Is it really a choice?

[Zebra1552]

Rom 3:11 No one understands. No one searches for God.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.

Rom 11:32 For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Your first verse, if taken literally, is contradicted by persons like David, Jesus, Peter, etc. Your second verse is talking about God choosing us and says nothing about whether or not we choose God as well. Nor do any of your other verses.

You have not responded to the other points of my previous post. Are you then conceding them?

 

[Zecryphon]

Your first verse, if taken literally, is contradicted by persons like David, Jesus, Peter, etc. Your second verse is talking about God choosing us and says nothing about whether or not we choose God as well. Nor do any of your other verses.

You have not responded to the other points of my previous post. Are you then conceding them?

John 6:44 specifically states that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

This means that no one has the ability to choose God. Ephesians 2:1-10 hurts you as well, specifically verses1, 4, 5, 8 & 9, where it says we are dead in our trespasses and it is that God who gives the gift of faith, nowhere in there is it mentioned that man does something to merit this gift or contribute to it in any way, because after all what can a dead man do to contribute to his salvation? In fact, it says you can do nothing, that you can not contribute in any way to your salvation, so that you may not boast (my paraphrase).

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:29-30 also argues against man having a choice and shows that salvation is God's work beginning to end.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The apostles also did not choose to follow Jesus, Jesus went to them, like a shepherd going after his lost sheep, and said follow me. They did not search Jesus out, He searched for them. Show me some instances in the Bible where someone made a free-will choice to accept the gift of salvation. I can't think of any instance where God did not act first.

 

[Nadiine]

How can you agree when earlier in this thread you said it IS a choice? You can't have it both ways, either it is a choice or it isn't. I say it isn't. The impression I got from that post was that you believe it's a choice to reject God's grace. Remember, by the time you have a "choice" to make, which you never really do, God has already acted in your life and given you the gift of faith. You have only one nature prior to regeneration, the sinful nature. And all the sinful nature knows how to do is reject the things of God. So there is no choice when someone rejects, all they're doing is acting from the one nature.

As far as people thinking I'm promoting Calvinism, that's because most people think there's only two schools of thought on this whole salvation thing, Calvinism and Arminianism. They forget that Luther preceded Calvin and was teaching that there is no choice before Calvin ever came onto the scene. Plus if anyone ever accuses a Lutheran of being a Calvinist, they need to do some research into what the Lutherans believe, teach and confess.

What I meant in that post was to say that I wasn't moving into a
Calvin/Arminian debate, but taking the approach of bypassing
that to scrutinize the claim itself for what it is in their own
viewpoint.
Aside from who saved whom in reality, I'm presupposing her position is true that we DO have all the choice in our salvation,
so based on that theory, is it CHOICE to follow or not?

I say yes it is choice - it's our choice in knowing the consequences
of something, to do what we will do.
If someone told me that if I stole something, I'd have my hand
cut off, you better believe I wouldn't steal something.
But other people might think they can get away with it or that
it won't happen and they'll steal anyways.

To get caught and have their hand removed would hardly make it
"no choice" of their own in the actions they took.
The OP is basically surmizing that becuz the penalty is SO harsh, then it's not choice when that's false. Mainly becuz we know SO many people
who do reject Christianity when they DO know about the doctrines
of hell and eternal punishment.

I was merely taking that approach to the discussion, bypassing the
method God uses to save.

& I have always believed that while God draws us, calls & chooses
us (based on His foreknowledge), He enables us to respond to that call since we're spiritually dead.
I do believe there IS some accountability on our part to follow or not

 

[Zebra1552]

John 6:44 specifically states that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

This means that no one has the ability to choose God. Ephesians 2:1-10 hurts you as well, specifically verses1, 4, 5, 8 & 9, where it says we are dead in our trespasses and it is that God who gives the gift of faith, nowhere in there is it mentioned that man does something to merit this gift or contribute to it in any way, because after all what can a dead man do to contribute to his salvation? In fact, it says you can do nothing, that you can not contribute in any way to your salvation, so that you may not boast (my paraphrase).

That is incorrect. It means we can't choose God before God chooses us. There is nothing to contradict the idea that we choose God after God chooses us. And by the way, your second part, (bolded) is wrong:
Rev 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

We do indeed have a part. We need to repent, overcome, and abide at least.

Romans 8:29-30 also argues against man having a choice and shows that salvation is God's work beginning to end.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

That does not say anything about us choosing God after we choose him.

The apostles also did not choose to follow Jesus, Jesus went to them, like a shepherd going after his lost sheep, and said follow me. They did not search Jesus out, He searched for them. Show me some instances in the Bible where someone made a free-will choice to accept the gift of salvation. I can't think of any instance where God did not act first.

