Is it possible..

[Skala]

The reason it is a possibility and not certain is because we are involved in the process. In order to remove our involvement, you put God responsible for our evil. Certainty is the core of a theology that removes our involvement and our responsibility for our own sins.

Not at all. If you've listened to anything we've been saying for the past 6 months, you will recall us saying that we believe in Compatiblistic Free Will. Which means man's free will (or free agency) is compatible with God's sovereignty.

We've even given biblical examples such as Christ's crucifixion, Joseph being sold to Egypt, Assyria being used as God's rod of anger, etc.

 

[elman]

What is stopping God from regenerating everyone?

Would you say that the only logical and honest answer is that ultimately, He does not want to regenerate everyone (and thus, doesn't)?

I would say that is not the only logical and honest answer. The Bible clearly teaches God want us all to turn from wickedness and be saved. I would say God wants to regenerate all who destroy their own soul with their own sin, but God is not obligated in any way to regenerate the wicked, those who have not and do not love others.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Since He created beings such as us with the ability to love or not love but no ability to be perfect as he is perfect or love completely as He loves completely.

That doesn't answer the question. Chance denotes possibility. Possibility denotes uncertainty. Uncertainty denotes lack of knowledge, which we both believe to be impossible with God (I think). Therefore chance does not exist.

 

[elman]

Not at all. If you've listened to anything we've been saying for the past 6 months, you will recall us saying that we believe in Compatiblistic Free Will. Which means man's free will (or free agency) is compatible with God's sovereignty.

We've even given biblical examples such as Christ's crucifixion, Joseph being sold to Egypt, Assyria being used as God's rod of anger, etc.

Having the ability to chose to love others and not having that ability is not compatible. Our having nothing to do with our receiving eternal life and having something to do with it is not compatible.

 

[guuila]

No man could ever know the fullness of the mystery that is God.

It looks like postmodernism has influenced your thinking. Calvinists don't claim to know and understand anymore than what God has revealed in the Bible.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV)'

I get really tired of this liberal mindset. "Nobody can really know!" Oh really? All we're trying to defend is what the Bible says. It's amazing to me how many Christians usurp the authority of God and try to convince other Christians that the things revealed in Scripture aren't important. The audacity of some folks... just goes to show the arrogance that the flesh can produce. If it's in the Bible, it's infinitely important. Otherwise, God wouldn't have put it there. We would all do well to submit to it instead of stand in judgment of it.

Having the same mind of Christ means being open to Spiritual teaching from ANY source.

Really? So Christ is open to the Koran? Even though it denies his deity?

 

[motherprayer]

It looks like postmodernism has influenced your thinking. Calvinists don't claim to know and understand anymore than what God has revealed in the Bible.

I never said Calvinists did.

I get really tired of this liberal mindset. "Nobody can really know!" Oh really? All we're trying to defend is what the Bible says. It's amazing to me how many Christians usurp the authority of God and try to convince other Christians that the things revealed in Scripture aren't important. The audacity of some folks... just goes to show the arrogance that the flesh can produce.

The truth is, no one can know the fullness of the mystery of God. I should probably have said "Scriptural" rather than "Spiritual." Oh the joys of semantics

Really? So Christ is open to the Koran? Even though it denies his deity?

The Quran has many teachings that are in line with the Bible. It is not 100% accurate, but I have learned things from Muslims that go right in line with what Scripture teaches.

My view is not liberal in the slightest. I don't know where you got that idea from All you have to do is go through my recent post history and you can see that. I believe God hates divorce, I also believe that homosexuality is sin. I believe we were much better off 50 years ago when people just accepted it rather than trying to set the Bible against itself and refute it.

What I meant when I said that one can find Spiritual (Scriptural) lessons from any source is that God uses everything for good, even what satan does. I meant that secular movies and literature have SCRIPTURAL lessons in them, but it takes a child of Christ to see that. I meant that one should never discount EVERYTHING that comes from a certain source just because one or two things in it are flawed, because EVERYTHING on earth is flawed. We live in a fallen world.

