Is it possible..

[Eric Hibbert]

Is is possible to be neither Arminian or Calvinist?

I believe it's possible to take things from both sides but, at the end of the day, you either believe man initiates his own salvation (arminianism) or you believe God initiates salvation (Calvinism)

 

[Skala]

I believe it's possible to take things from both sides but, at the end of the day, you either believe man initiates his own salvation (arminianism) or you believe God initiates salvation (Calvinism)

To be fair to our Arminian brethren, even Arminians, with their doctrine of prevenient grace believe that God initiates salvation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is stopping God from regenerating everyone?

That assumes something is stopping God from regenerating everyone. I don't think that's a good assumption to make.

Would you say that the only logical and honest answer is that ultimately, He does not want to regenerate everyone (and thus, doesn't)?

No, because that would contradict the Scriptures which say that God desire all to be saved. It may make for a more rationally coherent theology, but it's not faithful to Scripture.

Salvation isn't about a cold mechanical Sovereign decree, it's about God's all-embracing loving-kindness, His limitless, unconditional grace freely and liberally poured out through Christ for the whole world. The Sovereign Decree of God is His gracious Gospel, the declaration that "in Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself" and "God demonstrates His love, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us", etc. The sovereign act of God is Christ's redemptive and all-sufficient work on Mt. Calvary, which was and is for the whole world, for everybody.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Skala]

That assumes something is stopping God from regenerating everyone. I don't think that's a good assumption to make.



No, because that would contradict the Scriptures which say that God desire all to be saved. It may make for a more rationally coherent theology, but it's not faithful to Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

So your stance is that God desperately wants to regenerate them, but doesn't. Yet per your own admission, NOTHING is stopping God from doing it.

Are you sure you are understanding scripture correctly then? Because the scriptures are logically coherent. God is not the author of confusion.

What Bible verses exactly are you relying upon for your belief that God deep down desires the salvation of every individual in the human race?

Did God desire the salvation of Eli's sons? He said he would never make atonement for the guilt of Eli's sons.

Did God desire the salvation of Pharaoh? For God said he raised Pharaoh up on purpose to "display his power in him, so that His name would be declared throughout the earth". Did God secretly desire Pharaoh to suddenly repent, toppling his plan/purpose to display His power in him (ie, make an example of him) and destroying his purpose to use him to make His name known throughout the earth?

Did God secretly desire the salvation of Judas? Why then did Christ allow satan to have his way with him? He could have easily stopped it.

So really, theologically, why do you think God desires the salvation of all individuals?

 

[Eric Hibbert]

To be fair to our Arminian brethren, even Arminians, with their doctrine of prevenient grace believe that God initiates salvation.

I don't see how. The idea is always that it's up to us to "accept"/"repeat this prayer after me"/etc.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Uncertainty does not denote lack of knowledge.

1. Not known or established; questionable

I take number one

So you believe "uncertainty" means "not known".

Since you believe in chance regarding man's salvation, and therefore it is uncertain, it is logically "not known". Even by God, in your system. That is, by fruition. Of course you will not agree but I believe the deductions I have made regarding your view are correct.

 

[Skala]

I don't see how. The idea is always that it's up to us to "accept"/"repeat this prayer after me"/etc.

Arminians believe that God initiates by giving "Prevenient Grace", which enables man to either accept or reject the gospel.

Calvinists believe that God initiates by regeneration, which guarantees that the person will accept the gospel.

Only Pelagianism and Semipelagianism teach that man can initiate his relationship with God.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Honest question: Do you believe it is possible to be absolutely certain about all things pertaining God? If not, do you believe that one can be knowledgable about the Bible and also uncertain about all things pertaining God?

I can see where you are going with this, however it is one thing to speak of human epistemology (which is subjective) and another when you speak of the omniscience of God. My initial point was that there cannot be "chance" regarding the salvation of man (or individual men) because of the epistemological certainties which is God's omniscience. Nothing can happen apart from the foreknowledge of God which is innate to His being, and thus that which is foreknown is set in stone i.e. there is no uncertainty regarding the unfolding of human history.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So really, theologically, why do you think God desires the salvation of all individuals?

Because Scripture explicitly says so:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-7

Now, I'm sure this can be explained away all fancy like. But then again, Arminians will go on to explain how predestined doesn't actually mean predestined.

That is, in my mind, the problem common to both Calvinism and Arminianism; both systems are working out from the same basic premise. Namely that the Scriptures must "come out right", and in order to do that half of the biblical teaching must be rejected in order to emphasize the other.

To be a Calvinist I'd have to reject the explicit teaching of Scripture that God loves everyone, that Christ died for everyone, and that it is God's will that all be saved.

To be an Arminian I'd have to reject the explicit teaching of Scripture that God alone works our salvation according to His purposes in and through Christ Jesus, according to His grace and His grace alone.

As such, I think I'll stick to Lutheranism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JackSparrow]

Arminians believe that God initiates by giving "Prevenient Grace", which enables man to either accept or reject the gospel.