Can you think of any verses in the Bible where man did not act second?

 

[Zecryphon]

That is incorrect. It means we can't choose God before God chooses us. There is nothing to contradict the idea that we choose God after God chooses us. And by the way, your second part, (bolded) is wrong:
Rev 21:7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

We do indeed have a part. We need to repent, overcome, and abide at least.


That does not say anything about us choosing God after we choose him.


Can you think of any verses in the Bible where man did not act second?

It is NOT incorrect. The verses you're quoting from John are written to those who are already saved, they are not pre-salvation verses. And the verse you quote from Revelation is a future happening that applies to the saved, not to the unsaved, since the verses before it talk about a new heaven and a new earth, which takes place after the judgment of the wicked.

The people who say that we have freewill when it comes to salvation do not believe that God acts first. They believe that whether or not they are saved depends wholly upon what they choose. They have a choice before them, because they have freewill. In their mindset God can only act after they have chosen. But they won't come right out and say that, but take what they say to it's logical conclusion and that's what you end up with.

It seems you and I are in agreement. But I still take issue with the word "choice" used after God has acted because it still makes it sound that unless we do something God can not save us, that is not true. God has already given you faith, by the time you have to make a "choice". What everyone calls choice is really better termed as a response. Those whom God has called and justified and glorified responded in repentance, those who did not respond in repentance will end up in Hell. The word "choice" confuses this matter greatly because it suggests that until we do something, God can not save us. It seems that you and I are in agreement about the fact that in order for their to be salvation God must act first. He did when He sent His Son to die on a cross for our sins, and He continues to act by drawing people to the Son so that they may be saved.

 

[Zecryphon]

What I meant in that post was to say that I wasn't moving into a
Calvin/Arminian debate, but taking the approach of bypassing
that to scrutinize the claim itself for what it is in their own
viewpoint.
Aside from who saved whom in reality, I'm presupposing her position is true that we DO have all the choice in our salvation,
so based on that theory, is it CHOICE to follow or not?

I say yes it is choice - it's our choice in knowing the consequences
of something, to do what we will do.
If someone told me that if I stole something, I'd have my hand
cut off, you better believe I wouldn't steal something.
But other people might think they can get away with it or that
it won't happen and they'll steal anyways.

To get caught and have their hand removed would hardly make it
"no choice" of their own in the actions they took.
The OP is basically surmizing that becuz the penalty is SO harsh, then it's not choice when that's false. Mainly becuz we know SO many people
who do reject Christianity when they DO know about the doctrines
of hell and eternal punishment.

I was merely taking that approach to the discussion, bypassing the
method God uses to save.

& I have always believed that while God draws us, calls & chooses
us (based on His foreknowledge), He enables us to respond to that call since we're spiritually dead.
I do believe there IS some accountability on our part to follow or not

Why would you presuppose her position is true, when scripture clearly blows it out of the water and proves it to be a false teaching? To avoid a Calvinist/Arminian debate? That's easy to do when you're neither Calvinist or Arminian and realize that those are not the only two schools of thought on the issue of salvation. Her position is supported by no scripture, all she has in her OP is repeated hearsay. Nowhere does she support anything she says with scripture, so she's most likely reiterating what her pastor has said in his sermons and if that is the case and she's not leaving anything out or twisting anything he has said, then her pastor is teaching falsely.

But given the fact that she doesn't go to church, she's probably piecing this theology together from what she's read on this board. And in that case, then yes, I believe there are many who have told her it is a choice. And the choice is Christ if you wanna go to Heaven or not Christ if you wanna go to Hell.

 

[Nadiine]

It is NOT incorrect. The verses you're quoting from John are written to those who are already saved, they are not pre-salvation verses. And the verse you quote from Revelation is a future happening that applies to the saved, not to the unsaved, since the verses before it talk about a new heaven and a new earth, which takes place after the judgment of the wicked.

The people who say that we have freewill when it comes to salvation do not believe that God acts first. They believe that whether or not they are saved depends wholly upon what they choose. They have a choice before them, because they have freewill. In their mindset God can only act after they have chosen. But they won't come right out and say that, but take what they say to it's logical conclusion and that's what you end up with.

It seems you and I are in agreement. But I still take issue with the word "choice" used after God has acted because it still makes it sound that unless we do something God can not save us, that is not true. God has already given you faith, by the time you have to make a "choice". What everyone calls choice is really better termed as a response. Those whom God has called and justified and glorified responded in repentance, those who did not respond in repentance will end up in Hell. The word "choice" confuses this matter greatly because it suggests that until we do something, God can not save us. It seems that you and I are in agreement about the fact that in order for their to be salvation God must act first. He did when He sent His Son to die on a cross for our sins, and He continues to act by drawing people to the Son so that they may be saved.

