Is it possible..

[motherprayer]

So you deny that the Bible speaks of group of people called "the elect"? The "idea of the elect" as you called it is not our idea, but the Bible's idea.

The Bible speaks of the elect. We just have differing interpretations of who the elect is.

 

[Skala]

The Bible speaks of the elect. We just have differing interpretations of who the elect is.

So what is your interpretation?

Mine is: God's chosen people. After all the word "elect" means "chosen".

How could you possibly differ from this?

 

[Skala]

Not sure I have seen posts here NOT giving God the credit. Neither any post saying the Bible does not mention 'elect'.

Some people don't give God the credit for their faith or their willingness to obey the gospel.

Is the real controversy that God elects some to salvation then by default he has elected the rest to not salvation. Which raises some big issues.

I see what you are saying, but if you understand the issues, you will realize that this statement is not unique to any one soteriology (that God elects the rest to not-salvation)

In the historical debate, both sides/views recognize that God elected sinners from the foundation of the world to be saved. Because that's what the Bible says.

Arminians say that God's choice of these sinners was predicated on his foreseeing their obedience to the gospel.

Calvinists say that God's choice of these sinners was predicated on His own grace and mercy.

So you see, both views believe that God chose sinners from before the foundation of the world, for salvation. Logically it then follows that both views believe that there are people that God didn't elect for salvation from the foundation of the foundation of the world.

Both views believe that during temporal human history, some people are elect (and will come to faith) and other people are not elect (and thus will remain in their rebellion)

So you see your statement is not unique to one view or the other. It applies to both views.

 

[motherprayer]

So what is your interpretation?

Mine is: God's chosen people. After all the word "elect" means "chosen".

How could you possibly differ from this?

I don't. It is who God's chosen people are that we differ on. I believe that everyone born has the potential to come to Christ.

I don't believe God plays the lottery.

I believe He calls, but He offers a choice. I could turn from Christ today, and He would allow me to leave. He would call me back, and I could either turn away, or come back.

I don't believe in once saved always saved either, but I don't believe one can "lose" their salvation, but rather they have to make a conscious choice in giving it away.

I believe that God guarantees the salvation of everyone who responds to the call and perserveres.

I don't believe that there is a single person born who has not the ability to know Christ.

 

[Skala]

I don't. It is who God's chosen people are that we differ on. I believe that everyone born has the potential to come to Christ.

I don't believe God plays the lottery.

I believe He calls, but He offers a choice. I could turn from Christ today, and He would allow me to leave. He would call me back, and I could either turn away, or come back.

I don't believe in once saved always saved either, but I don't believe one can "lose" their salvation, but rather they have to make a conscious choice in giving it away.

I believe that God guarantees the salvation of everyone who responds to the call and perserveres.

I don't believe that there is a single person born who has not the ability to know Christ.

Who is God's chosen people then? Everyone? The whole human race is God's chosen people?

 

[JackSparrow]

So what is your interpretation?

Mine is: God's chosen people. After all the word "elect" means "chosen".

How could you possibly differ from this?

So do God's NOT chosen people have any chance of getting saved ?

What percentage of the population in history would you say are NOT chosen.

I am just getting a bit edgey in case I turn out to be one of them.

 

[Skala]

So do God's NOT chosen people have any chance of getting saved ?

What percentage of the population in history would you say are NOT chosen.

I am just getting a bit edgey in case I turn out to be one of them.

Jack, God's chosen people are believers.

So if you re-word your questions to:

So do NOT believing people have any chance of getting saved ?
What percentage of the population in history would you say are NOT believers.

If you answer those two questions, you end up with the exact same answer for your original questions.

So, what is your answer for these questions?

 

[motherprayer]

Who is God's chosen people then? Everyone? The whole human race is God's chosen people?

Who God's chosen people are, can only be answered by God Himself. We have not the wisdom to know.

What concerns me about the doctrine of the elect is that there are so many people who know Christ, desire Christ, and love Christ, but get caught up in the fear that they are not the elect. We shouldn't concern ourselves with such things.

We should focus our attention on loving others, in my case, because of the hope that they will learn who Christ is, in yours, just in case they are an elect.

There is no pride from the way that I believe, because God deserves all the credit in both your and my view, in yours, because you are not responsible for your salvation, and in mine, because I wouldn't even have had the chance to be saved if God had not first died on the cross for me, and then allowed me to live as a sinner until I came to know the Truth of His love for me.

The only real fundamental thing we disagree on is how many people have the chance to throw themselves on the cross and ask Him into their heart

 

[elman]

I don't. It is who God's chosen people are that we differ on. I believe that everyone born has the potential to come to Christ.

I don't believe God plays the lottery.

I believe He calls, but He offers a choice. I could turn from Christ today, and He would allow me to leave. He would call me back, and I could either turn away, or come back.

I don't believe in once saved always saved either, but I don't believe one can "lose" their salvation, but rather they have to make a conscious choice in giving it away.

I believe that God guarantees the salvation of everyone who responds to the call and perserveres.

I don't believe that there is a single person born who has not the ability to know Christ.

I think you are understanding Christianity and are a child of God. I think some Calvinist are children of God, but their understanding of the goodness of God is seriously flawed.---Of course we all have flaws in our understanding of God.

 

[motherprayer]

Of course we all have flaws in our understanding of God.

Exactly. This is why we should refrain from being combative with those who differ. Through my conversations with Calvinists, because I have been open to what teachings they have to offer and refused to scream "FALSE RELIGION" at them whenever I see a thread where they post, I have been able to come to a better understanding of Christ.

