Is it possible to be sinless for 5 seconds straight?

[~Anastasia~]

Definitions are important.

Are we saying you can't consider yourself on the path of salvation and go out and commit adultery every day because you're "already forgiven"? God forbid, I hope no one takes this as a license to sin.

Or are we saying that at the moment of conversion, we are perfectly delivered from the merest inclination to pride, are perfectly humble, would find it impossible to wish for a moment to have something our neighbor has, or ever eat more than need? That no tendency of the flesh can ever be present within us again? That's pure foolishness and ignorance of ourselves. We can battle these passions and overcome them, but it takes actual effort (and even then might not be fully achieved in this life - nor is it necessary that we do in order to "be saved" - but it is the right path to be on if we are wise and following Christ).

 

[aiki]

A favorite Strawman argument some will throw up in criticism of the idea of the sinning but born-again believer is that the possibility will always lead to licentiousness. The thinking supposedly is: If my sin doesn't pose a threat to my salvation, then I can - and will - sin extravagantly. Forget that the Holy Spirit convicts a person when they sin; forget the terrible pangs of broken fellowship (not relationship) with God; forget that a Christian's justification is entirely through Christ alone; forget that love is a far, far better motivator to obedience than fear; forget that the Holy Spirit positionally fully sanctifies a person the moment they are saved; forget that God disciplines His own in love. None of these things, the Strawman thinking goes, has any effect upon the person who knows their sin never jeopardizes their salvation. Anyone who isn't under the constant threat of lost salvation just won't live righteously. Fear must loom up at every turn and frighten the believer into obedience. To live completely in God's grace and love, is, apparently, a sure road to wickedness.

But Scripture dissolves this Strawman quite thoroughly:

Love, not fear, is the only motive for obedience God will accept. Not even martyrdom can earn God's approval if it is not done from a motive of love, first for Him, and then for others:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

God's love dissolves fear. Those who rely upon fear to motivate obedience, or operate from it in their fellowship with God, have not yet been perfected (made complete, fully matured) in their understanding and experience of His love:

1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

The Spirit is the power source for the believer's obedience to God (Philippians 2:13; Romans 8:11-13) just as he is the means of their spiritual regeneration and "baptism" into Christ (Titus 3:5). To begin one's walk with God by means of the work of the Spirit and then to rely upon one's success in obeying Him to sustain and secure that walk is, as Paul writes, foolish:

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The Fruit of the Spirit does not include fear.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Love is, notably, the first Fruit that the Spirit manifests in the truly born-again believer. Why, if fear is so vital a component to Christian living, does the Spirit not produce it more and more in the child of God? Paul the apostle explains:

Romans 8:15
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

2 Timothy 1:7
7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

What is not perhaps readily evident in the use of the fear-motive for walking with God is how carnal, how Self-centered, this motive actually is. Here's a quotation from a blog entry I made explaining this point:

"Carnal, fleshly Self is at the root of the legalistic, "do right or die" doctrine of the saved-and-lost crowd. Fear of death is how one motivates Self to act contrary to its natural course. Self is incorrigibly selfish (Ro. 8:7, 8; Ga. 5:19-20); it produces only more of itself. To get it to act self-sacrificially, which is the essential core of godly love, to act in contradiction to its natural selfish impulse, one must supply a selfish motive: Self-preservation. And so, ironically, even when Self appears to act self-sacrificially from a motive of fear, it is actually motivated by selfishness. And this is, at least in part, why God rejects it. Legalistic, fear-motivated "obedience" is not an expression of love for God but of love of Self."