That's what I agree with. Not the "hyper" Calvinism where God created
people to be destroyed in the lake of fire eternally and others to
enjoy heaven and there's nothing they can do about it when God
has decided.

Response is a different word from choice - but I think it can still
convey a similar meaning. The word "Choice" does seem to muddy the water in what people understand about salvation.
And I agree, way too many think it's all about what they did to
choose God.
It would be nice to have this clarified by Pastors (among other things
they neglect)

 

[Zebra1552]

It is NOT incorrect. The people who say that we have freewill when it comes to salvation do not believe that God acts first. They believe that whether or not they are saved depends wholly upon what they choose. They have a choice before them, because they have freewill. In their mindset God can only act after they have chosen. But they won't come right out and say that, but take what they say to it's logical conclusion and that's what you end up with.

Excuse me, but who says that I'm one of those people? I'm a predestifreewaillianist. Not a Calvinist, not an Armineanist.

It seems you and I are in agreement. But I still take issue with the word "choice" used after God has acted because it still makes it sound that unless we do something God can not save us, that is not true.

It is true. I just provided two verses for you that tell you it is true. Do you want me to post more?

God has already given you faith, by the time you have to make a "choice".

Where in the Bible does it say that God gives faith? Or does God give the mindset and belief required for faith? Is faith our response, our choice after God chooses us?

What everyone calls choice is really better termed as a response.

That's still a choice. We choose to do something about it or we choose not to do something about it.

Those whom God has called and justified and glorified responded in repentance, those who did not respond in repentance will end up in Hell. The word "choice" confuses this matter greatly because it suggest that until we do something, God can not save us and it seems that you and I are in agreement upon the fact that in order for their to be salvation God must act first. He did when He sent His Son to die on a cross for our sins, and He continues to act by drawing people to the Son so that they may be saved.

These people must also repent, abide, and persevere. It's not a free ride.

 

[Nadiine]

Why would you presuppose her position is true, when scripture clearly blows it out of the water and proves it to be a false teaching? To avoid a Calvinist/Arminian debate? That's easy to do when you're neither Calvinist or Arminian and realize that those are not the only two schools of thought on the issue of salvation. Her position is supported by no scripture, all she has in her OP is repeated hearsay. Nowhere does she support anything she says with scripture, so she's most likely reiterating what her pastor has said in his sermons and if that is the case and she's not leaving anything out or twisting anything he has said, then her pastor is teaching falsely.

But given the fact that she doesn't go to church, she's probably piecing this theology together from what she's read on this board. And in that case, then yes, I believe there are many who have told her it is a choice. And the choice is Christ if you wanna go to Heaven or not Christ if you wanna go to Hell.

Other people were already approaching this with the Calvinist/Arminian
discussion which I don't think is the angle she was looking for.
(there's so many of these topics on the boards already).

I think her viewpoint can be refuted by using reasoning
that dismisses it pretty well whether or not it's biblically accurate
(God's method of saving).
I would think that tackling the viewpoint itself might help
first before moving to accepting either theological position.
?
But I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong approach -
just a different one.

 

[Zecryphon]

[/font][/size][/color]Excuse me, but who says that I'm one of those people? I'm a predestifreewaillianist. Not a Calvinist, not an Armineanist.


It is true. I just provided two verses for you that tell you it is true. Do you want me to post more?


Where in the Bible does it say that God gives faith? Or does God give the mindset and belief required for faith? Is faith our response, our choice after God chooses us?


That's still a choice. We choose to do something about it or we choose not to do something about it.


These people must also repent, abide, and persevere. It's not a free ride.

As a Lutheran I will never promote either Calvinism or Arminianism, so I'm not sure what your issue with me is. I have not labeled you as anything but have simply responded to your posts.

You did not post two verses that support your position. You posted one verse that speaks to those who are already saved and was written to those who are already saved and the other verse has yet to take place, so in all actuality you have provided zero support for your position. You're ignoring context and saying "these verses prove my point, disprove them." When taken in context they disprove your point, I don't have to do anything, much like with salvation.

It says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that God gives faith and I have already posted those verses. But perhaps you need to see them again.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It doesn't get much clearer than that as to where the gift of faith comes from. I'm really surprised at your responses because this is BASIC Christianity, there's nothing complex here. Ya know all the conservative Christians I talk to on this forum ALL say they believe these two verses and quote them often, yet when you dig a little deeper you find out that they actually don't believe these verses and prefer Arminianism which has no support in the scriptures.

