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Is it possible that the earth is only 6,000 or so years old?

Assyrian

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Agreed for the most.
:)

That was jus a joke. I didn't mean day 8 literally.
I wasn't talking of the length of it so much as you seeming to set it after the seventh day.

Agreed, if we are talking about Genesis 2. Genesis 1 is different.
Don't see how it makes a difference if it is talking about chapter 1 or 2, chapter two covers the creation of plants (day three) birds (day six) animals and man woman (day seven) Neither chapter fits a literal in the day God created he heavens and the earth.

I am not excluding metaphors at all but only if the writer is explaining something we can't understand such as parables, prophecy, or poetry. Genesis is none of these. But still some words may have two meanings. Read in context, it all makes sense.
Have you considered that the simple message you see in Genesis, so simple that doesn't need parables or poetry to explain it, is because you are taking the parable and metaphor literally and missing the deeper meanings God is speaking to us through them? Or that God has the heart of a poet and loves to speak to us like that anyway?

I can't see it any other way. Could you explain to me why how it may be something different please?
If Genesis doesn't say it was done in six days, then the numbered days don't necessarily mean six consecutive days. Genesis 1:5 doesn't mean 'the first day' the Hebrew is 'one day', so you could have had a vast work of creation described in Gen 1:1-5a which come to completion as evening falls 'one day'. In fact if you look at how the Israelites measured their days, they started in the evening, which means 'one day' only starts in Gen 1:5b all that happened in the previous verses was before day one began. The next numbered day isn't called 'the second day' which is how consecutive days are counted throughout the OT. Instead it is 'a second day' which could be vast ages later. Same with 'a third day all the way up to 'the sixth day' but the sixth day special from our point of view, so was 'the seventh day'. Now using a completely different counting system for the days does mean there have to be gaps, but it does suggest there may be something different going on and not to assume it is simply six ordinary days.

Personally I take the six day creation as a metaphorical description of the creation to teach the Israelites Sabbath observance, which is how Moses used the story in Exodus 20, while the Sabbath itself was a shadow, a metaphor prophesying Christ and the rest we have in him through the cross (Col 2:17 and Heb 3&4). So the seventh day of creation is actually a prophetic picture of the cross and our eternal life in God, but so is the tree of life (he bore our sin on the tree, eat of it and we live forever) and of coure the seed of the women being bitten by the snake.
 
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Incariol

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Could all the scientific evidence that says the earth is around 4.54 billion years old be wrong?

Yes, it is just unlikely to the point of absurdity.

Is it possible that God used super natural methods to create everything and we are unable to measure these?

Not if you believe the Bible, and its descriptions of God's character, to be true.

Is this the best science can do or are scientist blinded by satan to the possiblity that the earth is around 6,000 years old?

Doesn't the bible say that some people's minds are blinded?

We are "blinded" by our own intelligence, logic and basic understanding of statistics. If you think that's a bad thing, well, too bad.
 
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SkyWriting

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Assyrian

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ViaCrucis

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Six days? Or all at once?

"He that lives forever created all things together. God only shall be justified, and He remains an invincible King forever. Who is able to declare His works? For who shall search out His glorious acts?" - Sirach 18:1-3

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SkyWriting

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What have these verse got to do with the fact Genesis doesn't say the world was created in six days?


Genesis is a collection of books from various sources.
There is some evidence that it had one editor.
No one is sure. So why you'd base your religion on
only the content of Genesis is baffling. But to each
his own. I'm a whole gospel person myself.
 
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Assyrian

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Genesis is a collection of books from various sources.
There is some evidence that it had one editor.
No one is sure. So why you'd base your religion on
only the content of Genesis is baffling. But to each
his own.
What would make you think I am basing my religion on the book of Genesis? I do try to base my understanding of the text of Genesis on text of Genesis, in fact I base my understanding each text in the collection of books in Genesis on that text, in other words I don't try to change the meaning of Genesis 2 to fit my understanding of Genesis 1. It is when you understand what the text says that you can go on and ask what it means. That is when you can also look at how other writers in the bible interpret the text. Creationists have a problem of assuming other writers like Moses are interpreting the text literally and then using that to reinforce their own literal interpretation of Genesis, but that mean missing out on seeing how inspired writer really treat the text you have studied.