 

[Neogaia777]

(Still on my phone) I do not want anyone to misunderstand me, I am not saying it's OK to sin or that we should just sin away or all we want, that is not what I am saying. The only people who will say that is the ones who will misunderstand what I am saying, much like what happened with Paul sometimes when he was addressing these issues. And besides that, what person in their right mind thinks that or would think that anyway. I do believe the inside of the cup needs to cleansed or clean before you have any hope at all of truly changing things that are on the outside and God is still working on my inside right now, and, until that is finished i don't see much hope of truly and lastingly truly changing anything on the outside of you/me. And all to many try to do it the other way around (and who do they think they are fooling, maybe themselves maybe, anyway) which does not work. At least, not for me anyway and it is God and his work(ing) in me that has to do that first. I have faith that as the inside gets clean the outside will follow it.

God Bless!

 

[Ken Rank]

First we have to define sin.
Sin according to scripture is, "transgression of the law" - 1 John 3:4

Consider sleeping. Do we transgress the law in the 7-8 hours we sleep? Do we transgress the law if we're praying in tongues, or prophesying? Or praising God?

If your answer is yes: If it's possible to be sinless for more than 5 seconds. Is it possible for 10 minutes, 1 week, 1 year, or the rest of your life?

If your answer is no: Explain how we transgress the law, within any given 5 seconds, while having the Holy Spirit living in us.



And it's not to say we are perfect if we are sinless. Like a girl who is defiled by a man, cannot be a virgin again. (perfect abstinence)
We were already defiled by sin. But there is an argument for being born again into clean garments.

There really isn't a yes or no here. I know we like yes and no questions but most things aren't that simple. You see, there are people who walk around all day and night and not sin. However, messiah revealed the depth of the law, the spirit of the law... as some examples he said that it isn't just a sin to commit adultery but to even lust in the heart for a woman is to have done that deed already. Or it is sin to murder but to hate your brother is like murdering him. So we can walk without breaking the physical laws but I don't think it is possible to walk without breaking the spirit or essence of the law. And even if we could, we are still born cursed from sin and still need to be perfected anyway.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(Still on my phone) I do not want anyone to misunderstand me, I am not saying it's OK to sin or that we should just sin away or all we want, that is not what I am saying. The only people who will say that is the ones who will misunderstand what I am saying, much like what happened with Paul sometimes when he was addressing these issues. And besides that, what person in their right mind thinks that or would think that anyway. I do believe the inside of the cup needs to cleansed or clean before you have any hope at all of truly changing things that are on the outside and God is still working on my inside right now, and, until that is finished i don't see much hope of truly and lastingly truly changing anything on the outside of you/me. And all to many try to do it the other way around (and who do they think they are fooling, maybe themselves maybe, anyway) which does not work. At least, not for me anyway and it is God and his work(ing) in me that has to do that first. I have faith that as the inside gets clean the outside will follow it.

God Bless!

(By the way, my post wasn't to say that you were advocating sin - only that it looked to me like people were talking past each other and misunderstanding one another. Was just trying to help. )

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think we could really know if we did or not.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked;
who can understand it?

Romans 7:18-20
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

Galatians 5:17
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

1 John 1:8
"If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us"

Yes, you can.

When you're performing a particular task given to you by through the Holy Spirit, doing it in the right way, at the right time, in the right place, with the right frame of mind, and you know it.

You're not sinning in that moment.

And it's totally cool.

 

[RDKirk]

You see sin as an act. I see it as a state of being. Some people seem to ascribe to a theory of punctuated perfection, wherein they think they are perfect in between their mistakes. It's a foolish notion, really. A man proves that he is a sinner now by the sin that he eventually commits, displaying his nature. Whether it takes a second or a year is only a matter of degree and circumstance, but a state of imperfection is a state of sin. If he goes to sleep with a sinful nature, then he is not sinless. If opportunity is the only thing lacking, then his success at refusing sin is meaningless, because he has refused nothing. A rat in a cage is no less a rat than the one crawling up the inside of the wall.

If sin is a state of being, then the answer must be "yes," or you're denying that we are new creations in Christ and that all the old has become new.

But, no, we in Christ are not "sinners" as a state of being. Those who are sinners in that way are those who are still slaves to sin, which we are not.