You have no choice until God gives you the gift of faith in Christ. Remember until God acts in your life you have but the one nature, the sinful nature, and the only thing the sinful nature knows how to do is reject God. So where is this choice you think you have? It's gotta be all in your head, because it's certainly not taught in scripture.

 

[Zecryphon]

Other people were already approaching this with the Calvinist/Arminian
discussion which I don't think is the angle she was looking for.
(there's so many of these topics on the boards already).

I think her viewpoint can be refuted by using reasoning
that dismisses it pretty well whether or not it's biblically accurate
(God's method of saving).
I would think that tackling the viewpoint itself might help
first before moving to accepting either theological position.
?
But I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong approach -
just a different one.

Yeah the Arminian/Calvinist debates never settle anything because they both are in error. The Arminian with their belief in Semi-Pelagianism and the Calvinist with their belief in Limited Atonement. Her viewpoint needs to be substantiated first before anything can be done to determine if it is in error. Since she has not backed up any of her claims with anything, scriptural or otherwise I don't know really where to begin. I have posted the scriptures that explain how this works, but since she is not attending church, it's hard to say where she is getting her information from. Until we know that, I'm unclear as how to proceed further with this issue raised in the OP.

 

[Nadiine]

Yeah the Arminian/Calvinist debates never settle anything because they both are in error. The Arminian with their belief in Semi-Pelagianism and the Calvinist with their belief in Limited Atonement. Her viewpoint needs to be substantiated first before anything can be done to determine if it is in error. Since she has not backed up any of her claims with anything, scriptural or otherwise I don't know really where to begin. I have posted the scriptures that explain how this works, but since she is not attending church, it's hard to say where she is getting her information from. Until we know that, I'm unclear as how to proceed further with this issue raised in the OP.

exactly.
And I wasn't going to go any further with it after already addressing
the error of the original premise.

I think church is just a fragment of the issue, she rejects scripture
as inerrant truth of God. . . which is what [a proper] church would base its teachings on.
But I think you'de need to accept scripture first, but I haven't sat &
thought that all out yet lol.

(sorry for seeming to talk about her as if she isn't here)

 

[dies-l]

John 14:2-6
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 6:53-55
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

Heaven is where God dwells. The bible speaks of Christ coming again to take us home (He is from Heaven). Eternal life and crown of life both speaks of being with God forever but not on earth (for earth will be destroyed by fire). We are told countless times do not store for ourselves treasures on earth but store for ourselves treasures in Heaven.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I am probably doing a poor job at connecting these verses, I just want to show you that the bible does say that the believers will go to heaven and that that eternal life is not merely the "cessation of suffering". There are tons more verse that connects it, but I'm not all here this morning.

By the way, I wanted to say that I do not know enough about Buddhism to try and have a long conversation with you, but I know Christianity and I am trying to showcase the passages in scripture because some of the things you said about scripture is not correct. And the reason why I am not answering your post all at once (even though it was not directed towards me, I just saw some things said that was not correct) is because I think some of your points requires a lot more than just one long post that would be too hard to read.

At this point, I am not all that interested in continuing the discussion as to whether it is possible to find and follow Jesus outside of Christianity. If you have sincere questions as to my opinion on that, I am willing to try to answer them. But, I'm not up for debate on that right now. Honestly, I am trying to learn to discuss and share opinions with other believers without engaging in prolonged argument that distracts from the work of the Kingdom. This has been a struggle of mine about which I have recently felt a lot of conviction from the Holy Spirit.

As for the statement about going to a place called heaven (apparently, when we die), I would like to provide explanation. The passages that you cite point to a common set of (incorrect, I believe) assumptions. These assumptions are along the following lines: Eternal life begins when we die and eternal life will be in a place called heaven, which is distinct from the place that we live now. Another common assumption, which I do not know if you embrace, is that only our "soul" goes to heaven. I don't believe that the early Christians embraced any of these assumptions. My understanding of Scripture and context is that the early Christians believed in a bodily resurrection that would take place here and would be the final fulfillment of the eternal life that begins at the moment that each of us surrenders to Jesus.