I'm a whole gospel person myself.
It is interesting once you go beyond literalism, how many prophetic pictures of the cross there are in Genesis. The seventh day rest is a shadow of Christ (Col 2:17 and Heb 3&4). You have the serpent striking the seed heel but being crushed. There is the tree of life, Jesus is the true vine tree, he bore our sins on the tree, we eat of this tree of life and we live forever.
 
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SkyWriting

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What would make you think I am basing my religion on the book of Genesis? I do try to base my understanding of the text of Genesis on text of Genesis, in fact I base my understanding each text in the collection of books in Genesis on that text, in other words I don't try to change the meaning of Genesis 2 to fit my understanding of Genesis 1. It is when you understand what the text says that you can go on and ask what it means. That is when you can also look at how other writers in the bible interpret the text. Creationists have a problem of assuming other writers like Moses are interpreting the text literally and then using that to reinforce their own literal interpretation of Genesis, but that mean missing out on seeing how inspired writer really treat the text you have studied.

It is interesting once you go beyond literalism, how many prophetic pictures of the cross there are in Genesis. The seventh day rest is a shadow of Christ (Col 2:17 and Heb 3&4). You have the serpent striking the seed heel but being crushed. There is the tree of life, Jesus is the true vine tree, he bore our sins on the tree, we eat of this tree of life and we live forever.

You can't get to that point until you trust what it plainly says first.
Higher Criticism comes second to the plain message first.
Scholars don't get first dibs.
Who did Jesus scold? Scholars.
Who did He defend? Hookers.
 
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Kirkwhisper

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You can't get to that point until you trust what it plainly says first.
Higher Criticism comes second to the plain message first.
Scholars don't get first dibs.
Who did Jesus scold? Scholars.
Who did He defend? Hookers.

They begin with symbols and analogies. God begins with facts.
 
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Assyrian

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You can't get to that point until you trust what it plainly says first.
Jesus taught his disciple how to understand parable and metphors not to take everything literally.

Higher Criticism comes second to the plain message first.
Scholars don't get first dibs.
Who did Jesus scold? Scholars.
Who did He defend? Hookers.
Not sure he was recommending that either. Jesus problem with the the scholars was the way they kept condemning everybody else and binding them up in man made laws, but he chose a scholar Paul to be apostle to the Gentiles.
 
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Assyrian

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There is a vast difference in a scholar that is led by the Holy Spirit and one that is not.
Yes there is a vast difference, yet when dealing with scholarship the most important question a scholar who is led by Holy Spirit has to ask is not 'was the other scholar led by the Holy Spirit', but 'is it true'. That is what the Bereans asked, not whether Paul was led by the Spirit, but instead checked the scriptures to see if these things are true.

Interestingly while skywriting probably wouldn't agree with Wellhouse, he seems to have taken on board seom of the main findings of the Documentary Hypothesis:
Genesis is a collection of books from various sources.
There is some evidence that it had one editor.
 
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Gozreht

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Don't see how it makes a difference if it is talking about chapter 1 or 2, chapter two covers the creation of plants (day three) birds (day six) animals and man woman (day seven) Neither chapter fits a literal in the day God created he heavens and the earth.
It does if you keep it all in context. You already agreed that the two accounts may be different. One is saying day as DAY. The other starts differently and is referring to the past of DAYS.

Have you considered that the simple message you see in Genesis, so simple that doesn't need parables or poetry to explain it, is because you are taking the parable and metaphor literally and missing the deeper meanings God is speaking to us through them? Or that God has the heart of a poet and loves to speak to us like that anyway?
Does God ever speak directly to us or does He always speak in riddles? Both ways.

