Is it pagan to cremate?

MarkRohfrietsch

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Indeed, but if we just wanted the sanitary anti-microbial benefits, it seems to me like that could be obtained less expensively, even though I would agree with you that embalming does a better job. Although if we went with irradiation, we could kill all microbial life in the deceased while making them only slightly radioactive through neutron activation, which would be fine for the closed casket scenario.
Certainly, this can be achieved; with external washing and disinfection; refrigeration is an option also.

Some exceptions... Canadian law prohibits transportation of human remains on "public carriers" Plains, trains trucks and ships without embalming. Likewise for transportation across international borders. Because of these laws, Jews and Muslims consent to embalming when remains are being sent home for burial.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't think it's crypto-docetism at all

Forgive me but I may have failed to make my position clear. I am not alleging that all cremation is crypto-Docetic, rather, only where there is an unjustifiable failure to conduct a proper funeral and burial of the ashes.

However I did intend say that cremation is can be iconoclastic, emphasis on the word “can” (since due to propaganda from cremation providers and supporters most people do not think about this aspect and are not sufficiently rooted in iconographic theology to recognize iconoclasm anyway), since it represents a destruction of the most perfect icon of Christ.
 
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(I personally find claims that burial inherently is more respectful of the image of God in the person, completely unconvincing, and I hope you would understand that I would reject claims that this indicates a less "vibrant and well informed Protestant Christian faith"

Since you advocated for reverent services for cremated persons earlier in the thread, my post was not targeted with your position in mind.

What I was characterizing as a less vibrant and well informed Protestant position is where the cremains are simply discarded or handled in an irreverant manner, to clarify.

Now, I do maintain cremation can be iconoclastic, but the iconoclasm must be intentional since people unfamiliar with iconographic theology are not going to recognize or understand the argument from iconography.

Ultimately however this is why I advocate that the church provide more aspects of the funeral service to the parishioners, and take care of things that are presently handled by for-profit companies, and that is in order to provide a theologically sound memorial with integrated pastoral care and indeed via, in the US, the connection between churches and healthcare providers, integrated faith-sensitive grief counseling via licensed mental health clinicians (counselors, psychologists, etc) who are of the same faith as the loved one and their survivors.
 
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Certainly, this can be achieved; with external washing and disinfection; refrigeration is an option also.

Some exceptions... Canadian law prohibits transportation of human remains on "public carriers" Plains, trains trucks and ships without embalming. Likewise for transportation across international borders. Because of these laws, Jews and Muslims consent to embalming when remains are being sent home for burial.

Although correct me if I’m wrong, while refrigeration has an anti-microbial effect, it would not be as thorough as embalming, unless the refrigeration was to an extremely cold temperature, and likewise, external washing is not sufficient to destroy the microbial culture that is largely responsible post mortem for decomposition, hence the need for embalming. Unless, hypothetically, one could render the body biologically inert through a large radiation dose, one sufficient to kill the bacteria inside, using the same process presently used to preserve foods such as dairy products and also certain medicines through irradiation (which can be highly effective).

Unfortunately there are not many commercial irradiation facilities that could be retrofitted for the processing of human remains; there are some, but most are designed to irradiate smaller objects at lower doses. The advantage of irradiation would be a reduced cost for burials and a less invasive process compared to a chemically based embalming procedure. The only slight disadvantage would be low-level radioactivity of the deceased due to possible neutron activation resulting from the breakdown of ionized particles. Alpha radiation, which is particularly destructive to living organisms, which consists of helium molecules stripped of electrons, would be particularly useful if it could be introduced into the digestive tract via an apparatus (since unfortunately alpha particles will be stopped by the skin, which is of benefit while we are alive as it makes them more of an ingestion hazard, but it requires more reliance on beta decay and gamma decay when processing a person. Beta radiation of course consists of electrons, and gamma radiation consists of light at an extremely short wavelength beyond the realm of X-rays (which are also ionizing, but not on the level of gamma rays).
 
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joshua28

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Not only does it seem to be acceptable, but Paul considered it an act to be admired, like feeding the poor:

1 Corinthians 13:3 YLT
3 and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned,
and have not love, I am profited nothing.