That being said, I will attempt to address each of the passages you cite

In John 14:2-6, Jesus appears to be speaking to the apostles. Perhaps, other disciples are present; the context is not completely clear. But, I am hesitant to assume anything about the context, especially when those assumptions would seem to contradict what Christ revealed to John in Rev. 21 (esp. vv. 2-4). Perhaps, Jesus was speaking about a special place in the restored Jerusalem (which is Heaven come to Earth, not earthlings to Heaven) to be prepared for his Apostles. Perhaps, he is speaking to all believers, and the preparation he is speaking about, is the restoration of all things, described in Revelation. The context is not clear as to what Jesus is going to do to "prepare a place" for (either them or all of us). Contextually, he refers to His Father's House immediately before saying that he is preparing a place. But, in terms of place it is unclear whether the dwelling places he is speaking of are for us to live in in heaven or whether they will be brought to their inhabitents on the Earth at the resurrection. Rev. 21, I believe, indicates that the latter is more likely.

John 6:53-55 and John 10:27-29 both speak of eternal life. They don't describe a place, only that we have eternal life. The only way to intepret these passages as saying that "we will go to heaven when we die" is by importing our assumption that that is where eternal life takes place. Notice the present tense. It doesn't say "will have eternal life." Eternal life exists within the believer at the moment he or she chooses to walk in faith, not when the person dies (and leaves the Earth, according to a popular belief). Thus, even according to the popular assumption about going to heaven when we die, at least some of our eternal life is spent here on the Earth. I believe that, when the Bible is read in a proper context, we find that that popular assumption was not held by the early church and that all of our eternal life is spent here.

Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of a kingdom prepared for us and also about eternal life. I have already addressed "eternal life" so now I turn to "the kingdom." Many people assume that a kingdom refers to a physical place, but this is an incorrect assumption. The word kingdom refers to a structure of authority and those who are bound (whether by submission or force) to that authority. A king is an authority figure. His kingdom is the administration of his authority. When we speak of Britain as a kingdom, we are not speaking of its physical location (although its geography significantly defined the extent of the authority of the Kingdom). Rather, we speak of the structure by which authority is administered. In the same way, the kingdom of heaven is not necessarily a place, but is the authority of the King of Heaven (God) over his subjects (his followers).

I agree with you that Heaven is where God dwells. And, Rev. 21:2-3 indicates that God will come "out of heaven" to make His dwelling among men. When this happens, the Earth will become subject completely to the authority of the Kingdom of Heaven. This suggests to me that Heaven will exist on Earth.

As far as the Bible saying that Christ will take us to His home or that eternal life is not on Earth, I do not know the passages that you are speaking of, so I can't really comment on them at this point. I would be interested in knowing which passages you are speking of.

I also agree that we are told not to store up treasures Earth (but rather in Heaven). I don't agree, however, that this implies "place." When the Earth and Kingdom are one (which will occur, I believe, only after a period of intense destruction of old institutions, power structures, and physical things), we will no longer live in a human economy, but rather a God economy. In a God economy, those things that are of value to us now will be worthless. Think for a second about the economy of the U.S. Civil War. If you had had 10 million Confedarte dollars during the war, you would be very wealthy. However, if you had held onto all that money long after the war ended, you would be stuck with 10 million worthless sheets of paper. The difference is the authority. The U.S. Government did not recognize the economic authority of the C.S.A. Likewise, in God's kingdom, the economic systems we have created for ourselves are not recognized. So, Jesus is telling us that there will be a day when all of our possessions will be rendered worthless by a change in authority and he is advising us to begin cashing in our worldly resources (time, money, and possession) for God capital now, while we still have the opportunity to do so.

So, I guess this wasn't really brief (sorry about that). In short, the common belief in "going to heaven when you die" is based on a set of assumptions that are never expressed in Scripture. I believe that these assumptions are incorrect and that there exist passages in Scripture that cannot be reconciled with them. I hope this has helped to further explain my beliefs on that question.

 

[Tzaousios]

It's found throughout the Bible- commands to repent, requests to have faith, admonitions to love others- all of these require that we choose to carry them out, otherwise it's useless to make such commands or requests. God doesn't strike me as the kind of person to talk to walls for no reason, you?

Not only does the Bible say that faith is a gift from God, but it also says that repentance is granted by God.

Psalm 119:27-29

27 Make me understand the way of Your precepts;
So shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.
28 My soul melts from heaviness;
Strengthen me according to Your word.
29 Remove from me the way of lying,
And grant me Your law graciously.

Psalm 119:33-37

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall keep it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.
36 Incline my heart to Your testimonies,
And not to covetousness.
37 Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,
And revive me in Your way.

Acts 5:30-31

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

Romans 2:4

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Timothy 2:24-26

24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

As far as people thinking I'm promoting Calvinism, that's because most people think there's only two schools of thought on this whole salvation thing, Calvinism and Arminianism. They forget that Luther preceded Calvin and was teaching that there is no choice before Calvin ever came onto the scene. Plus if anyone ever accuses a Lutheran of being a Calvinist, they need to do some research into what the Lutherans believe, teach and confess.