We may commit sins, but "sinner" is no longer what we are.

 

[RDKirk]

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Do you do nothing in faith?

 

[Neogaia777]

(By the way, my post wasn't to say that you were advocating sin - only that it looked to me like people were talking past each other and misunderstanding one another. Was just trying to help. )

I didn't think "you" were but thought i should add that just in case "some" might, and I thank you very much for you help (God knows I can use all the help I can get)...

God Bless You!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I didn't think "you" were but thought i should add that just in case "some" might, and I thank you very much for you help (God knows I can use all the help I can get)...

God Bless You!

Thank you for your kind words, and God bless you as well!

 

[Sketcher]

5 seconds? Yes. An hour? That's less likely.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't find that to be the requirement. Shooting for the right target though, and aiming for the bullseye, is a requirement. I think Christ pointed out what the bullseye was.

What was that...? (the bullseye)...? And what (or who) is the right target...? And I agree we should always "aim" for it... But were gonna miss a lot, especially at first, but might get better at as we practice... Is that what you mean or are trying to point out with like, "sin" for example... But too much doing it in our own will (especially alone) will lead one into deceiving themselves into thinking they are succeeding or making forward progress when they really are not, not really...

Being Sin focused or way to sin focused or centered, like it being the number one main primary issue, for example, will only lead to more sin if you ask me... Instead of always focusing on what we shouldn't do, maybe a lot more focus on what we should do, or should be doing (what is right and good) and being occupied with that, mentally, physically or whatever, instead of the "other focus", might make us see more overall true, real success with sin maybe...? Trying to be a blessing wherever you go... Serving others, that kind of thing...

The "do's" instead of the "do not's" so much... There is always promting's from within (H.S.) that tell us and let us know about all the very numerous opportunities to do what is right and good, in and at certain moments and times, though many have gotten use to ignoring it or shutting it out, unfortunately...

Anyhew...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Okay, first, I am not pushing Sinless Perfection here because I do not believe Sinless Perfection (generally speaking) deals with salvation. I am talking about overcoming grievous sins that the Bible mentions that leads to spiritual death (if they are not "repented of" [i.e. seeking forgiveness with the Lord] - which would of course include the nature fruits of repentance that would follow).

Second, Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14 says that the reason why Christ died for us was to make us holy, blameless, and zealous of good works. 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 5:9 both say that you have to obey (walk in the light) as a part of God's saving grace. 1 Thessalonians 4:7 says God does not call us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. Jude 1:4 warns about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. Peter warns us about false prophets who say that they cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).



You don't explain any of the verses I put forth, though. I am just to accept your interpretation of the Bible without any explanation on many verses that refutes your belief? Surely not. Also, there is the moral issue that you have to ignore, as well. Would not God have to agree with your idea that you can continue to commit grievous sin and still be saved? But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. GOD is holy. We are told in 1 Corinthians 2:16 that we have the mind of Christ. Did Christ ever justify sin? No. Neither should we if we are to have the mind of Christ (Which is holy because Jesus is GOD).



Not all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11). 1 John 5:16-17 says there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law like: Love, justice, faith, and mercy (See Luke 11:42, and Matthew 23:23). Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism is not for salvation. Yet, it is a command as a part of the great commission (Matthew 28:19). But Paul says that Christ did not send him to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). Psalms 19:12 talks about secret or hidden faults. Matthew 12:31-32 says that speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven and speaking bad words against the Son (Jesus) can be forgiven. The sin of worshiping the beast in the future is so bad to GOD that their names are not even written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). Even life teaches us that not all sin is the same. For do you consider the breaking of the Law of going over the speed limit by 5 miles per hour (in driving a motor vehicle) as the same as the crime as murder? Surely not.

So what about James 2:10?

Well, this is the only verse that suggests (at first glance with a quick reading) that all sin is the same, and a reader who does use this verse to support this view has to do at the expense of ignoring so many other verses in the Bible.

