Is it really a choice?

[Rick Otto]

quote=Nadiine; Well God put night shade on earth for a purpose too; it doesn't mean
we smoke, chew or eat it. . .

Same thing with legalists & heretics...

& I don't think we want to take this thread into more side issues
on pharmakia (drug use) which is forbidden.

The list of forbiddens is exhausting, I agree.

The point of the image was just to show a hippy liberal Jesus that's
all kool with anybody's sins and smiles at all the evil going on down
here; in fact, He enjoys it Himself and can't wait to get them in
the pearly gates.

Yeah, I knew that. I could tell by the murder & beastiality in the eyes.

 

[dies-l]

The biggest issue that I have with UR is that it seems to me to deny anything resembling choice. It assumes that all people want or should want to spend eternity with God, and then it seeks to read into Scripture the idea that God is somehow going to bring that result about for all people. Traditional Christian teaching, on the other hand, accepts that not all people like God and want to be stuck haning out with Him forever. God, being merciful and graceful, allows us to make our choices, and if some of choose to reject Him, even though I believe it hurts to do so, He allows people to make that choice. Those of us who believe that God is the source of all that is good in the world see the idea of Hell as eternal torment. But, for a person who truly despises God, I am not sure which is worse: spending eternity with God or spending eternity apart from Him. True freedom requires that we have the ability to make even choices such as these, and I see nothing in Scripture to suggest that we do not have that freedom. I cannot see how UR can be reconciled with this view.

 

[Tavita]

There's some speculation that "calamus" was what we call "cannabis" & was used in incense, not bongs - so the picture is... unscripturalin that sense, at least.
lol
God put entheogenic plants on earth for a purpose, I assume.
Nice to see a picture of Jesus smiling, for a change.

Ha! I thought He was holding a nice looking bottle of Italian vino!

I guess that shows my limited knowledge of drug taking.

 

[Tavita]

I think the same can be said of you couldn't it?

That would be true if I hadn't spent over fifty years or more believing in eternal torment and freewill. I already knew what it was like to believe it and what I believed... not nice.

 

[Tavita]

The biggest issue that I have with UR is that it seems to me to deny anything resembling choice. It assumes that all people want or should want to spend eternity with God, and then it seeks to read into Scripture the idea that God is somehow going to bring that result about for all people. Traditional Christian teaching, on the other hand, accepts that not all people like God and want to be stuck haning out with Him forever. God, being merciful and graceful, allows us to make our choices, and if some of choose to reject Him, even though I believe it hurts to do so, He allows people to make that choice. Those of us who believe that God is the source of all that is good in the world see the idea of Hell as eternal torment. But, for a person who truly despises God, I am not sure which is worse: spending eternity with God or spending eternity apart from Him. True freedom requires that we have the ability to make even choices such as these, and I see nothing in Scripture to suggest that we do not have that freedom. I cannot see how UR can be reconciled with this view.

Yes, most UR's don't believe in Freewill, but then there are some that do.

It doesn't make us robots to believe there is no freewill, it makes us clay.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The biggest issue that I have with UR is that it seems to me to deny anything resembling choice. It assumes that all people want or should want to spend eternity with God, and then it seeks to read into Scripture the idea that God is somehow going to bring that result about for all people. Traditional Christian teaching, on the other hand, accepts that not all people like God and want to be stuck haning out with Him forever. God, being merciful and graceful, allows us to make our choices, and if some of choose to reject Him, even though I believe it hurts to do so, He allows people to make that choice. Those of us who believe that God is the source of all that is good in the world see the idea of Hell as eternal torment. But, for a person who truly despises God, I am not sure which is worse: spending eternity with God or spending eternity apart from Him. True freedom requires that we have the ability to make even choices such as these, and I see nothing in Scripture to suggest that we do not have that freedom. I cannot see how UR can be reconciled with this view.

My Christian Thoughts teacher said something very interesting and what you said reminded me of that. He said (and I am paraphrasing) Universalist believe that some people will be forced to go to heaven kicking and screaming.

 

[dies-l]

Yes, most UR's don't believe in Freewill, but then there are some that do.

It doesn't make us robots to believe there is no freewill, it makes us clay.

I am interested, then, how do you deal with the problem of evil? Were events like the holocaust planned and orchestrated through God through people that had no choice but to follow His will in carrying out such atrocities? If so, that seems like a very cruel and unloving God.

Perhaps, I am misunderstanding, but, without the element of free will, I personally have trouble reconciling the reality of all of the evil in the world with a kind and loving God.

 

[Tavita]

My Christian Thoughts teacher said something very interesting and what you said reminded me of that. He said (and I am paraphrasing) Universalist believe that some people will be forced to go to heaven kicking and screaming.

Do you personally believe your teacher?

Rom 14:11 (NASB) For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

As you can see by these scriptures, no-one is forced.

