Is it OK to pursue a personal revival with everything I've got?

[TruthSeek3r]

• If I'm tired of armchair/philosophical/intellectual belief in Christianity,
• If I'm tired of atheists vs. apologists debates,
• If I'm tired of exegetical debates,
  
• If I'm tired of philosophical debates,
• If I'm tired of epistemological debates,
• If I want to meet the living God of the Bible in REAL LIFE,
• If I want to experience a Book of Acts type of Christianity in REAL LIFE,

would it be okay to pursue a personal revival with everything I've got?

I'm planning on spending one or two months in intense prayer, fasting, sanctification, repentance, Bible reading, praying at 3:00 AM, praying for hours, worship, and any other scripturally supported spiritual practice available. I want it to be all-in. I want to play all my cards in this big move. It's a last hope move. If this doesn't work, I don't know what else could.

Do you think it can work? What else can be done?

 

[Aussie Pete]

• If I'm tired of armchair/philosophical/intellectual belief in Christianity,
• If I'm tired of atheists vs. apologists debates,
• If I'm tired of exegetical debates,
  
• If I'm tired of philosophical debates,
• If I'm tired of epistemological debates,
• If I want to meet the living God of the Bible in REAL LIFE,
• If I want to experience a Book of Acts type of Christianity in REAL LIFE,

would it be okay to pursue a personal revival with everything I've got?

I'm planning on spending one or two months in intense prayer, fasting, sanctification, repentance, Bible reading, praying at 3:00 AM, praying for hours, worship, and any other scripturally supported spiritual practice available. I want it to be all-in. I want to play all my cards in this big move. It's a last hope move. If this doesn't work, I don't know what else could.

Do you think it can work? What else can be done?

Jeremiah 29:13 "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart."

The most influential Christian in my life spent years seeking God. He had a relationship with God that was more real than anyone I've ever met. He would be up at 3 or 4 am every morning. He had a notebook. God would give him understanding on the Bible. He wrote these things down. Later, he would go over them again until they became a part of his life.

If you mean business with God, He will reveal Himself to you. That's His promise. You may find it hard at first. I sure did. I'd sit with my notebook wondering what on earth I was doing. But it began to flow and became natural after a while. Every Christian needs to spend time with God. Otherwise we suffer spiritual malnutrition.

The greatest realisation that I had was that I was OK with God. There was nothing for me to do because Lord Jesus had already done it. I dies with Christ, so my old life has been terminated through the cross. I rose again with Christ, so I am a new creation. The old really has passed away, the new really has come. I am complete in Christ already.

I read those truth many times without understanding. I kept seeking a breakthrough. All I could see was that I was lacking something, that I was not spiritual enough, or some vague sense of being wrong. Eventually my friend got through to me that there was no problem. He'd seen this truth decades before. We are complete in Christ!

This has to be worked out in experience. We have a kind of hangover from the past, habits and memories and mental programming that needs to be undone. But we should start from knowing who we are in Christ. Then we will be sure that we can put off the things that are not of Christ. Trying to put off those things to be more like Christ is the wrong way around.

You will need to persist. You may be discouraged. Don't give up. It is worth the fight. A trainee pastor in China asked how long he should spend preparing a sermon. The reply was, "twenty years!" God gets us ready. The person is more important to God than the work he is called to. God loves you and wants the best for you.

 

[Joined2krist]

It will definitely work. His disciples were not Scholars and theologians but mostly unlearned men and redeemed sinners. He did this to make foolish the wisdom of the world. Those who seek Him earnestly, will find Him.God bless

 

[aiki]

would it be okay to pursue a personal revival with everything I've got?

