is it possible to mistake non-sin for sin?

[archer75]

I think so - not for any theological reason but simply because I think it's possible to be mistaken. Especially in hindsight, but even in the moment.

In other words, I think it's possible to feel guilt about something that really wasn't wrong.

This came up in another thread. I thought I would bring it up here in case it becomes debate.

@Willie T

 

[Not me]

Sure, that’s how we grow. As scripture says “finding out those things that please the Lord”

As long as you are walking in the integrity of your heart toward Christ. He will cause you to grow.

Your brother in Christ. Not me

 

[Willie T]

I think so - not for any theological reason but simply because I think it's possible to be mistaken. Especially in hindsight, but even in the moment.

In other words, I think it's possible to feel guilt about something that really wasn't wrong.

This came up in another thread. I thought I would bring it up here in case it becomes debate.

@Willie T

I take it, since you added my name, this is one of the typical EO "hints" I often get to shut up in the other forum, so I will respect your special turf.

(See, Kylisa, this is what I meant.)

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes you can. the demons will do whatever they can to trip us up, even to try to get us to feel guilty about something that isn't a problem.

 

[archer75]

I take it, since you added my name, this is one of the typical EO "hints" I often get to shut up in the other forum, so I will respect your special turf.

(See, Kylisa, this is what I meant.)

No, I didn't mean that. I meant that the direction I thought this was going would derail the other thread. I added your name to "invite" you here, in case you wanted to discuss the matter with no question of derailment.

I apologize if it seemed this way. That really was not my intent. I was trying to prevent myself from overrunning another thread (with a worthy topic of its own).

Edit: And I stuck it here because, should it end up as a theological "debate" - debate is allowed here. and if not, this thread can still be here.

 

[Willie T]

I apologize. As Anastasia ( a truly respected and appreciated woman of God) well knows, I have usually been treated like a mangy dog by the vast majority of EO's here, and I unnecessarily snapped at you for what I thought was more of the same shabby treatment.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And actually I haven't been on a computer in forever ... I can't see people's faith icons. I had assumed @archer75 is not Orthodox? I suppose just because you've been on CF a while and been posting, but I think only recently came into a couple of threads in TAW?

We have lots of visitors. I wouldn't take it personally, @Willie T

 

[~Anastasia~]

(It takes me too long to type on my phone - sorry!)

 

[Willie T]

K,
Thank you. But it just seems fated that it is always going to be impossible to talk of ordinary Godly expectations in some places without it automatically becoming a defense of a denominational faith.

 

[Willie T]

And actually I haven't been on a computer in forever ... I can't see people's faith icons. I had assumed @archer75 is not Orthodox? I suppose just because you've been on CF a while and been posting, but I think only recently came into a couple of threads in TAW?

We have lots of visitors. I wouldn't take it personally, @Willie T

I read all posts. And as I told you, I steer clear of certain forums. But that topic just seemed such a simple and openly common sense thing that I couldn't imagine the usual happening. I was wrong.

 

[archer75]

I apologize. As Anastasia ( a truly respected and appreciated woman of God) well knows, I have usually been treated like a mangy dog by the vast majority of EO's here, and I unnecessarily snapped at you for what I thought was more of the same shabby treatment.

I am sorry to hear this. I have not noticed this treatment, probably because I haven't followed threads on which you participated (as far as I remember).

For the record, I meant something like what has been called "scruples" in the RC tradition:

Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Jesuits, wrote "After I have trodden upon a cross formed by two straws ... there comes to me from without a thought that I have sinned ... this is probably a scruple and temptation suggested by the enemy." (Wikipedia)

While stepping on a straw-cross (formed at random) and the thought "oh no!" might be almost simultaneous, I agree that this is prrrrobably not a sin - even if the person sinning really feels like they are doing something terrible.

I see from a later post on the other thread that you were thinking more of obviously willful poor behavior. In any case, I think my misunderstanding of what you meant was the culprit here, so maybe there was no real need for this thread.

I still think interesting or useful stuff could come up.

And as @~Anastasia~ said - sure, if you believe that you're rebelling, willfully do something, and then later find out it wasn't technically on the list...that I can see being sinful. But I was thinking more like: as you run to comfort the crying baby, you drop an empty envelope from a church mailing into the paper bin...as it begins to leave your hand, you think "am I disrepecting a holy envelope? But if I stop to consider it, I'm negelecting the baby! That's also a sin! AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!" And then there's an echo chamber in your head for a month in which you accuse yourself of sinning by dropping the envelope, sinning by considering neglecting the baby, sinning by justifying yourself when you try to escape from the thoughts, and sinning by obsessing over sin. And finally you go to confession / talk to your pastor / an elder and he says "you're confessing that you recycled a used envelope? Is there more to this story?"

And in that case or similar ones, I think one can be mistaken. I see now that maybe it wasn't so important to post this....