 

[Tavita]

I am interested, then, how do you deal with the problem of evil? Were events like the holocaust planned and orchestrated through God through people that had no choice but to follow His will in carrying out such atrocities? If so, that seems like a very cruel and unloving God.

Perhaps, I am misunderstanding, but, without the element of free will, I personally have trouble reconciling the reality of all of the evil in the world with a kind and loving God.

Well, like a Calvinist, I believe that God calls the elect in this age. But as I said there are UR's who do believe in freewill. However, there a many Christians here in CF who don't believe in freewill, but are not UR.

As to the problem of evil, I have some thoughts, but there's way too much any person could possibly understand. I don't think I should give my insignificant little thoughts regarding it, I'd probably step on more toes.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'd probably step on more toes.

Then I offer you mine. After all, it's part of learning to dance.

 

[Tavita]

After all, it's part of learning to dance.

LOL! I like that!

 

[disciplesays]

In God is life. He holds it all together and he is our breath. You may choose to walk away from that breath and then stop breathing. This is the choice. He allows us to make it if we want to.
That is what we all did. We all have sinned and all have decided to cut off our relationship with God who sustains our lives.

Perhaps it is your understanding. The punishment we receive is just the only outcome of our own choice. There is no other option.

Shalom

 

[Nadiine]

.

 

[Nadiine]

That would be true if I hadn't spent over fifty years or more believing in eternal torment and freewill. I already knew what it was like to believe it and what I believed... not nice.

And that changed................ what exactly?

No it's NOT "nice", but neither is alot in the Bible huh?

God punished Israel to the point where they canniblized their own
offspring.
Starving children & genocide isn't nice, but you see God allowing people
today to die in hunger and get wiped out by evil people...
God struck people dead too; not "nice" either.
Lots of not so nice things are true about God (that He does or allows)
and there's a just reason for all of them.

The truth is, God isn't what people create Him to be, He is who
He is. Justice, wrath, love, righteousness/holiness.
He's many things combined. Instead, people recreate a god to
their liking & decide to worship that one.

His Love and justice/wrath work together in harmony -
and MOST people forget His absolute hatred of evil along the way.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Do you personally believe your teacher?

Rom 14:11 (NASB) For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.


Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

As you can see by these scriptures, no-one is forced.

I don't believe in Universalism. And I was saying that was my teacher's take on that concept.

I find it funny that you found all those verse but you forget this one...
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

[Nadiine]

Do you personally believe your teacher?

Rom 14:11 (NASB) For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

As you can see by these scriptures, no-one is forced.

Again this verse is misinterpreted w/ UR spin.

All who reject God will meet Him at judgment day as God goes
over their lifetime of thoughts, motives, words and actions.
They WILL BOW out of sheer fright or pain or guilt or whatever.
OR God will make them bow -
either way, forcing one to bow doesn't make someone saved anymore
than a person who says a prayer "to God" is saved.
What is Salvation? FAITH.
These people didn't rely on their FAITH, they're literally seeing the
consequence of God's judgment and God is PROVEN to them visibly.

Did you notice that angels don't have "s alvation" like people do?
Angels SEE GOD every day

But notice where it says they bow FROM:
Philippians 2:9-11
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


So we can see they are in 2 different places.
(see Mat. 25; they're put in separate places eternally).

Would you care to show us where and when the "lost" get taken out of
their punishment and reunited with those in heaven?
We've asked for these passages several times in UR debates and
never got them.

It's CENTRAL to your doctrine, so it should be in Revelation when we're given the chronological order of what happens to the living
and dead at judgment and after judgment.

We SHOULD read where those punished in hell (which shouldn't be
occurring since Christ PAID for their sins) are removed once they
repent (and we also don't see where they repent either).
Instead, we see neither happening - and, the scripture ENDS all
detail once they are thrown into the lake of fire.
No more to be seen or heard from in there. Yet you like
that they all repent and get back out to be joined with the
saints in heaven.
???

 

[Tavita]

Again this verse is misinterpreted w/ UR spin.

All who reject God will meet Him at judgment day as God goes
over their lifetime of thoughts, motives, words and actions.
They WILL BOW out of sheer fright or pain or guilt or whatever.
OR God will make them bow -
either way, forcing one to bow doesn't make someone saved anymore
than a person who says a prayer "to God" is saved.
What is Salvation? FAITH.
These people didn't rely on their FAITH, they're literally seeing the
consequence of God's judgment and God is PROVEN to them visibly.

Did you notice that angels don't have "s alvation" like people do?
Angels SEE GOD every day

But notice where it says they bow FROM:
Philippians 2:9-11
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


So we can see they are in 2 different places.
(see Mat. 25; they're put in separate places eternally).

Would you care to show us where and when the "lost" get taken out of
their punishment and reunited with those in heaven?
We've asked for these passages several times in UR debates and
never got them.