If Genesis doesn't say it was done in six days, then the numbered days don't necessarily mean six consecutive days. Genesis 1:5 doesn't mean 'the first day' the Hebrew is 'one day', so you could have had a vast work of creation described in Gen 1:1-5a which come to completion as evening falls 'one day'. In fact if you look at how the Israelites measured their days, they started in the evening, which means 'one day' only starts in Gen 1:5b all that happened in the previous verses was before day one began. The next numbered day isn't called 'the second day' which is how consecutive days are counted throughout the OT. Instead it is 'a second day' which could be vast ages later. Same with 'a third day all the way up to 'the sixth day' but the sixth day special from our point of view, so was 'the seventh day'. Now using a completely different counting system for the days does mean there have to be gaps, but it does suggest there may be something different going on and not to assume it is simply six ordinary days.
I see what you are saying but then that would not be very linear with God setting up the sabbath. A week is consecutive.

Personally I take the six day creation as a metaphorical description of the creation to teach the Israelites Sabbath observance, which is how Moses used the story in Exodus 20, while the Sabbath itself was a shadow, a metaphor prophesying Christ and the rest we have in him through the cross (Col 2:17 and Heb 3&4). So the seventh day of creation is actually a prophetic picture of the cross and our eternal life in God, but so is the tree of life (he bore our sin on the tree, eat of it and we live forever) and of coure the seed of the women being bitten by the snake.
Not bad...
 
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Assyrian

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Don't see how it makes a difference if it is talking about chapter 1 or 2, chapter two covers the creation of plants (day three) birds (day six) animals and man woman (day seven) Neither chapter fits a literal in the day God created he heavens and the earth.
It does if you keep it all in context. You already agreed that the two accounts may be different. One is saying day as DAY. The other starts differently and is referring to the past of DAYS.
Sorry I don't follow what you are trying to say here, or how it answers my point.

Does God ever speak directly to us or does He always speak in riddles? Both ways.
Which is really important for us to recognise. You haven't tried to defend you arguments for Genesis being literal, so lets move on from there.

But once you realise God can and does speak in metaphor poetry parable and symbol, and that he may very well have been speaking this way in the Genesis creation accounts, there really is no reason to keep holding onto a literal interpretation that has been completely contradicted by science, or to try to rethink science to make it fit a literalist interpretation of Genesis. It fits Genesis better too because there is no reason to rearrange the sequence of Genesis 2 to make it fit the literal interpretation of Genesis 1.

I see what you are saying but then that would not be very linear with God setting up the sabbath. A week is consecutive.
It doesn't line up anyway, even if you do interpret the days of Genesis literally. The days in Genesis ran from morning to morning, Hebrew calendar days and Sabbath observance began in the evening. Now if they were observing the Sabbath because God literally set that particular day of the week aside as holy, then their observance of the holy day was half a day out.

But it wasn't the length of God's days that were important adn we see the same Sabbath patter in the seven weeks from Passover to Firstfruits / Pentecost, in the seventh year sabbath of the land and freeing slaves, and the seven weeks of years to the Year of Jubilee.

You just need the imagery to get the point across, the God of all eternity didn't have to fit his work of creation to the work schedule of a human labourer. It is not as if God was literally refreshed after a day's rest (Exodus 31:17) it is an anthropomorphic metaphor where God is identifying with the weary labourer in the field.

Not bad...
Cheers :)
 
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Gozreht

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Sorry I don't follow what you are trying to say here, or how it answers my point.
As I stated earlier, since Genesis 1 starts of with In the Begining and talks about "day" and Genesis 2 starts with In the Day, these are two different time periods. If you read it all in context with noun/verb/topic/adjective/whatever agreements then it is grammatcially correct.

Which is really important for us to recognise. You haven't tried to defend you arguments for Genesis being literal, so lets move on from there.
I have but it may be on the other three threads this discussioin is happening with. Plus, I don't need to "defend". God will do that Himself. I don't need to prove "my side". All i can do is witness and allow the Spirit to move the other person, if they are willing to let the Spirit move. But ask me something specific what you want to know. I can't remember where I have said anything. I can give you all my postings on my blog. I write a lot about the subject.