Augustine came to the conclusion that there is no choice long before Luther. He also expressed the predicament of the will as being a bondage or imprisonment that needed the power of grace to break it long before Luther.

[/font][/size][/color]Where in the Bible does it say that God gives faith? Or does God give the mindset and belief required for faith? Is faith our response, our choice after God chooses us?

Of course there are verses which say that God bestows faith as a gift:

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Ephesians 2:8

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Philippians 1:29-30

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Hebrew 12:1-2

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Zecryphon]

Not only does the Bible say that faith is a gift from God, but it also says that repentance is granted by God.















Augustine came to the conclusion that there is no choice long before Luther. He also expressed the predicament of the will as being a bondage or imprisonment that needed the power of grace to break it long before Luther.



Of course there are verses which say that God bestows faith as a gift:

Since Luther was an Augustinian monk, it makes sense that he would reiterate Augustine's positions on these matters. Your contribution further enforces my point that there are others who came before Calvin and Arminius who had something to say on the issue of salvation. It's not always an Arminian/Calvinist debate as if those two are the only ones who ever wrote on this matter. Although, reading through this forum you'd never know it.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

In John 14:2-6, Jesus appears to be speaking to the apostles. Perhaps, other disciples are present; the context is not completely clear. But, I am hesitant to assume anything about the context, especially when those assumptions would seem to contradict what Christ revealed to John in Rev. 21 (esp. vv. 2-4). Perhaps, Jesus was speaking about a special place in the restored Jerusalem (which is Heaven come to Earth, not earthlings to Heaven) to be prepared for his Apostles. Perhaps, he is speaking to all believers, and the preparation he is speaking about, is the restoration of all things, described in Revelation. The context is not clear as to what Jesus is going to do to "prepare a place" for (either them or all of us). Contextually, he refers to His Father's House immediately before saying that he is preparing a place. But, in terms of place it is unclear whether the dwelling places he is speaking of are for us to live in in heaven or whether they will be brought to their inhabitents on the Earth at the resurrection. Rev. 21, I believe, indicates that the latter is more likely.

John 13:36 says specifically
"Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you shall follow Me afterward." Throughout Jesus' commandments He constantly reminds us that He is not of this world for He came down from Heaven to be the fulfillment of the Law. Where He was going? Back to Heaven. When will He be back? Judgment day, His second coming. This verse then leads into John 14:2-6, so are then told that Jesus is leaving and coming back and that Simeon cannot follow but he will afterward. It doesn't matter "how" Jesus is going to "prepare a place" He just say that it is. And He made sure to say "place" so that we would understand. And as for this place being on earth...I'm not quite sure I agree. For Revelations 21:1 says this, Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away." Regardless if God is coming to earth to dwell among men it is not this earth, for this earth will pass away. and if He is saying that He is coming to dwell in the holy city then we know that He is talking about place for He is making it known to us that He is going to be in the Holy city. Assuming that Christ went to prepare a place in John 14 does not contradict that fact that there will be a new place in Revelations 21. When people say "I am going to heaven' I don't know if everyone assumes they are going to float up and go somewhere that is Heaven, nor do I know . if they means they are going to somewhere to wait until Christ's coming where they will enter the kingdom of God (both place and authority) but regardless we are told, that's where we are going if we abide and follow the teachings and commandments of Christ.

John 6:53-55 and John 10:27-29 both speak of eternal life. They don't describe a place, only that we have eternal life. The only way to intepret these passages as saying that "we will go to heaven when we die" is by importing our assumption that that is where eternal life takes place. Notice the present tense. It doesn't say "will have eternal life." Eternal life exists within the believer at the moment he or she chooses to walk in faith, not when the person dies (and leaves the Earth, according to a popular belief). Thus, even according to the popular assumption about going to heaven when we die, at least some of our eternal life is spent here on the Earth. I believe that, when the Bible is read in a proper context, we find that that popular assumption was not held by the early church and that all of our eternal life is spent here.

Notice that in Matthew 25:46 eternal life is described as something that we are going into once judgment is passed. In that context, eternal life is considered a place. All the other passages that I've shown you in John 6 and 10, it shows that eternal life is described as something that we have now. I don't believe the are a contradiction. I believe that we are saved NOW, when we follow the teachings and commandments of Christ. I believe that we do have eternal life because the soul (yes, I said soul for the physical body will die, and I don't know what we will look like when we are rise up in Christ but the bible says) is eternal and that once we are in Him, we have life not punishment. But once judgment is passed out, that's when we will reap the reward of eternal life (living with God forever).