Pursue a personal revival? What do you mean? The apostle James wrote that if a man draws near to God, God will draw near to Him. (James 4:8) James went on to explain what he meant by "draws near":

James 4:8-10
8 ...Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

Here's the way to "draw near to God":

- Cleanse yourself of sin. (1 John 1:9)
- Purify your heart of doublemindedness. (James 4:4; James 1:6-8; Ephesians 3:7-11; Psalm 119:2, 10)
- Humble yourself before God. (James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:6; Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1; John 12:24-25; Luke 22:42)

James did not go on in chapter 4 to describe a blow-your-doors-off encounter with God, some sensational "revival" full of dramatic, overt experiences as a consequence of "drawing near to God." He wrote of God "exalting" or "lifting up" the repentant, sin-confessing, whole-hearted seeker after God but James never described what that "exalting" was, exactly. Personally, I believe it is, essentially, the joy of seeing God clearly (Hebrews 12:14) and experiencing the work of the Spirit in us unhindered by our sin, rebellion and divided fidelity.

Too often, I've heard preachers urging their listeners to seek a single, transformative "revival" experience. Some go on at length about their "striving after God," describing the depth and length of their efforts to "encounter God in a new way." One pastor I heard of lay on the grave of his wife for three days, vowing that he would die rather than leave her grave without "a fresh empowerment from God." Another fellow went off into the bush for days "seeking God," crying out to Him as he roamed the wilderness until he "met with God." And we ought to do the same, following their example, if we're "really serious" about God.

Baloney. Did Moses "find God" while wandering about the desert, pleading and wailing for God to appear? Did Paul lay on a grave 'til God empowered him? Did any of the apostles encounter Jesus after hiding in a closet, refusing to come out, 'til God "met with them"? How about Mary, the mother of Jesus? Was she straining near to bursting to "find God," to "have a radical experience of Him" when an angel appeared to tell her she would birth the Son of God? To all of these, "No" is the answer. Not one of them was seeking a "personal revival" when God tapped them on the shoulder and moved them into supernatural service to Himself. The same was true of Abraham, and Noah, and Gideon and a host of others in Scripture.

There is no "revival" necessary if one is walking well with God day-by-day. This ought to be your goal (and mine), not some sensational "experience" of "Spirit power." The Holy Spirit, Scripture tells us, works in the Christian believer daily, convicting them of sin, teaching them spiritual truth, strengthening them, and so on (John 16:8; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; Ephesians 3:16, Philippians 2:13, etc.). When the Spirit is acting upon the believer who has "drawn near to God" after the manner James described, a "special filling," or whatever, is unnecessary.

If, though, the believer just wants a sensational moment with God rather than the more mundane but profoundly transformative work of the Spirit, if a believer wants to be stimulated, excited, wowed by God rather than to be grown and changed like the branch in the Vine the believer is, well, the normal Christian life in the Spirit that the Bible describes isn't going to be very satisfying. The problem with this is that, if such a believer has some sort of unusual experience they believe is God, they want another, and another, and soon can't be content except they are "encountering God" in some dramatic, sensational way.

But God isn't a sensational experience; He's a Person. He's not a religious entertainer, thrilling Christians with strange feelings, and powerful impressions, and miracles at every turn; He's God Almighty, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Ruler of All, before whom we should daily tremble in awe, deep humility and gratefulness.

I'm planning on spending one or two months in intense prayer, fasting, sanctification, repentance, Bible reading, praying at 3:00 AM, praying for hours, worship, and any other scripturally supported spiritual practice available. I want it to be all-in. I want to play all my cards in this big move. It's a last hope move. If this doesn't work, I don't know what else could.

Do you think it can work? What else can be done?

Why don't you do these things as the normal course of your living? Why do you think that if you do these things more intensely God will "revive" you? He won't need to, if your life is filled with prayer, Bible study, worship of Him and forsaking sin. Living this way is how you ought always to be living. You aren't doing something special for God, something that will oblige or move Him to "zing" you supernaturally, by living in the way you describe above; you are simply behaving as any serious child of God ought to behave. And in the midst of doing so, the Spirit responds by doing all the things the Bible indicates He does commonly to every faithful, humble, Christ-centered believer (see above).