One should always be open especially to the things another believer has to say, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, or even Mormon, because with a spirit of discernment one might learn something they never knew before.

What I meant when I said we can never know the fullness of the mysteries of God was that we can't. Plain and simple. If you believe you have all the answers, you end up missing out on what God wants to teach you, because as long as you breath, there will ALWAYS be something to learn.

 

[Skala]

I never said Calvinists did.

The truth is, no one can know the fullness of the mystery of God. I should probably have said "Scriptural" rather than "Spiritual." Oh the joys of semantics


The Quran has many teachings that are in line with the Bible. It is not 100% accurate, but I have learned things from Muslims that go right in line with what Scripture teaches.

My view is not liberal in the slightest. I don't know where you got that idea from All you have to do is go through my recent post history and you can see that. I believe God hates divorce, I also believe that homosexuality is sin. I believe we were much better off 50 years ago when people just accepted it rather than trying to set the Bible against itself and refute it.

What I meant when I said that one can find Spiritual (Scriptural) lessons from any source is that God uses everything for good, even what satan does. I meant that secular movies and literature have SCRIPTURAL lessons in them, but it takes a child of Christ to see that. I meant that one should never discount EVERYTHING that comes from a certain source just because one or two things in it are flawed, because EVERYTHING on earth is flawed. We live in a fallen world.

One should always be open especially to the things another believer has to say, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, or even Mormon, because with a spirit of discernment one might learn something they never knew before.

What I meant when I said we can never know the fullness of the mysteries of God was that we can't. Plain and simple. If you believe you have all the answers, you end up missing out on what God wants to teach you, because as long as you breath, there will ALWAYS be something to learn.

Sounds like a classic case of "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

 

[guuila]

The Quran has many teachings that are in line with the Bible. It is not 100% accurate, but I have learned things from Muslims that go right in line with what Scripture teaches.

Do you believe the Quran is inspired?

One should always be open especially to the things another believer has to say, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, or even Mormon, because with a spirit of discernment one might learn something they never knew before.

If you believe Mormons are Christians, you're already more liberal than I am.

What I meant when I said we can never know the fullness of the mysteries of God was that we can't. Plain and simple. If you believe you have all the answers, you end up missing out on what God wants to teach you, because as long as you breath, there will ALWAYS be something to learn.

The reason we can't know everything is because God hasn't revealed everything. But what he has revealed can be known. The question is has God revealed to us in Scripture that his grace is the cause of anyone's salvation or not? If he has, we better believe it.

 

[Skala]

The reason we can't know everything is because God hasn't revealed everything. But what he has revealed can be known. The question is has God revealed to us in Scripture that his grace is the cause of anyone's salvation or not? If he has, we better believe it.

Exactly, MP. Nobody here is saying that we can know something the Bible never speaks about.

But we can know, with absolute certainty, everything it does speak about.

Nevertheless there are times when people try to play the "mystery" card when talking about doctrines that the Bible is crystal clear on, such as the doctrine of election.

By the way, how's your study of Romans 12:1-6 going? Still thinking it's talking about every individual in human history?

 

[motherprayer]

Sounds like a classic case of "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

I stand for Christ, and Christ alone.

You see, if there was one Scripture that said something to the effect of 'People will be born with no chance of ever believing" I would reconsider. But I haven't yet found it. I have found Scripture that speaks of an elect, and of predestination, but it is not clear regarding the ones who never find Christ.

 

[motherprayer]

By the way, how's your study of Romans 12:1-6 going? Still thinking it's talking about every individual in human history?

Yes

 

[Skala]

Yes

Sigh.

Is it because you just refuse to be corrected? Is it a pride issue that you just don't want to admit you were understanding that verse wrongly all along?

I'm not being a jerk. I seriously am curious.

 

[motherprayer]

Sigh.

Is it because you just refuse to be corrected? Is it a pride issue that you just don't want to admit you were understanding that verse wrongly all along?