Romans 2:3-8
And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Paul speaks of having eternal life now.


Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. An inheritance of eternal life which we are told we share in the inheritance with Christ (Eph 1:18, Eph 5:5, Col 1:12, Col 3:24).

Matthew 25:31-46 speaks of a kingdom prepared for us and also about eternal life. I have already addressed "eternal life" so now I turn to "the kingdom." Many people assume that a kingdom refers to a physical place, but this is an incorrect assumption. The word kingdom refers to a structure of authority and those who are bound (whether by submission or force) to that authority. A king is an authority figure. His kingdom is the administration of his authority. When we speak of Britain as a kingdom, we are not speaking of its physical location (although its geography significantly defined the extent of the authority of the Kingdom). Rather, we speak of the structure by which authority is administered. In the same way, the kingdom of heaven is not necessarily a place, but is the authority of the King of Heaven (God) over his subjects (his followers).

We are told that Heaven is a place. And Revelations 21 states that it is. In Revelations 21:2 it says "Then, I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." The New Jerusalem is descrbied as coming down from heaven. There are countless discussions on what exactly is New Jerusalem, but it that is where God is going to dwell, if that is what He means by Heaven, if that is our inheritance in eternal life, that is where I want to be. If the New Jerusalem is Heaven, then it is a place for it is called a "holy city" and if those terms are for my understanding that I would understand that to be a place. It might not mean a physical place like I understand it to be, it might be a spiritual place, but I am told it is a city (a place).

I agree with you that Heaven is where God dwells. And, Rev. 21:2-3 indicates that God will come "out of heaven" to make His dwelling among men. When this happens, the Earth will become subject completely to the authority of the Kingdom of Heaven. This suggests to me that Heaven will exist on Earth.

I agree with everything except for God is going to come "out of heaven" to make His dwelling place among men only because in Rev. 21:2 what is described as coming "out of heaven" is the holy city. I don't know if God will "come out of heaven" but I know that He will dwell among us in the city (whether that city means it's part of Heaven, is heaven, or is a place before Heaven--at that point I won't really care because God is there). And again Heaven might exist on earth (which makes it a place if you really think about it) but it will not be this earth for we are told in Rev 21:1 that the old heaven and earth will pass away.

As far as the Bible saying that

Christ will take us to His home

or that eternal life is not on Earth, I do not know the passages that you are speaking of, so I can't really comment on them at this point. I would be interested in knowing which passages you are speking of.

I mean the very first verse that I posted (John 14:2-6). and as for eternal life is not on earth, again Rev. 21:1.

This conversation is really long. If you want to continue it, I think maybe it should be just between us two by pming each other. I can already tell that each post will be pages long trying to get the point across. But my main point posting to you was not about heaven it was about the idea that one can be a Buddhist and find Christ but not following His commandments and teachings. It's funny, you are not interesting in discussing how one can find Christ outside of Christianity (which deals more with the OP question) and I am not interesting in continuing the conversation on heaven because while this conversation is not a salvation issue and therefore if we disagree it will not hurt or hinder our salvation whereas the other topic is. So because of that, i will leave this particular discussion with you. If you want to continue it you can pm me, if not, then I'll see you around this forum.

 

[Zebra1552]

Not only does the Bible say that faith is a gift from God, but it also says that repentance is granted by God.

Then let's check out your verses. I hope you have a lexicon handy.

Psalm 119:27-29

27 Make me understand the way of Your precepts;
So shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.
28 My soul melts from heaviness;
Strengthen me according to Your word.
29 Remove from me the way of lying,
And grant me Your law graciously.
​

Psalm 119:33-37

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall keep it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.
36 Incline my heart to Your testimonies,
And not to covetousness.
37 Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,
And revive me in Your way.
​

Neither of those things talk about God giving repentance as a gift. We are commanded to repent, and such a command would be quite useless if it is a gift. Why not command us to ask for it if it's a gift like God does with wisdom?

Acts 5:30-31

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”​

This does not talk about giving repentance, it's talking about allowing/permitting it. Check your Greek.

​

Romans 2:4

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

That does not say that repentance is given as a gift from God. It says the goodness of God leads to repentance. In other words, God enables it.

​

2 Timothy 2:24-26

24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
​

This uses the same word as your verses in Acts, used in the same way. To permit repentance, not give it.

Of course there are verses which say that God bestows faith as a gift:

I hope your verses for this are better than your verses about God giving repentance. Also, we are commanded to have faith. Why command faith if it's a gift? Why not tell us to ask for it, like with wisdom?