 

[TruthSeek3r]

There is no "revival" necessary if one is walking well with God day-by-day. This ought to be your goal (and mine), not some sensational "experience" of "Spirit power." The Holy Spirit, Scripture tells us, works in the Christian believer daily, convicting them of sin, teaching them spiritual truth, strengthening them, and so on (John 16:8; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; Ephesians 3:16, Philippians 2:13, etc.). When the Spirit is acting upon the believer who has "drawn near to God" after the manner James described, a "special filling," or whatever, is unnecessary.

Acts 4:29-31 (ESV)

29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.​

Luke 4 (ESV)

And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.
​

Acts 13:1-3 (ESV)

Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
​

Matthew 17:19-21 (KJV):

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

​

1 Corinthians 12 (ESV):

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
​

Jeremiah 29:13 (ESV)

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
​

Acts 1:8 (ESV)

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
​

Luke 11:13 (ESV)

13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
​

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (ESV)

2 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.​

 

[aiki]

Acts 4:29-31 (ESV)

29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

And the prescription in this description? Where is it?

Luke 4 (ESV)

And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

Again, where is the prescription in this description? Are we all to spend forty days in the wilderness, as Jesus did, and be tempted by the devil? Where is that indicated in Scripture? Where do we read of other believers doing so?

Acts 13:1-3 (ESV)

Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.

Here, too, you offer a description of events as though there is something prescriptive in it. But, as I'm sure you know, description doesn't equal prescription. To think it does is to fall prey to the Is-Ought Fallacy. Scripture does recommend fasting and commands prayer but why were those in the above instance praying and fasting? We aren't told. Perhaps they were simply doing so as a common practice, as a matter of worship, as the passage suggests. There is nothing in the passage, though, that indicates that fasting and prayer were being used as a means of strong-arming God into some sensational response, as it seems you hope to do.

Matthew 17:19-21 (KJV):

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Are you hoping to cast out demons?

 

[aiki]

1 Corinthians 12 (ESV):

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

Yes, God has given to each of His children spiritual gifts by which they might edify the Church, the Body of Believers. These gifts are imparted to us in the Person of the Holy Spirit who makes a "temple" of every genuine child of God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20; Romans 8:9-10; 1 John 4:13). But these gifts aren't accessed by means of revival. They are available to the born-again person immediately upon the Spirit regenerating them spiritually; for they are located in the Spirit and are a manifestation of him, as are the "fruit of the Spirit" that Paul described in his letter to the Galatian believers (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9). All that is necessary for the full expression of these spiritual gifts is a life yielded to God in love and humility (James 4:7, 10; 1 Peter 5:6; Romans 6:13; Romans 12:1; Micah 6:8), not a strenuous attending to God with the purpose of obligating or provoking Him to "show up" in some sensational supernatural way.

Jeremiah 29:13 (ESV)

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

James echoes this in chapter 4 of his letter (see my last post to you). James, though, is writing to the New Testament believer and under the spiritual dynamics of the New Covenant wrought in and through Christ, not as Jeremiah was to the Israelite nation under the Old Covenant laws and rituals.

I've already drawn out how James instructed the Christian person to draw near to God so I won't repeat myself; his prescription was simple and direct, however, requiring none of the grand acts I hear pastors urging of their audience. The Holy Spirit is, after all, within every believer, as close as thought, ready and waiting to transform the believer as they submit to his control throughout every day, by his power being sanctified and living with a heart and mind undivided in their desire for God.

Acts 1:8 (ESV)

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

And when the Holy Spirit "baptized" the first born-again believers what happened? They went out into the street and preached the Gospel! Did they heal anyone? No. Did they feel tingles and warm fuzzies? Acts 2 says nothing of such things. Did they roll about on the floor in convulsive ecstasy? Absolutely not. Did they quiver with a sense of overwhelming, compelling spiritual power and desire to serve God? There's nothing of this sort described in the chapter. Instead, the Spirit moved them to tell the lost of their need of the Savior.