But are we making this a new law to be observed and hinge our salvation on it? Like being circumcized or making a daily sacrifice? How far shall we take this observance? If we are just dust and ashes to start with, and if we all return to dust and ashes in the end, what difference does the mode of our decomposition make? Science tells us that the decomposition of biomatter is just a super slow-motion burning anyway.
I think this would fall under the Heb 6:1 doctrine of repentance of dead works, where we should stop trying to approach or please God with the dead works of religion and the flesh. Our righteousness and standing with God are not based on circumcision, what we eat, or how our bodies are disposed of. Our righteousness is based on faith in His death, burial, and resurrection. Anything other than that is a doctrine of works and adding to the gospel. Whatever we do, we do it in faith. That is what makes it acceptable to God.
No, Paul was not speaking of cremation in 1 Cor. 13:3. That is a misuse of Scripture. If that were what Paul were teaching, we should see both Testaments presenting multiple examples of where believers cremated others and were lauded for doing so.

Your final paragraph is totally irrelevant. No one in this thread has even remotely suggested that they are saved by their own good works or that we earn righteousness before God by what we do.
 
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The Liturgist

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No, Paul was not speaking of cremation in 1 Cor. 13:3. That is a misuse of Scripture. If that were what Paul were teaching, we should see both Testaments presenting multiple examples of where believers cremated others and were lauded for doing so.

Your final paragraph is totally irrelevant. No one in this thread has even remotely suggested that they are saved by their own good works or that we earn righteousness before God by what we do.

Indeed so, St. Paul was providing an extreme scenario of giving away everything to the poor and neglecting even his own funeral, which would have resulted in the Pagan Roman Empire cremating him likely with other bodies, in order to say that if he engaged in such supererogatory almsgiving without love being the motivating factor, it would be worthless.

However such a case of supererogation which is not required of us by God would still be wrong in the cremation process itself, because to cremate a human body according to Jewish and Christian doctrine would not itself be loving. Indeed I would note that part of the extreme example St. Paul provides is that it lacks any love for the divine image; while in Christianity we are not to love ourselves*, we are to love God, and we are to respect the body, even our own, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and treat it accordingly. On this basis I reject tattoos as generally sinful and am prepared to tolerate them only among certain Middle Eastern and Herzegovinian Christians who use them as a means of reducing the risk of their child being forcibly converted to Islam without at least being aware of their Christian origins, since the cross on the right wrist serves as an ever-present visible reminder of baptism. Among the Maori people and other Pacific Islanders likewise I am prepared to tolerate it, but without the deep religious respect that I have for the practice among Christians, and that is mainly because of certain injustices committed by Europeans against Pacific Islanders. That said, at a future time it would be ideal to discourage them from the practice. Right now tattooing has become something of an epidemic, with even police departments permitting extensive visible tattoos including “sleeves.”

Thus, we cannot cremate ourselves without doing violence to the Divine Image, but most of us are not aware of this, and there are some people who find the natural process of decomposition to be so disturbing they would rather be cremated so as to avoid being in that state. However, this is a mistake on their part, an error, and one that results I think from a lack of veneration of sacred relics of the departed saints; our veneration of these relics which include skulls, bones and also miraculously incorrupt parts of bodies or entire bodies results in Orthodox and Catholic Christians being able to recognize the image of the divine even in those who have reposed in a state of grace, and whose remains are thus blessed and have not completely decomposed, and in many cases exhibit other supernatural properties, for example, myrhh-streaming (which is widespread, the most famous case being the myrhh-gushing skeletal remains of St. Nicholas of Myra, which were stolen by the Venetians if I recall, and are now in an Italian town called Bari, but which continue to stream myrrh which the Catholics make available to Orthodox pilgrims, as they did before they were expropriated).

I myself while on a pilgrimage to the Monastery of St. Anthony in Florence, Arizona, had the opportunity to venerate the skull of St. Joseph the Hesychast, in 2015, which was an extraordinary experience, along with my encounter with Elder Ephraim, memory eternal, who was a sincerely loving Christian who sought to keep the fire alive in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, which is controversial among the Eastern Orthodox due to its various problems with ethnocentricity and modernism, which have unfortunately lead to many people joining the ranks of the schismatic Old Calendarist churches, some of which in my opinion have cult-like features. I have had consistently unpleasant experiences with certain Old Calendarists, perhaps because I disagree with their fundamental assertion that all ecumenical dialogue constitutes a “pan-heresy.”

