I expected this from you, Nadiine. Just lighten up a bit will ya.

Besides, when I believed in endless torment I never spoke of it to people who I witnessed to... (and some of them did become christians.. entering into service such as the Salvation Army, an organisation I was involved with for a few years). I think conviction of sin is something that should be left to the Holy Spirit. If they are 'born again' from above and listen to Him they will leave their old ways to follow His. I was taught from very early on that when a person became 'born again', it was not solely our witness that brought them in, but rather the convicting work of the Holy Spirit who was already working in their hearts. I know that when I came in the Lord never mentioned endless torment to me but just pointed out, gradually, as time went on, the areas of my life that I had to adjust to His commandments.

Our work is the ministry of reconciliation, to let people know they are already reconciled to God and they should simply appropriate it to their lives. The work has already been done and it's finished. Leave God's judgments to God.

The sinner is not redeemed because he repents, but he is called upon to repent because he has been redeemed.​

— A.P. Adams


As an addition... the doctrine of universal salvation is simply that... a doctrine of soteriology. We are to preach Christ, and Him crucified.

*My apologies to the OP for going off track.

 

[one11]

Personally for me

Mark16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn't believe will be condemned.

Yes, I believe that, too. BUT, if we have hatred, fractions, jealousy, fits of rage, these destroy not only ourselves but our marriages, family, friendships, and we may turn away from God because of the hurt we brought upon ourselves, even including alcohol or diseases from sexual immorality, etc...

Love is loving even when you are grumpy or in pain or stressed out from life, and love is saying I'm sorry and asking for forgiveness, as Jesus said forgive your brother 70 x 7 in one day if he sins against you. And love is letting people be a little grumpy when they are in serious pain or extremely stressed out; it's just called listening and letting someone vent, but not vent in a harmful way.

Also, all our good deeds are supposed to be in secret (although we know logically not all good deeds can be in secret -- so our good deeds to the poor and hungry need balance) and only God knows the motives of the heart.

 

[one11]

Personally for me

Mark16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever doesn't believe will be condemned.

Also, that benefits only us. Jesus asked us to do more.

 

[Rick Otto]

Anybody need their feet washed?

 

[ghs1994]

We are told that God wanted us to choose to follow him, to believe in him and to obey him...Then we are told that if we dont we will go to hell. Doesnt really sound like a choice to me.

Why then would it be called free choice and free will when there is a consequence to CHOOSING the other path?

Its like saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you will spend the rest of the week in detention.

I've asked myself this same question in the past.

I also remember how upset I get when the rules in my house are broken. When things aren't done the way I want. Can you relate to that?

There are consequences to breaking the rules. Rules are set in place for protection. When they're not followed, there are consequences.

You have a choice, but obviously one has benefits and the other doesn't.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Anybody need their feet washed?

Are you going to wash the feet of those who want it?

 

[Tavita]

You make it sound like they simply want license when you say "despite how they live". I don't think they are that consciously licentious. I think the case with people in general is more that that want to believe that that their sins "aren't that bad" and are "more easily forgiven" and are "outweighed by their goodness" or good works.

But you are absolutely right that it's about a false sense of security.

I find this equally true among those who believe in eternal torment.. that they want to believe their sins 'aren't that bad' and are 'more easily forgiven' etc. I've seen a ton on these boards who think once saved they can do as they like as their sins are covered. So, it's got nothing to do with UR. I see christians who believe in endless torment all around me living sinful lives. It's not the doctrine of ET or UR that brings new life... it's abiding in Christ and bearing fruit.

In fact, I ask if anyone knows of anyone who came into salvation believing in UR first and then lived very loose liberal lives, or if anyone knows any christian who once they believe in UR, start living licentious lives? Do you personally know of any? Or is it just a 'fear', an 'imagination of the mind' that leads you to think this will happen?

I'm not speaking of those who are Unitarian Universalists.. many of them don't believe in Christ as Lord and Savior to begin with.

 

[Rick Otto]

Do you personally know of any?

Only in other denominations, to speak of.

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you going to wash the feet of those who want it?

How bad do want it?
You're not gonna want fries with that, are ya?

 

[Nadiine]

Anybody need their feet washed?

I won't even take a pedicure, so . . . no thanks

 

[Nadiine]

I expected this from you, Nadiine. Just lighten up a bit will ya.

Besides, when I believed in endless torment I never spoke of it to people who I witnessed to... (and some of them did become christians.. entering into service such as the Salvation Army, an organisation I was involved with for a few years). I think conviction of sin is something that should be left to the Holy Spirit. If they are 'born again' from above and listen to Him they will leave their old ways to follow His. I was taught from very early on that when a person became 'born again', it was not solely our witness that brought them in, but rather the convicting work of the Holy Spirit who was already working in their hearts. I know that when I came in the Lord never mentioned endless torment to me but just pointed out, gradually, as time went on, the areas of my life that I had to adjust to His commandments.