James here is not talking about ceremonial laws in the New Covenant like baptism, the Lord's supper, etc. James is talking about the "Royal Law" (i.e. to love your neighbor) (James 2:8).

8 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:8-11).​

So in verse 10: When James says if you keep the whole Law , he is referring to the whole of the Royal Law (in loving your neighbor) and if you offend in one point in the keeping of this whole law of loving your neighbor, you are guilty of breaking all of God's laws. Verse 11 confirms this by it saying, "Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." Paul says that loving your neighbor is the equivalent of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

Jason... No offense, but it's hard to know what your saying sometimes, or where you stand, on this, and other things... You seem to be standing at or on one place at one time, then another or others at other times...? Depending on who your talking to and how or where the conversation goes or leads...

For example (and I'm only going to us just one example) you seem to be saying that you have to be sinless in one instance, and then saying that you don't have to be, or even can't be totally sinless always and perpetually in this life, in another instance...

And then, and it seems now as if some of your posts now are trying to go "down the middle" by saying some sins are not as bad as others...? and some will take that to mean that you are saying some sins, what you'd classify as "minor" sins, are OK from time to time and forgivable and you don't lose your salvation with those, like you do or can with others that are more "major" and are not forgivable...? Or just what are you trying to say...? Could you clarify shortly and simply for us please...?

You used the example of going five miles an hour over the speed limit while driving, and comparing it to murder, so let's use that... I can only begin by telling you God does not see it that way at all... To him a lawbreaker is a lawbreaker, and were all lawbreakers equally to him, if we have transgressed even one, what we might think to be "minor", law... All lawbreakers all equally lawbreakers if we break even one rule or law, no matter how major or minor in our eyes...

So, where do you stand on this, or these things Jason...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Jason... No offense, but it's hard to know what your saying sometimes, or where you stand, on this, and other things... You seem to be standing at or on one place at one time, then another or others at other times...? Depending on who your talking to and how or where the conversation goes or leads...

For example (and I'm only going to us just one example) you seem to be saying that you have to be sinless in one instance, and then saying that you don't have to be, or even can't be totally sinless always and perpetually in this life, in another instance...

And then, and it seems now as if some of your posts now are trying to go "down the middle" by saying some sins are not as bad as others...? and some will take that to mean that you are saying some sins, what you'd classify as "minor" sins, are OK from time to time and forgivable and you don't lose your salvation with those, like you do or can with others that are more "major" and are not forgivable...? Or just what are you trying to say...? Could you clarify shortly and simply for us please...?

You used the example of going five miles an hour over the speed limit while driving, and comparing it to murder, so let's use that... I can only begin by telling you God does not see it that way at all... To him a lawbreaker is a lawbreaker, and were all lawbreakers equally to him, if we have transgressed even one, what we might think to be "minor", law... All lawbreakers all equally lawbreakers if we break even one rule or law, no matter how major or minor in our eyes...

So, where do you stand on this, or these things Jason...?

God Bless!

Any sin or sinning at all no matter how major or minor (in our eyes), in God's eyes is deserving of death (except their is only one, ONLY ONE sin or kind of sin not deserving of this, and unfortunately, the Bible doesn't really tell us what this one sin is, so I just going to leave that alone for now) But, in general, all and any kind of sin, no matter how major or minor in our eyes, is deserving of death, and under the OT law covenant that's what people got and get still from it today, that's it's curse... Until Christ came along that is, and how he changed all that, by taking our place, paying the penalty of death in our place, while fully and entirely living up to the demands of the OC law, cause he knew we could not...

But, if one is trying to be righteous and sinless in their own self, they automatically reject what Christ offers...

Anyway, I'm gonna stop there for now, cause I could go on, and on, and on, and on...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason... No offense, but it's hard to know what your saying sometimes, or where you stand, on this, and other things... You seem to be standing at or on one place at one time, then another or others at other times...? Depending on who your talking to and how or where the conversation goes or leads...