*indeed some Church Fathers speak negatively of self-esteem (although what they mean by it is not how it is used today, to represent the basic confidence and security that many children lack, but unfortunately in our society we have used the phrase “low self-esteem” to refer to this problem, which can be the result of poor parenting, or bullying, or many other things, but which is an acute suffering on the part of children).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Although correct me if I’m wrong, while refrigeration has an anti-microbial effect, it would not be as thorough as embalming, unless the refrigeration was to an extremely cold temperature, and likewise, external washing is not sufficient to destroy the microbial culture that is largely responsible post mortem for decomposition, hence the need for embalming. Unless, hypothetically, one could render the body biologically inert through a large radiation dose, one sufficient to kill the bacteria inside, using the same process presently used to preserve foods such as dairy products and also certain medicines through irradiation (which can be highly effective).

Unfortunately there are not many commercial irradiation facilities that could be retrofitted for the processing of human remains; there are some, but most are designed to irradiate smaller objects at lower doses. The advantage of irradiation would be a reduced cost for burials and a less invasive process compared to a chemically based embalming procedure. The only slight disadvantage would be low-level radioactivity of the deceased due to possible neutron activation resulting from the breakdown of ionized particles. Alpha radiation, which is particularly destructive to living organisms, which consists of helium molecules stripped of electrons, would be particularly useful if it could be introduced into the digestive tract via an apparatus (since unfortunately alpha particles will be stopped by the skin, which is of benefit while we are alive as it makes them more of an ingestion hazard, but it requires more reliance on beta decay and gamma decay when processing a person. Beta radiation of course consists of electrons, and gamma radiation consists of light at an extremely short wavelength beyond the realm of X-rays (which are also ionizing, but not on the level of gamma rays).
You might be on to something!!! Irradiation!

Cold or freezing only inhibits bacteria, some fungi, insects and enzymes, it is not anti-microbial, rather Bacteria-static. Well done chemical embalming is hard to beat
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Buddy or mini urns are becoming popular so you can share uncle Louie's cremains with all in attendance.

BTW, Canadian law considers the crematorium to be the place of final disposition; from that point on the "ashes" have no standing as mortal remains in Canadian law.
 
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The Liturgist

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Buddy or mini urns are becoming popular so you can share uncle Louie's cremains with all in attendance.

BTW, Canadian law considers the crematorium to be the place of final disposition; from that point on the "ashes" have no standing as mortal remains in Canadian law.

Indeed, and this just invites improper disposal.

You might be on to something!!! Irradiation!

Cold or freezing only inhibits bacteria, some fungi, insects and enzymes, it is not anti-microbial, rather Bacteria-static. Well done chemical embalming is hard to beat

Indeed, my thought is that irradiation would reduce the costs of burial by reducing the amount of time required to prepare the deceased through embalming, since it would kill off any microbes in the body. I would also note that with irradiation, like with embalming, no one who received it would need to fear being buried alive.

Cobalt 60 cylinders (or pellets, you might call them) are actually labelled “DROP AND RUN!” so radioactive are they. This is the type of extremely powerful source which can be used for food irradiation or the irradiation of medicine. My understanding is that for the most part it is regarded as too powerful for medical use (perhaps our friend, @Andrewn , might know whether or not Cobalt 60 is used as a radiation source in radiotherapy treatments for cancer, etc).

By the way, some of the most tragic and frightening radioactive disasters, accidents much worse than three mile island, have involved people in third world countries getting ahold of the radiation source from an abandoned radiotherapy facility and then taking it to a scrap yard, and then opening it, resulting in massive doses of radiation being sustained. When public safety agencies lose track of radiotherapy sources or other radioactive material it is known as an “Orphaned source” and it is really the stuff of nightmares. The Goiana tragedy in Brazil is one particularly terrifying example.