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

This right to be an heir is not talking about faith being given by God. It's talking about how our sanctification is a result of the Spirit's work in us.

John 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

That doesn't talk about faith being a gift. It talks about the work of God being the basis for belief. You might try putting your verses in context.

​

Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

If God has dealt to each one a measure of faith, why isn't everyone saved? Because the measure of faith isn't sufficient to save.

​

Ephesians 2:8

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Grace is the gift. Not faith. Alone, this verse means nothing.

​

Philippians 1:29-30

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Equivocation. Belief is not faith.

​

Hebrew 12:1-2

1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the author and the perfector of our faith- not its giver. Again, this verse doesn't talk about faith being a gift.

​

 

[dies-l]

This conversation is really long. If you want to continue it, I think maybe it should be just between us two by pming each other. I can already tell that each post will be pages long trying to get the point across. But my main point posting to you was not about heaven it was about the idea that one can be a Buddhist and find Christ but not following His commandments and teachings. It's funny, you are not interesting in discussing how one can find Christ outside of Christianity (which deals more with the OP question) and I am not interesting in continuing the conversation on heaven because while this conversation is not a salvation issue and therefore if we disagree it will not hurt or hinder our salvation whereas the other topic is. So because of that, i will leave this particular discussion with you. If you want to continue it you can pm me, if not, then I'll see you around this forum.

It's up to you whether this is a question that you want to consider further, but I agree with you that this thread is not the place to do it. This is not an issue that I think is terribly important to one's faith. After all, whether it is here, in heaven, or on a completely different "new Earth", I think all of us agree that we spend eternity with Jesus. But I do believe that it is always important to look at and question the assumptions that we bring to our reading and interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Tavita]

Your first verse, if taken literally, is contradicted by persons like David, Jesus, Peter, etc. Your second verse is talking about God choosing us and says nothing about whether or not we choose God as well. Nor do any of your other verses.

You have not responded to the other points of my previous post. Are you then conceding them?

Sorry, no I'm not 'conceding' at all. You have no good argument for me to concede to anyway..

I realize I shouldn't have responded in this thread as I'm not up to debate at the moment, and I'm bowing out...

 

[Zebra1552]

As a Lutheran I will never promote either Calvinism or Arminianism, so I'm not sure what your issue with me is. I have not labeled you as anything but have simply responded to your posts.

My issue is with your claims, not you.

You did not post two verses that support your position. You posted one verse that speaks to those who are already saved and was written to those who are already saved and the other verse has yet to take place, so in all actuality you have provided zero support for your position.

They provide plenty of support. They're if-then propositional statements (Revelation 21 and John 15)

You're ignoring context and saying "these verses prove my point, disprove them." When taken in context they disprove your point, I don't have to do anything, much like with salvation.

You tell me I'm taking things out of context then you proceed to post Ephesians 2 at me. Good job. Let's look at the context of that.

It says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that God gives faith and I have already posted those verses. But perhaps you need to see them again.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It says in Ephesians 2 that God gives grace. It's unclear whether or not it's also talking about faith or that it's not just talking about Jesus' death on the cross and the effects of that. Context:
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Paul is directly referencing some of his other ideas about being dead to sin- and to the Law- found in Romans and Galatians. In other words, it's talking about works of the Law, not works in general. And certainly not works done by abiding in Christ.

It doesn't get much clearer than that as to where the gift of faith comes from. I'm really surprised at your responses because this is BASIC Christianity, there's nothing complex here.

No. This is TRADITIONAL Christianity that you are taught in Sunday school without a thought as to what the verses actually mean in context.

Ya know all the conservative Christians I talk to on this forum ALL say they believe these two verses and quote them often, yet when you dig a little deeper you find out that they actually don't believe these verses and prefer Arminianism which has no support in the scriptures.

Free will has plenty of support in Scripture. Jesus commands, asks, tells us to pray. All such things are completely useless unless free will exists to some extent.

You have no choice until God gives you the gift of faith in Christ.

There is nothing in Scripture to support the idea that faith is a gift. If there was, it would indirectly contradict Jesus' commands for us to have faith. Same as repentance.

Remember until God acts in your life you have but the one nature, the sinful nature, and the only thing the sinful nature knows how to do is reject God.

Granted.

So where is this choice you think you have? It's gotta be all in your head, because it's certainly not taught in scripture.

So because you fail to see another POV it's not taught in Scripture? This choice comes after God chooses us. Like dating- one party asks the other person out, the other person responds. That's choice.