Calvinists believe that God initiates by regeneration, which guarantees that the person will accept the gospel.

Only Pelagianism and Semipelagianism teach that man can initiate his relationship with God.

Are these the only three options ?

I would reject the Semi/Pelagaian option described above.

I am not so sure about the guarantee bit. That raise some big issues.

So would I go with number 1 ?
Complicated. My gut feeling is that most are enabled. Maybe Pharaoh was an exception. I think the exceptions are few, most are enabled.

I think most get the free will to refuse. In some cases e,g Jonah, Apostle Paul, God is more insistent and will not take no for an answer. But for Joe public, they will be judged by what they have received.

So I guess that makes me arminian. Well, largely. But why then is God not more insistent with Joe public ?

I do not know. Any ideas are most welcome.

 

[Skala]

Because Scripture explicitly says so:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-7

Now, I'm sure this can be explained away all fancy like. But then again, Arminians will go on to explain how predestined doesn't actually mean predestined.

An explanation is not necessarily "explaining away". I honestly feel like Paul is speaking of all types of people in this passage, (such as kings and those in authority), not all individuals exhaustively. His point is that nobody is exuded from salvation based on rank or social class. Hence God's desire that all people be saved, not all individuals.

As you can see in the last part of the passage you cited, Paul springboards into defending his ministry to the gentiles (again, a type of people). Imagine telling a Jew under the oppression and tyranny of gentile leaders (kings and those in authority) that they should pray for them because God's desire is to save yes, even them.

To be a Calvinist I'd have to reject the explicit teaching of Scripture that God loves everyone, that Christ died for everyone, and that it is God's will that all be saved.

1) Calvinists affirm that God loves all people. What we deny is that He loves all people exactly the same way, because that's what the Bible teaches. He has a special love for His own, the way a husband has a love for his wife (Eph 5:25)

2) If Christ died for everyone, what did Christ accomplish for everyone (in Lutheranism?) What was he doing, for the non-elect, by his death?

3) That God wants everyone to be saved is not something the Bible necessarily teaches.

 

[Skala]

Are these the only three options ?

I would reject the Semi/Pelagaian option described above.

I am not so sure about the guarantee bit. That raise some big issues.

So would I go with number 1 ?
Complicated. My gut feeling is that most are enabled. Maybe Pharaoh was an exception. I think the exceptions are few, most are enabled.

I think most get the free will to refuse. In some cases e,g Jonah, Apostle Paul, God is more insistent and will not take no for an answer. But for Joe public, they will be judged by what they have received.

So I guess that makes me arminian. Well, largely. But why then is God not more insistent with Joe public ?

I do not know. Any ideas are most welcome.

If you want to learn about the various historical views, I would recommend submitting yourself to a few teaching series:

Chosen By God Teaching Series by Dr. R.C. Sproul from Ligonier Ministries

Amazing Grace - The History & Theology of Calvinism - YouTube

You can view the whole series of "Amazing Grace: History and Theology of Calvinism" on Amazon here:

Amazon.com: Amazing Grace: The History & Theology of Calvinism Pt. 1 of 3: James Gelet, NiceneCouncil.com, Jerry Johnson, Eric Holmberg: Amazon Instant Video

(it's in 3 parts I think)

Or you can just buy the DVD, from either Amazon or monergism book store.

 

[Arcoe]

An explanation is not necessarily "explaining away". I honestly feel like Paul is speaking of all types of people in this passage, (such as kings and those in authority), not all individuals exhaustively. His point is that nobody is exuded from salvation based on rank or social class. Hence God's desire that all people be saved, not all individuals.

Are not all individuals people? Does love discriminate?

As you can see in the last part of the passage you cited, Paul springboards into defending his ministry to the gentiles (again, a type of people). Imagine telling a Jew under the oppression and tyranny of gentile leaders (kings and those in authority) that they should pray for them because God's desire is to save yes, even them.

I believe Paul asked many Jews to pray for him.

1) Calvinists affirm that God loves all people. What we deny is that He loves all people exactly the same way, because that's what the Bible teaches. He has a special love for His own, the way a husband has a love for his wife (Eph 5:25)

No one born is a bastard; all were created by the Creator. What earthly father would show favoritism to his own children? Are earthly fathers more loving toward their children? Do they possess a love God does not? Do loving earthly fathers not love their children to the very end, only wanting the best for them?

2) If Christ died for everyone, what did Christ accomplish for everyone (in Lutheranism?) What was he doing, for the non-elect, by his death?

The means to be saved. What He was doing for the non-elect, was the very same thing He was doing for you. Providing the means to be saved.

3) That God wants everyone to be saved is not something the Bible necessarily teaches.

I believe if the truth be known, it is some belief systems which do not want everyone to be saved. Do you want everyone to be saved? Does your love reach where God's love does not? Do you have more compassion for all lost souls than God?