Our work is the ministry of reconciliation, to let people know they are already reconciled to God and they should simply appropriate it to their lives. The work has already been done and it's finished. Leave God's judgments to God.

The sinner is not redeemed because he repents, but he is called upon to repent because he has been redeemed.
​

— A.P. Adams


As an addition... the doctrine of universal salvation is simply that... a doctrine of soteriology. We are to preach Christ, and Him crucified.

*My apologies to the OP for going off track.

Well I'm sorry, it's hard to "lighten up" with destructive teachings being promoted that negate God's warnings.

I'd also add that people are NOT "reconciled" to God already - taking
a good look around this world that's completely resistant and irreverant to
God is evidence enough.
It's also not biblical when we know God tells us that our flesh is
naturally at enmity with Him and in our natural state, we are
defiant - not reconciled.

Anyways, yes we are to preach Christ - but not to negate what
He clearly teaches in other doctrines in the process.

Mat. 25.
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . .
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Nadiine]

I find this equally true among those who believe in eternal torment.. that they want to believe their sins 'aren't that bad' and are 'more easily forgiven' etc. I've seen a ton on these boards who think once saved they can do as they like as their sins are covered. So, it's got nothing to do with UR. I see christians who believe in endless torment all around me living sinful lives. It's not the doctrine of ET or UR that brings new life... it's abiding in Christ and bearing fruit.

In fact, I ask if anyone knows of anyone who came into salvation believing in UR first and then lived very loose liberal lives, or if anyone knows any christian who once they believe in UR, start living licentious lives? Do you personally know of any? Or is it just a 'fear', an 'imagination of the mind' that leads you to think this will happen?

I'm not speaking of those who are Unitarian Universalists.. many of them don't believe in Christ as Lord and Savior to begin with.

So ONLY UR's are obedient to God once saved?

If Christians are living in sin regularly, there's a good chance that
their fruit is displaying their real heart - maybe they make claims
but aren't genuinely born again. (as. Matt. 7:21-23 explains)

& lets use some logic here, if people who DO believe in eternal
condemnation are living in sin, doesn't that go to show you that
it doesn't promote "obedience out of fear alone"?
If they feared it so much, they wouldn't be playing with sin
regularly.

That does more to prove people's trampling of God's grace -
which UR promotes.

 

[Tavita]

I'd also add that people are NOT "reconciled" to God already - taking
a good look around this world that's completely resistant and irreverant to
God is evidence enough.
It's also not biblical when we know God tells us that our flesh is
naturally at enmity with Him and in our natural state, we are
defiant - not reconciled.

So now you want to negate what Christ accomplished on the cross?

He said 'It is finished'... HIS work is finished. He IS the Redeemer of all mankind.

It may not 'appear' that He has redeemed all mankind already, but that was is His work on the cross.. that's what we must have faith in... that is the point of being given the ministry of reconciliation.. to go out into the world and let them KNOW they ARE redeemed.

Of course our 'flesh' is at emnity with God... and that part of us that is still in the flesh is still at enmity with Him... until we DIE to the flesh that is within us.

From HIS point of view.. everyone was redeemed by His sacrifice. A study of the law of redemption, the peace offerings, the sin offerings, the trespass offerings, the meal offerings, the burnt offerings, etc, would show you what His work entailed for mankind... all mankind... ALL men are lost.

If you want to say that man's freewill negates what He has done, then your God is not all powerful and all loving. Jesus failed miserably because He could not get past man's will.

Mat. 25.
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; . . . .
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As pointed out in other threads, condemnation does not equate endless torment.

 

[Tavita]

So ONLY UR's are obedient to God once saved?

I didn't say that. I was responding to people saying that UR's have a false sense of security and are apt to sin more readily.

If Christians are living in sin regularly, there's a good chance that
their fruit is displaying their real heart - maybe they make claims
but aren't genuinely born again. (as. Matt. 7:21-23 explains)

That's true of all christians, whether they believe in eternal torment or not. But then again, I know of many christians (whether they believe in UR or not) who struggle through periods of sin, sometimes for many years, and yet they really are born again believers. Sometimes the fire of God's Holy Spirit takes time in dealing with sin in a christian's life.

& lets use some logic here, if people who DO believe in eternal
condemnation are living in sin, doesn't that go to show you that
it doesn't promote "obedience out of fear alone"?
If they feared it so much, they wouldn't be playing with sin
regularly.

Well yes, Nadiine.

That does more to prove people's trampling of God's grace -
which UR promotes.

I don't understand this statement, especially after the last one. What's the trampling of God's grace by those who promote endless torment got to do with UR?

Could you also tell me where the evidence is that UR promotes a sinful lifestyle?