 

[archer75]

And actually I haven't been on a computer in forever ... I can't see people's faith icons. I had assumed @archer75 is not Orthodox? I suppose just because you've been on CF a while and been posting, but I think only recently came into a couple of threads in TAW?

We have lots of visitors. I wouldn't take it personally, @Willie T

I am Orthodox - I recently changed my username as well as my faith listing, but not to cause trouble! You knew me as hengest.

But regardless of my name, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, which was my fault.

 

[Willie T]

I am sorry to hear this. I have not noticed this treatment, probably because I haven't followed threads on which you participated (as far as I remember).

For the record, I meant something like what has been called "scruples" in the RC tradition:

Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Jesuits, wrote "After I have trodden upon a cross formed by two straws ... there comes to me from without a thought that I have sinned ... this is probably a scruple and temptation suggested by the enemy." (Wikipedia)

While stepping on a straw-cross (formed at random) and the thought "oh no!" might be almost simultaneous, I agree that this is prrrrobably not a sin - even if the person sinning really feels like they are doing something terrible.

I see from a later post on the other thread that you were thinking more of obviously willful poor behavior. In any case, I think my misunderstanding of what you meant was the culprit here, so maybe there was no real need for this thread.

I still think interesting or useful stuff could come up.

And as @~Anastasia~ said - sure, if you believe that you're rebelling, willfully do something, and then later find out it wasn't technically on the list...that I can see being sinful. But I was thinking more like: as you run to comfort the crying baby, you drop an empty envelope from a church mailing into the paper bin...as it begins to leave your hand, you think "am I disrepecting a holy envelope? But if I stop to consider it, I'm negelecting the baby! That's also a sin! AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!" And then there's an echo chamber in your head for a month in which you accuse yourself of sinning by dropping the envelope, sinning by considering neglecting the baby, sinning by justifying yourself when you try to escape from the thoughts, and sinning by obsessing over sin. And finally you go to confession / talk to your pastor / an elder and he says "you're confessing that you recycled a used envelope? Is there more to this story?"

And in that case or similar ones, I think one can be mistaken. I see now that maybe it wasn't so important to post this....

I believe very much in the concept St. Augustine espoused......
"Love God with all your heart, and desire to live for Him... then do as you feel. Thus loving and desiring, your actions will not, then, dishonor your God." (Paraphrased... but you can look it up)

It saves having to carry a rule book around, or continually search out a Priest to tell you what to do.

 

[Willie T]

I am Orthodox - I recently changed my username as well as my faith listing, but not to cause trouble! You knew me as hengest.

But regardless of my name, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, which was my fault.

No, it was my fault. Anastasia and I both agreed that I should stay as far away from the EO forum as possible. But, I broke my own rule.

 

[archer75]

No, it was my fault. Anastasia and I both agreed that I should stay as far away from the EO forum as possible. But, I broke my own rule.

Well, at least this thread is going well?

As to the St. Augustine quote...that sounds good. No argument from me. But I, for one, am not there yet.

 

[Willie T]

Well, at least this thread is going well?

As to the St. Augustine quote...that sounds good. No argument from me. But I, for one, am not there yet.

Well, you and K and Matt seem different. Matt will probably make a great priest....... if his beard grows in right. (Sorry, couldn't resist. ☺ )

 

[Willie T]

Well, at least this thread is going well?

As to the St. Augustine quote...that sounds good. No argument from me. But I, for one, am not there yet.

More than likely, you are a lot closer to that gentleness of "living from your heart, rather than your head" kind of Jesus-ness than you might think.

Living from the rule book seems to breed intolerance. It infected the Pharisees.

 

[r4.h]

I think so - not for any theological reason but simply because I think it's possible to be mistaken. Especially in hindsight, but even in the moment.

In other words, I think it's possible to feel guilt about something that really wasn't wrong.

This came up in another thread. I thought I would bring it up here in case it becomes debate.

@Willie T

A prime example is those who think it is sin to eat meat, we are told not insist they are wrong or argue with them as they have a "weaker faith"
I would say this equates to a overly sensititive conscience, because animals are cute and killing to eat can seem brutal.
I grew up vegetarian but changed over once old enough to make up my own mind. However i did have doubts sometimes until i read Gods command to eat meat after the flood. Gen 9:3

 

[dreadnought]

I think so - not for any theological reason but simply because I think it's possible to be mistaken. Especially in hindsight, but even in the moment.

In other words, I think it's possible to feel guilt about something that really wasn't wrong.

This came up in another thread. I thought I would bring it up here in case it becomes debate.

@Willie T

The Lord gave us some commandments to follow, but the Pharisees were able to multiply those commandments. The Lord didn't mean for that to happen. He didn't want anybody to multiply his commandments.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, you and K and Matt seem different. Matt will probably make a great priest....... if his beard grows in right. (Sorry, couldn't resist. ☺ )

haha, thanks, although I am more confident about my beard than my priesthood. I gots a lot of work in that area.