For example (and I'm only going to us just one example) you seem to be saying that you have to be sinless in one instance, and then saying that you don't have to be, or even can't be totally sinless always and perpetually in this life, in another instance...

And then, and it seems now as if some of your posts now are trying to go "down the middle" by saying some sins are not as bad as others...? and some will take that to mean that you are saying some sins, what you'd classify as "minor" sins, are OK from time to time and forgivable and you don't lose your salvation with those, like you do or can with others that are more "major" and are not forgivable...? Or just what are you trying to say...? Could you clarify shortly and simply for us please...?

You used the example of going five miles an hour over the speed limit while driving, and comparing it to murder, so let's use that... I can only begin by telling you God does not see it that way at all... To him a lawbreaker is a lawbreaker, and were all lawbreakers equally to him, if we have transgressed even one, what we might think to be "minor", law... All lawbreakers all equally lawbreakers if we break even one rule or law, no matter how major or minor in our eyes...

So, where do you stand on this, or these things Jason...?

God Bless!

This is the problem. I have already shown you proof in Scripture that not all laws are the same. Even life teaches you that not all laws are the same because our own soceity does not treat all offenses as being the same. This is important to understand because Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. They are called Parables. In fact, a Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable of her own and Jesus commended her faith for it. You do not regard all offenses as being the same; And neither does God. I already showed this fact and you simply do not want to see it. Unless of course you want to take each verse I posted one by one and explain them.

If not, then good day to you, dear sir;
And may God's goodness be upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not sure how people can read the following verse and think.... I can sin and still be saved.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
(Matthew 7:23).

 

[Neogaia777]

This is the problem. I have already shown you proof in Scripture that not all laws are the same. Even life teaches you that not all laws are the same because our own soceity does not treat all offenses as being the same. This is important to understand because Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. They are called Parables. In fact, a Canaanite woman expounded upon Jesus's parable with a continued parable of her own and Jesus commended her faith for it. You do not regard all offenses as being the same; And neither does God. I already showed this fact and you simply do not want to see it. Unless of course you want to take each verse I posted one by one and explain them.

If not, then good day to you, dear sir;
And may God's goodness be upon you today.

I just want to know where "you" stand, and I'm getting rather tired of arguing... So how about just simply telling us that, K...? Or lets start with that at least, K...? No beating around the bush, just tell us...?

God Bless You Jason!

 

[aiki]

You do not regard all offenses as being the same; And neither does God.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Here's a list of seven things God hates, that He regards as abominable. The list includes both an arrogant look on a person's face and murder. Why do they occupy the same list? Surely, a proud look cannot be as great a sin as murder. And yet, here they are grouped together. Interesting, no?

 

[Neogaia777]

Not sure how people can read the following verse and think.... I can sin and still be saved.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
(Matthew 7:23).

Well , let's not take that out of it's context shall we...? What does it say just before that in Matthew 7:21-22 mainly... Who is it addressed to...? People committing what kind of specific sin or iniquity exactly...? Cause in this instance, it actually does tell us specifically and plainly and exactly and is an excellent example of how many have twisted this out of it's context to mean, or apply to people and person's it is just not meant to apply to... Many have used it as a fear tactic, when they have quoted or stated it or said it out of it's context...

Very good example Jason, glad you brought it up...

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Here's a list of seven things God hates, that He regards as abominable. The list includes both an arrogant look on a person's face and murder. Why do they occupy the same list? Surely, a proud look cannot be as great a sin as murder. And yet, here they are grouped together. Interesting, no?

I am not sure how this helps your belief.
Do you know who George Sodini is?

What stops a person from being the next George Sodini if they hear your message that future sin is forgiven them?

To learn more about George Sodini, check out this article here.

King David was not saved in his sins of adultery and murder. If he was, then we can all just forget about living holy and just sin to the extreme and we will all be saved in the end. But that is not how it works, though. God is good, and His people are good, too.