However, if used correctly, radiation is an extremely powerful tool for sterilization as well as for the generation of electrical power and other good and beneficial things. I myself love radiation as a force of nature owing to its ability to facilitate such high efficiency, and regard it as lamentable, but understandable, that people are so frightened of it, due to the spectre of nuclear war, but this has resulted in people being overly afraid of, for instance, nuclear power plants, despite the fact that only a few early nuclear power plants have had very horrible accidents (Fukushima was bad, but the radiation released from it was much less than Chernobyl, and it is now believed that the evacuation of the surrounding area did more harm than good, and Three Mile Island resulted in virtually no appreciable radiation release). I particularly like the design of the CANDU reactors used in your province of Canada, but sadly nowhere else, because of their design allowing for refueling without a complete shutdown, and Its ability to produce tritium and other substances needed if nuclear fusion ever becomes practical. CANDU plants also have very good safety systems, such as gravity-operated control rods which are suspended above the reactor by electromagnets, so in the event of a site blackout the control rods just fall into the reactor and smash it down into controllability (although one must still provide cooling, of course).
 
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Don't let anyone put you under their law and condemnation. There is no law in scripture about cremation.
Lord Bless!
True that, but there is also no exemption for honoring our Lord and his creation!
 
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Reading in the Psalms this morning, I came across this statement:

Psalm 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

The verse inerrantly reveals that having one's bones scattered in such a fashion was not a good thing. Applying this verse to the issue of what people should or should not do with "cremains" (I passionately hate this word) teaches us that . . .
 
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Reading in the Psalms this morning, I came across this statement:

Psalm 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

The verse inerrantly reveals that having one's bones scattered in such a fashion was not a good thing. Applying this verse to the issue of what people should or should not do with "cremains" (I passionately hate this word) teaches us that . . .

One should not scatter them since they are not, in fact, ashes, but rather consist of bone fragments, which are left intact in Japan but in the US and most other countries are pulverized using a machine called a cremulator.
 
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One should not scatter them since they are not, in fact, ashes, but rather consist of bone fragments, which are left intact in Japan but in the US and most other countries are pulverized using a machine called a cremulator.
Cremation has zero biblical justification. Scattering the "cremains" makes what has been done all the worse.
 
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Cremation has zero biblical justification. Scattering the "cremains" makes what has been done all the worse.

Indeed, we are of one accord. And I am pleased to see ecumenical consensus on this issue between Baptists like yourself, Confessional Lutherans like our friend @MarkRohfrietsch, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and members from a few other denominations.

By the way out of curiosity do you know of any Baptist churches which still have traditional hymns but stream to YouTube? I have been trying to find an exemplary Baptist parish, ideally SBC or some other traditional denomination.

I am descended from, among others, some Anglo-Dutch Baptists who were the first to settle in North America. And one thing I really appreciate about traditional Baptist denominations like the SBC is how, despite huge differences in theology, they have been willing to work with Catholics, Orthodox, Confessional Lutherans and other denominations on important issues like support of the Pro-Life movement and opposition to the promotion of sexual morality. Indeed I regard Dr. Albert Mohler as being on the forefront of moral theology among Western Christians since the repose of Dr. James Kennedy in 2007.
 
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joshua28

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By the way out of curiosity do you know of any Baptist churches which still have traditional hymns but stream to YouTube? I have been trying to find an exemplary Baptist parish, ideally SBC or some other traditional denomination.
My church is an independent Baptist church that uses only very conservative music. If you are looking for solid biblical ministry from God's Word, I commend our ministry to you for your consideration through the livestreaming of all our services:

 
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The Liturgist

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My church is an independent Baptist church that uses only very conservative music. If you are looking for solid biblical ministry from God's Word, I commend our ministry to you for your consideration through the livestreaming of all our services:


Alas if only you also uploaded to YouTube that would be perfect… Many extremely conservative churches stream to YouTube including Park Street Church, various LCMS and SBC parishes, many of the most conservative Orthodox churches, and many traditional Christians. Many of these churches also mark their streams as being child friendly so they are accessible by users with YouTube Kids accounts.
 
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Alas if only you also uploaded to YouTube that would be perfect… Many extremely conservative churches stream to YouTube including Park Street Church, various LCMS and SBC parishes, many of the most conservative Orthodox churches, and many traditional Christians. Many of these churches also mark their streams as being child friendly so they are accessible by users with YouTube Kids accounts.
As I have opportunity, I will try to ask someone in the leadership of my church about uploading to YouTube. I have no doubts about our livestream being entirely child friendly.
 
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