But once you realise God can and does speak in metaphor poetry parable and symbol, and that he may very well have been speaking this way in the Genesis creation accounts, there really is no reason to keep holding onto a literal interpretation that has been completely contradicted by science, or to try to rethink science to make it fit a literalist interpretation of Genesis. It fits Genesis better too because there is no reason to rearrange the sequence of Genesis 2 to make it fit the literal interpretation of Genesis 1.
I have never denied metaphors, similies, analogies, allegories, parables or anything of the like being used in the Bible. But some people say Genesis 1 is poetic. But then they say Genesis 47 (or somewhere close) is not. Even then is Exodus poetic? When does the Bible stop being "poetic". Judaism has claimed these are historic books. I agree. Now are there metaphors in there? Yes. But why pick on Genesis 1? Just because sceintists have said it doesn't fit their theories? 30 years ago we had the incredile edicble egg then 20 years ago eggs were bad to eat for you due to high cholestral, now they say they aren't as bad as what they thought. Pluto was considered a planet in my school days, now it is a dwarf planet. Science has laws and I will argue with those, but scientists use flawed data. It is also not completely contradictory to science, just scientist data.

It doesn't line up anyway, even if you do interpret the days of Genesis literally. The days in Genesis ran from morning to morning, Hebrew calendar days and Sabbath observance began in the evening. Now if they were observing the Sabbath because God literally set that particular day of the week aside as holy, then their observance of the holy day was half a day out.
They didn't run night to morning? There was evening and there was morning, the nth day. I could be wrong, where does it say morning to morning as a day (24 hour)?

But it wasn't the length of God's days that were important adn we see the same Sabbath patter in the seven weeks from Passover to Firstfruits / Pentecost, in the seventh year sabbath of the land and freeing slaves, and the seven weeks of years to the Year of Jubilee.
They were consecutive time periods. The seven weeks weren't any seven weeks, and so forth.

You just need the imagery to get the point across, the God of all eternity didn't have to fit his work of creation to the work schedule of a human labourer. It is not as if God was literally refreshed after a day's rest (Exodus 31:17) it is an anthropomorphic metaphor where God is identifying with the weary labourer in the field.
Never doubted it.
 
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Assyrian

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As I stated earlier, since Genesis 1 starts of with In the Begining and talks about "day" and Genesis 2 starts with In the Day, these are two different time periods. If you read it all in context with noun/verb/topic/adjective/whatever agreements then it is grammatcially correct.
You need to specify the noun/verb/topic/adjective that backs up your case rather than just claiming it supports your interpretation. Not sure how 'day' and 'in the day' mean we are talking about two different time periods either. But you haven't tackled the real problem that 'in the day' isn't a literal use of the word day because the word 'these', Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, refers either to the six day creation account in chapter 1 or the creation account in chapter 2, which starts before the creation of plants and covers the creation of birds, animals man and woman, which span days three to six in chapter 1. So even if it refers to chapter two 'in the day' isn't a literal single day.

I have but it may be on the other three threads this discussioin is happening with.
I don't recall anybody here else addressing the misunderstanding of yours that I was talking about, or made the same point I made, so I don't know how you could have addressed my point in other threads. I think it is very significant that Creationists have to keep switching arguments, thinking "I can't answer that but here is another argument for creationism instead." I have yet to come across an argument that does hold up.

Plus, I don't need to "defend". God will do that Himself.
I don't think God has ever promised to defend your interpretation of scripture.

I don't need to prove "my side". All i can do is witness and allow the Spirit to move the other person, if they are willing to let the Spirit move.
If it is the Holy Spirit teaching you to interpret Genesis literally. But claiming the Holy Spirit mnoved you isn't an argument either because we are told to test every spirit and every prophesy.

1Cor 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
1Thess 5:20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

I am with the Bereans on this on this one, examining the Scriptures to see if these things were so (Acts 17:11), and your arguments don't hold up.

