Is it pagan to cremate?

[The Liturgist]

This is not an endorsement.

Each year I have to take at least 6 hours of Professional Development training in order to renew my Funeral Director's License. During Covid the Government snuck in approval of a new disposal technology called Alkaline Hydrolysis or more popularly called "Aquamation". I know that the EO have universally rejected it; possibly the Catholic Church as well (although the CC did require a Dispensation to cremate back in the '80s, it is now OK here in Canada).

Personally, I find it repugnant. I see it as putting grannie in a pressure-cooker with a bunch of lye; cooking the heck out of her for 6-8 hours; chilling here down; infusing with CO2 to neutralize the PH; then pull the plug and flush the dissolved tissue into sewer (same one that the toilets are hooked up to. Then you still have to dry, and smash/crush the leftover bone chunks; and you end up with a pile of stuff too big for a regular urn, that won't fit in a standard columbarium.

For your viewing pleasure/displeasure:

Amen to that.

 

[The Liturgist]

But when you take into account my point about the reverent and prayerful interment of ashes, I think a lot of this objection fades.

I complefelt understand where you are coming from on this, but the main horror from my perspective, which is even more of a problem with newer crematoria in North America, Japan, China etc than opposed to some of the early British crematoria like Golders Green, which offer a relatively individual service with a commitment ceremony followed by the immediate charging of the coffin containing the deceassed into the retort or cremator, is that most newer crematoria are highly industrial facilities which are built for maximum throughput. And both these and the vile machines @MarkRohfrietsch and I are so disgusted by described in his posts suffer from problems of comingling, since the bone fragments scraped from the retort and crushed into what people call the ashes by another machine called the “cremulator” are invariably slightly intermixed with those from other cremations.

Now burial space is an issue, and in the US indigant persons are buried at government expense, while in the UK the United Synagogue to which most Orthodox Jews, who are also aghast at cremation, has a Burial Plan which makes it affordable and also ensures the other particular requirements of the Jewish funeral are adhered to. And we also see this among Orthodox Christians, but not on a more ecumenical scale readily accessible to all Christians who have qualms about cremation, which does include many persons in denominations where the practice is officially endorsed, for example, in the US many Episcopalians are still buried despite Episcopal churches increasingly featuring columbaria.

Now the items you mention of reverent burial help, and indeed most of my relatives who have reposed have been buried in that manner following cremation, although in at least two cases in my family, there was a preference for conventional burial on the part of the loved one which the relatives did not honor.

 

[Paidiske]

I complefelt understand where you are coming from on this, but the main horror from my perspective,... is that most newer crematoria ...suffer from problems of comingling, since the bone fragments scraped from the retort and crushed into what people call the ashes by another machine called the “cremulator” are invariably slightly intermixed with those from other cremations.

I can understand that objection, but I would argue the problem there is not with cremation per se, but with particular methods. One could make similar statements about burial; there are respectful and reverent and dignified methods of burial, and there are disrespectful, irreverent and undignified methods (for example, bodies bulldozed into mass graves).

 

[JulieB67]

That revelation shows that cremation is unacceptable to God and should be rejected by believers.

I don't think it matters. These bodies are organic and will return to dust. It's the spirit that returns to God. This is biblical.

I think this verse is more in line with how this person lived and the state of his soul while he lived vs the person with the untimely birth. I don't think it has anything to do with the physical aspect of the body at burial.

Ecclesiastes 6:3 "If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he."


We see this point continued-

Ecclesiastes 6:4 "For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness."

Ecclesiastes 6:5 "Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other."

Ecclesiastes 6:6 "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"


Solomon also wrote this -

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Many many believers have died with nothing left of them being completely burned, destroyed in accidents, etc. It's not going to matter.

 

[The Liturgist]

for example, bodies bulldozed into mass graves

Indeed, and I am highly opposed to that.

 

[joshua28]

Why do you try to throw the question back to me? You claim that not being buried to the ground is a bad thing, so I am asking you how were for example martyrs who were not buried harmed, spiritually, by not being buried.

Or people who died in the sea, in a jungle, who were eaten by animals etc.

The right question is not, first and foremost, how such people were "harmed, spiritually, by not being buried." Is God pleased with what happened to them? In every case that you mention, there was no voluntary choice not to be buried.

Christians who choose cremation for themselves or for others choose what is not pleasing to God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The right question

What's that?

 

[joshua28]

What's that?

You can frame it in various ways: Is choosing not to be buried pleasing to God? Does God care whether believers choose cremation versus burial? Does the Bible reveal that burial is what pleases God and not cremation? Etc.

 

[trophy33]

The right question is not, first and foremost, how such people were "harmed, spiritually, by not being buried." Is God pleased with what happened to them? In every case that you mention, there was no voluntary choice not to be buried.

Its my question. Is the answer "its not spiritually relevant in any way"? If so, why do you simply not say that, instead of being evasive.

Christians who choose cremation for themselves or for others choose what is not pleasing to God.

Please prove that its not pleasing to God (i.e. that its relevant to God).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Its my question. Is the answer "its not spiritually relevant in any way"? If so, why do you simply not say that, instead of being evasive.


Please prove that its not pleasing to God (i.e. that its relevant to God).