I'm not being a jerk. I seriously am curious.

No, its simply a different interpretation.

I care tremendously for the souls of the unsaved. It breaks my heart to know that some are just to pigheaded to understand Christ or Christianity at all, and I pray for them all the time. I can't just accept that God is the reason some of them will perish.

 

[Skala]

No, its simply a different interpretation.

I care tremendously for the souls of the unsaved. It breaks my heart to know that some are just to pigheaded to understand Christ or Christianity at all, and I pray for them all the time. I can't just accept that God is the reason some of them will perish.

There's only one correct interpretation of any given passage: What the author intended to portray.

Can you make an argument for the idea that Paul intended, in this passage,, to teach that God gives every individual in the human race faith? Can you show how you come to that conclusion from the context of the passage and the surrounding verses?

If not, why do you desperately cling to that interpretation? If you can't even make an argument for it, how did you, yourself become convinced of it?

Rom 12:1-6
(1) I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
(2) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
(3) For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
(4) For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
(5) so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
(6) Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;

 

[guuila]

No, its simply a different interpretation.

Yes it is, but not all interpretations are equal. There are an infinite amount of erroneous ones, and there is one correct one. It makes absolutely no sense at all in the context of Romans 12:3 to believe God gives a measure of faith to every single individual. That's not even the point Paul is making. He's not even remotely talking about that. Observe:

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. (Romans 12:1-3 ESV)'

He is obviously addressing the church in Rome. He calls them brothers, and says I say TO YOU not to think of himself more highly than he ought, but think soberly - each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. If every single person in existence has faith, every single person in existence is justified and is going to heaven. Your refusal to be corrected here is concerning.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I care tremendously for the souls of the unsaved. It breaks my heart to know that some are just to pigheaded to understand Christ or Christianity at all, and I pray for them all the time. I can't just accept that God is the reason some of them will perish.

We are/were all too pigheaded to understand Christ. The gracious gift of God was what allowed us to not be.

All of history is an unfolding of the approval of God. There is not one minute happening that is not approved and decreed by our Sovereign.

"Men imagine that the Most High is moved by sentiment, rather than actuated by principle. They suppose that his omnipotency is such an idle fiction that Satan is thwarting his designs on every side. They think that if he has formed any plan or purpose at all, then it must be like theirs, constantly subject to change. They openly declare that whatever power he possesses must be restricted, lest he invade the citadel of man's "free will" and reduce him to a "machine". They lower the all-efficacious Atonement, which has actually redeemed everyone for whom it was made, to a mere "remedy," which sin-sick souls may use if they feel disposed to; to an "offer" of the Gospel which sinners may accept or reject as they please. The "god" of this twentieth century no more resembles the Supreme Sovereign of Holy Writ than does the dim flickering of a candle the glory of the midday sun."

 

[JackSparrow]

Jack, God's chosen people are believers.

So if you re-word your questions to:

So do NOT believing people have any chance of getting saved ?
What percentage of the population in history would you say are NOT believers.

If you answer those two questions, you end up with the exact same answer for your original questions.

So, what is your answer for these questions?

Not following you.

Unbelievers do have a chance of getting saved. E.g the apostle Paul

 

[guuila]

Not following you.

Unbelievers do have a chance of getting saved. E.g the apostle Paul

A chance? If only they'll wise up and be like you?

 

[Skala]

Not following you.

Unbelievers do have a chance of getting saved. E.g the apostle Paul

How could you follow me? The post was pretty easy to understand.

When I say "the elect" or "the chosen", I am simply referring to "everyone who is currently a believer or will be a believer in the future"

You asked me if the non-elect have any chance to be saved.

I responded by asking you if people who are not believers or never will believe have any chance of being saved?

 

[JackSparrow]

A chance? If only they'll wise up and be like you?

Again, not following.

is 'chance' a banned word here.

Seriously, was the apostle Paul unsaved prior to his calling by God on the road to Damascus ?