But ask me something specific what you want to know. I can't remember where I have said anything. I can give you all my postings on my blog. I write a lot about the subject.
Just follow the links in the posts back, you can see what you skipped.

I have never denied metaphors, similies, analogies, allegories, parables or anything of the like being used in the Bible. But some people say Genesis 1 is poetic. But then they say Genesis 47 (or somewhere close) is not. Even then is Exodus poetic? When does the Bible stop being "poetic".
Let me get this straight you recognise that there are metaphors, similes, analogies, allegories, parables are used in the bible, but because you think it is difficult to decide where poetry and metaphor end, we should just take it all literally?

Judaism has claimed these are historic books. I agree.
In the first century, Jews from Josephus, a priest in Jerusalem, to Hellenistic Jews like Philo of Alexandria thought the creation accounts were allegorical (Josephus thought the allegory began in chapter two).

Now are there metaphors in there? Yes. But why pick on Genesis 1? Just because sceintists have said it doesn't fit their theories?
It is the reason we stopped taking the geocentric passages literally when Copernicus showed it was the earth that went round the sun. In fact, when the church eventually got round to reinterpreting the the texts Copernicus showed we got wrong, they were following a much older principle of interpretation going back to Augustine and Aquinas, that if science contradicts and interpretation of scripture, then that interpretation was never the true meaning of the text.

30 years ago we had the incredile edicble egg then 20 years ago eggs were bad to eat for you due to high cholestral, now they say they aren't as bad as what they thought.
That is simply an exercise in balancing risk versus benefits, eggs were always nutritious but high blood cholesterol was a serious risk factor for heart disease. At the time the best way to reduce cholesterol was to cut down intake in the diet. We now have better ways to reduce cholesterol levels through cutting back on trans fats, saturated fats and through medication. Before we had those approaches, people with heart disease or high cholesterol needed to cut down drastically on the cholesterol in their diet and it was a judgment call whether this was important for the general population too, whether or not the nutritional benefits of eggs outweighed the increased risk across the whole population of the slight increase in cholesterol it brought.

Pluto was considered a planet in my school days, now it is a dwarf planet.
You are not seriously bringing up a change in how the label planet is classified?

Science has laws and I will argue with those, but scientists use flawed data. It is also not completely contradictory to science, just scientist data.
We have vastly more evidence confirming evolution and the age of the earth than we had for heliocentrism when the church changed its mistaken geocentric interpretations. Augustine warned us long ago that when Christians contradict science because of their interpretation of the bible, it brings the bible and the the gospel into disrepute. What would have happened if the church back then followed your approach and was still teaching geocentrism when Apollo astronauts stood on the moon watching the earth rotating?

They didn't run night to morning? There was evening and there was morning, the nth day. I could be wrong, where does it say morning to morning as a day (24 hour)?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.
3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'

Presumably you would say verses 1 to 4 are part of day one. What about verse 6, creating a firmament part of day one, or was it second day?
What was the last part of the day mentioned in day one?

They were consecutive time periods. The seven weeks weren't any seven weeks, and so forth.
The Genesis days don't need to be consecutive to be a metaphorical illustration of the various Sabbaths days weeks, years, weeks of years in the OT Law. The value of a metaphor is what it illustrates, not what the metaphor doesn't cover. I wasn't arguing they weren't consecutive there, I was arguing that the duration wasn't important. You don't seem to be able to address my actual arguments.

You just need the imagery to get the point across, the God of all eternity didn't have to fit his work of creation to the work schedule of a human labourer. It is not as if God was literally refreshed after a day's rest (Exodus 31:17) it is an anthropomorphic metaphor where God is identifying with the weary labourer in the field.
Never doubted it.
So when Moses used the six day creation and God resting on the seventh to teach Sabbath observance, it was a metaphor?
 
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SkyWriting

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So when Moses used the six day creation and God resting on the seventh to teach Sabbath observance, it was a metaphor?

Like when Jesus died for our Sins, type of Metaphor.
Like Him being the Messiah type of Metaphor.
 
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