Being created in His image, showing respect in every aspect of disposition is showing respect for God. As far as I am concerned, it is God's responsibility to decompose the body He composed in His time and His way. Cremation and Aquamation do this for God, which seems to me to be stepping on His authority. Even the papain "sky burials" as practiced in Tibet, is allowing God's will to reign.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

A brief summary of Catholic teaching on this matter is:

Catholic teachings on burial include the following ²:​

​

1. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy that honours the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit.​

2. Prior to death, the relatives of the soon-to-be-deceased have an obligation to assist as much as possible in the transition from earthly life to eternal life.​

3. The deceased should receive the Rite of Committal before interment, which is a series of prayers that serve as the final goodbye and act of respect and kindness toward the deceased.​

4. Cremation was banned in the Catholic Church until 1963.​

5. The deceased should be buried in consecrated ground.​

​

The most up-to-date instruction from Rome on burial and cremation was issued in 2016 from the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the approval of Pope Francis ¹. The instruction on “the burial of the deceased and the conservation of the ashes in the case of cremation” reiterates that cremains are to be buried, meaning not to be spread or kept by family or friends. The Church recognizes there are legitimate reasons for cremation including “sanitary, economic or social” circumstances but it states that “the ashes of the faithful must be laid to rest in a sacred place, that is, in a cemetery or, in certain cases, in a church or an area, which has been set aside for this purpose, and so dedicated by the competent ecclesial authority” ¹.​

​

¹: [source](https://www.simplycatholic.com/catholic-burial-and-cremation/)​

²: [source](https://catholicreview.org/whats-allowed-and-not-in-catholic-funeral-and-burial-practices/)​

​

Source: Conversation with Bing, 12/01/2024​

(1) What’s allowed – and not – in Catholic funeral and burial practices. What’s allowed – and not – in Catholic funeral and burial practices - Catholic Review.​

(2) Catholic Burial And Cremation | Simply Catholic. Catholic Burial And Cremation | Simply Catholic.​

(3) The Catholic church has relaxed rules on cremation. Here's what has changed. The Catholic church has relaxed rules on cremation. Here's what has changed.​

(4) Guidelines for Funerals and Burials in the Catholic Church. https://www.pgdiocese.bc.ca/wp-cont...als-in-the-Catholic-Church-rev-2016.12....pdf.​

 

[joshua28]

Being created in His image, showing respect in every aspect of disposition is showing respect for God. As far as I am concerned, it is God's responsibility to decompose the body He composed in His time and His way. Cremation and Aquamation do this for God, which seems to me to be stepping on His authority.

I agree. The line of reasoning that says that the body is going to decompose anyway so it does not matter if we horrifically assault the body through cremation and accelerate the process is patently unbiblical thinking.

 

[joshua28]

Its my question. Is the answer "its not spiritually relevant in any way"? If so, why do you simply not say that, instead of being evasive.


Please prove that its not pleasing to God (i.e. that its relevant to God).

No, the answer is not, "It's not spiritually relevant in any way.' Establishing that, however, requires careful and lengthy discussion of many passages of Scripture, which I am attempting to do progressively.

Cremation is the antithesis of burial. Scripture exceedingly stresses the importance of a proper burial. That biblical content is intended by God to teach us that cremation is ungodly and unpleasing to God.

 

[joshua28]

1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.

Of all of Jeroboam’s children, only one would be buried because God judged him to be someone in whom there was found some good thing toward God. No one else of Jeroboam would be favored with the privilege of being buried.

This passage plainly reveals the mind of God that burial is what pleases Him and what He rewarded this one child of Jeroboam with because he was the only one in whom there was something good toward God. How much more so should every Christian be buried because he is the temple of the Holy Spirit and one to whom God has imputed the perfect righteousness of His perfect Son!

 

[trophy33]

Being created in His image, showing respect in every aspect of disposition is showing respect for God. As far as I am concerned, it is God's responsibility to decompose the body He composed in His time and His way. Cremation and Aquamation do this for God, which seems to me to be stepping on His authority. Even the papain "sky burials" as practiced in Tibet, is allowing God's will to reign.

Decomposition is a natural process, like fire is. God is not involved in one of these processes "more" than in another one.

Not sure how is slow rotting and being eaten by worms more respectful or nicer than clean burning, but its about the subjective preference of the family/relatives. Its irrelevant both to God and to the departed ones.

 

[joshua28]

Decomposition is a natural process, like fire is. God is not involved in one of these processes "more" than in another one.

Not sure how is slow rotting and being eaten by worms more respectful or nicer than clean burning, but its about the subjective preference of the family/relatives. Its irrelevant both to God and to the departed ones.

You say, "Its [sic] about the subjective preference of the family/relatives. Its [sic] irrelevant both to God and to the departed ones." You do not provide any Bible to support these positions. Why is that?

Neither decomposition nor burning a body is a "natural" process. God is the One who ordained that the body would return to dust after the Fall of man (Gen. 3).

 

[trophy33]

You say, "Its [sic] about the subjective preference of the family/relatives. Its [sic] irrelevant both to God and to the departed ones." You do not provide any Bible to support these positions. Why is that?

Because its not a biblical matter.

Neither decomposition nor burning a body is a "natural" process. God is the One who ordained that the body would return to dust after the Fall of man (Gen. 3).

Both decomposition and fire are natural processes. Both make the body to become "dust". Not sure what you are trying to do here.

 

[joshua28]

Because its not a biblical matter.

No, in one of my recent posts (#54), I showed from the Bible that being buried was God's reward for Jeroboam's lone son in which something good was found toward God but Jeroboam and all the rest who were of Jeroboam were judged by being denied burial. That is divine revelation that shows that whether people are buried or not matters to God.

 

[joshua28]

Both decomposition and fire are natural processes. Both make the body to become "dust". Not sure what you are trying to do here.

Are you denying that death and the subsequent decomposition of human bodies only came about because of God's judgment on man after the Fall of man (Gen. 3)? If so, we have much more fundamental differences than cremation vs. burial.

 

[RileyG]

I refuse to be cremated. Christian burial for me. Destroying the body isn't compatible with Christianity.