It's CENTRAL to your doctrine, so it should be in Revelation when we're given the chronological order of what happens to the living
and dead at judgment and after judgment.

We SHOULD read where those punished in hell (which shouldn't be
occurring since Christ PAID for their sins) are removed once they
repent (and we also don't see where they repent either).
Instead, we see neither happening - and, the scripture ENDS all
detail once they are thrown into the lake of fire.
No more to be seen or heard from in there. Yet you like
that they all repent and get back out to be joined with the
saints in heaven.
???

I like your spin on people bowing the knee out of all these different locations. I really don't care WHERE they are, they are still professing Christ as Lord and Savior.

Let's take a look at those verses about bowing the knee and confession Jesus Christ as Lord again...

Rom 14:11 (NASB) For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Mat 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

From Thayer's..
1843 ἐξομολογέω
confess
Meaning:
1) to confess
2) to profess
2a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
2b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
2c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage

*Doesn't sound like anyone being put under the thumb and *forced* to confess to me, does it you?


δόξα
glory
doxa
dox'-ah
From the base of G1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literally or figuratively, objectively or subjectively): - dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship.

Here is a verse that shows that not all whom saith unto him Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So you believe that all these people make an empty confession of "Lord, Lord" which is SIN... to the glory of God the Father? To the GLORY of His Name?

Rom 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

You would have God sinning now?

You believe that God, who has never *forced* anyone to do anything, all of a sudden changes, gets His feelings hurt because these people didn't receive Christ before they died, gets enraged, MAKES them bow the knee before throwing them into some terrible place of torment? This sounds like something Hitler would do. So God allows all those Jews to go through the Holocaust, then after death is so angry He throws them into eternal torment as well? And you don't think this makes Him worse than Hitler? What sort of justice is this? I'm appalled by this view of God.

1Co 13:5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,

Would you care to show us where and when the "lost" get taken out of
their punishment and reunited with those in heaven?
We've asked for these passages several times in UR debates and
never got them.

It's CENTRAL to your doctrine, so it should be in Revelation when we're given the chronological order of what happens to the living
and dead at judgment and after judgment.

You read Revelation literally, like a book only giving time sequences. It is a book to show how things will pan out but more importantly it is the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to you personally. It's a book meant to reveal Christ to you and in you.

There have been countless interpretations of Revelation trying to work out the time sequences. We do not know how it will all work out, no-one does. For you to demand that of me is ludicrous. I only go by what I've been given and the promises He makes, and He has revealed His will that ALL mankind will be saved. If you don't believe me, go look for yourself.

* Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

שׁבע
shâba‛
swear
shaw-bah'
A primitive root; properly to be complete, but used only as a denominative from H7651; to seven oneself, that is, swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times): - adjure, charge (by an oath, with an oath), feed to the full [by mistake for H7646], take an oath, X straitly, (cause to, make to) swear.

 

[elephunky]

I wasnt going to ask in the risk of derailing the thread, but oh wait thats already happened.

What are the list of the "forbiddens"?

Also, I dont think there is anything wrong with taking drugs, its in the manner you do it and the reasons you do it.

 

[Nadiine]

I wasnt going to ask in the risk of derailing the thread, but oh wait thats already happened.

What are the list of the "forbiddens"?

Also, I dont think there is anything wrong with taking drugs, its in the manner you do it and the reasons you do it.

I'm not going to argue drug use which any Christian should have an
inner conscience against.
But Luke 21:34 directly teaches that mind altering substance is
forbidden.

Here's some links if you care to find out why it's not of God.

http://www.letusreason.org/Curren10.htm

I'm not pentecostal at all, but this man is a majorly powerful teacher
who I value greatly for his knowledge in ancient history/custom
and Greek/Hebrew information. He's a wealth of information

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g8ckC78avY

 

[Nadiine]

I like your spin on people bowing the knee out of all these different locations. I really don't care WHERE they are, they are still professing Christ as Lord and Savior.

They aren't being saved there!
REPENTANCE and acceptance thru FAITH are "salvation" Tavita.

What you're seeing are people who have had God PROVEN and
have no choice but to do this.
Confessing who He is once you have Him in front of you at a
judgment seat is hardly salvation & repentance.

Many bowed to Caesar - was he their God, did they get saved by him & did they ALL like him? no.
Homage (esp. forced) is not salvation and esp. when it's demanded of each soul to
glorify God (which is the purpose man is created in the first
place - for God's glory & worship).

That isn't salvation which is thru FAITH. (the evidence of
things not seen). Here they stand at judgment being
sent to hell (lake of fire) eternally, I think they might
bow and confess who God is at that point maybe to try to
save their necks.
Many may not choose to at all.

But they aren't all WITH GOD in the same place
bowing the knee & admitting who He is to His glory.
By the way, apologists have noted that it was customary
after a battle when they took prisoners to make them
bow before the king.
It proves nothing, but it's an interesting parallel.