No man could ever know the fullness of the mystery that is God. Having the same mind of Christ means being open to Spiritual teaching from ANY source.

 

[elman]

Jack, God's chosen people are believers.

So if you re-word your questions to:

So do NOT believing people have any chance of getting saved ?
What percentage of the population in history would you say are NOT believers.

If you answer those two questions, you end up with the exact same answer for your original questions.

So, what is your answer for these questions?

The question is do loving people have a chance of receiving eternal life? Do wicked and unloving people have a chance of receiving eternal life? Apparently according to Revelation there will be a vast number too many to count in heaven.

 

[motherprayer]

The question is do loving people have a chance of receiving eternal life? Do wicked and unloving people have a chance of receiving eternal life? Apparently according to Revelation there will be a vast number too many to count in heaven.

Two more questions to which only God has the answer.

 

[elman]

Exactly. This is why we should refrain from being combative with those who differ. Through my conversations with Calvinists, because I have been open to what teachings they have to offer and refused to scream "FALSE RELIGION" at them whenever I see a thread where they post, I have been able to come to a better understanding of Christ.

No man could ever know the fullness of the mystery that is God. Having the same mind of Christ means being open to Spiritual teaching from ANY source.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

The question is do loving people have a chance of receiving eternal life? Do wicked and unloving people have a chance of receiving eternal life? Apparently according to Revelation there will be a vast number too many to count in heaven.

Chance? Since when does there exist "chance" with an all sovereign, all knowing, all powerful God as ours?

 

[Skala]

Who God's chosen people are, can only be answered by God Himself. We have not the wisdom to know.

I think you either misunderstood my question or you are ducking the question. I wasn't asking you to identify which individuals are the elect. I agree, only God knows. I was asking, in a general sense, in your view, who are the elect? Is everyone the elect? Are only some people the elect? Why are they elect? Are only believers the elect? Why did God choose them? When did He choose them?

What concerns me about the doctrine of the elect is that there are so many people who know Christ, desire Christ, and love Christ, but get caught up in the fear that they are not the elect. We shouldn't concern ourselves with such things.

The Bible teaches these things, thus we are expected to concern ourselves with them.

We should focus our attention on loving others, in my case, because of the hope that they will learn who Christ is, in yours, just in case they are an elect.

Me teaching someone about the doctrine of election is loving them. Hearing that God loved you from eternity past so much that He set out to save you without fail is the best news someone could possible learn.

There is no pride from the way that I believe, because God deserves all the credit in both your and my view, in yours, because you are not responsible for your salvation, and in mine, because I wouldn't even have had the chance to be saved if God had not first died on the cross for me, and then allowed me to live as a sinner until I came to know the Truth of His love for me.

Since you don't credit God for your faith and willingness to come to Him, there is room to boast in your view. In your view, the faith and willingness came from you. In my view, it is the result of God's effectual work to save me.

The only real fundamental thing we disagree on is how many people have the chance to throw themselves on the cross and ask Him into their heart

We don't disagree on that. Everyone who wants to, can throw themselves on the cross. That's my view. How does it differ from yours?

We both agree that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. In both of our views, in the end, every single believer is who will be in heaven.

Where we differ is, in my view, that group of people was gauranteed to become believers.

In your view, there was no guarantee that those people would become believers. It just happened by chance and luck.

In my view, God loved these people with an everlasting love, and chose to save them out of pure, undeserved grace and mercy.

In your view, God just got lucky that some people just happened to buy the gospel. He left the eternal fate of the souls of men to chance. Like tossing the dice.

You argue against the "lottery", but that's exactly what your view is: luck, chance, etc.

 

[Skala]

Chance? Since when does there exist "chance" with an all sovereign, all knowing, all powerful God as ours?

As I'm sure you know, chance is the core, foundational thing in synergism.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you affirm both

1) God regenerates monergistically
2) God desires all to be saved

Why doesn't God regenerate all? He could easily accomplish #2 by employing #1.

It seems like an incoherent belief to affirm both of those as true.

It is incoherent. But it's also biblical. The Scriptures affirm that God is the sole agent in our salvation, having unconditionally predestined us in Christ; simultaneously Scripture affirms that it is God's will and desire that all believe and be saved.

Your question is known as the Crux Theologorum, it's an unanswerable question because we cannot reconcile these two statements in a rational and coherent way.

Why are some saved and not others? God only knows.

It's a paradox of faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[elman]

Chance? Since when does there exist "chance" with an all sovereign, all knowing, all powerful God as ours?

Since He created beings such as us with the ability to love or not love but no ability to be perfect as he is perfect or love completely as He loves completely.

 

[Skala]

It is incoherent. But it's also biblical. The Scriptures affirm that God is the sole agent in our salvation, having unconditionally predestined us in Christ; simultaneously Scripture affirms that it is God's will and desire that all believe and be saved.

Your question is known as the Crux Theologorum, it's an unanswerable question because we cannot reconcile these two statements in a rational and coherent way.

Why are some saved and not others? God only knows.

It's a paradox of faith.

-CryptoLutheran

What is stopping God from regenerating everyone?

Would you say that the only logical and honest answer is that ultimately, He does not want to regenerate everyone (and thus, doesn't)?

 

[elman]

As I'm sure you know, chance is the core, foundational thing in synergism.

The reason it is a possibility and not certain is because we are involved in the process. In order to remove our involvement, you put God responsible for our evil. Certainty is the core of a theology that removes our involvement and our responsibility for our own sins.