How long have you been a child of God, indwelt by His Spirit? Have you shared the Gospel with anyone? Do you desire to do so? This was what marked the spiritual birth of the first born-again people, their "speaking in tongues" merely an aid to doing so. Do we read of the events of Acts 2 repeated exactly in other accounts of Acts where people come to faith in Christ? No. Did flames of "Spirit fire" stand above the heads of all others in Acts who were "born-again"? No. Did all those who were saved in the record of Acts speak in tongues or heal someone? No. And why should we expect that the events of Acts 2 would be repeated again and again? Nothing in the chapter commands that such a thing be so; none of the remarkable events of the chapter - fire, tongues, preaching of the Gospel, large crowds of people being saved all at once - are explicitly prescribed as necessary to the moment of one's salvation.

Should one be "revived" spiritually, then, after the manner of Acts 2? Must one enact special, laborious measures to show God they are really serious about interacting with Him? That's not what James indicated; it isn't what Paul did before Christ knocked him down on the road to Damascus; it isn't what any of the Twelve did to ensure their being chosen by Christ as one of his chief disciples; it isn't what Ananias of Damascus did in order to be addressed by God in a vision. None of these men were pursuing God in any special, arduous way, with a view to producing a sensational spiritual event thereby.

Luke 11:13 (ESV)

13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

But this is a reference to salvation, to being born-again by the Spirit coming to dwell with a person (John 3:5; John 6:63; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.), not a further "special moment" of revival with God, produced by high religious fervor.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (ESV)

2 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Yes? What is your point in offering this passage? How does it serve as ground for a "revival moment" with God?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

And the prescription in this description? Where is it?

Mark 16:17-18 (ESV)

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”​

John 14:8-14 (ESV)

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.​

Acts 2:17-21 (ESV)

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’​

Are you hoping to cast out demons?

Why not?

Mark 16:17-18 (ESV)

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”​

 

[TruthSeek3r]

But this is a reference to salvation, to being born-again by the Spirit coming to dwell with a person (John 3:5; John 6:63; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13, etc.), not a further "special moment" of revival with God, produced by high religious fervor.

Luke 11:13 uses the word "children":

13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”​

This is a promise for God's children, and only saved people are God's children. In fact, Jesus was addressing his disciples in Luke 11, and his disciples were already saved at that moment, so this is NOT about salvation:

Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” (Luke 11:1)​

Yes? What is your point in offering this passage? How does it serve as ground for a "revival moment" with God?

It's not ground for a "revival moment" (that is, a single isolated event), rather I'm referring to it as ground for continuous, ongoing revival, a life continuously full of the power of the Spirit.

 

[aiki]

Mark 16:17-18 (ESV)

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Apart from this being a part of a contested passage, thought by Bible scholars to be a later accretion, it applies only to the Early Church during its first formative years, as the apostles worked by the power of the Spirit to establish the Church. In the instance of miraculous healing, Scripture recounts a rapid drop-off of such events, Trophimus and Epaphroditus both falling seriously ill without any supernatural healing being worked upon them, though they both had been in the company of an apostle. Dorcas, too, became ill and died, none of the believers around her able to affect her miraculous healing (though Peter later resurrected her). Paul's advice to Timothy regarding his stomach ailment wasn't to seek out a miracle of healing but to "take a little wine for the sake of his stomach." Outside of Acts, only Paul has much to say about tongues, establishing strict restraints over its use in Church gatherings, and then in only one of his letters. James, Jude, and John make no mention of tongues; certainly none of them urge believers to pursue speaking in them, or miraculously heal people, or handle deadly snakes. These facts ought to temper how one reads the passage from Mark 16 you offered and how much weight one gives to this disputed passage. Certainly, I don't see in it good grounds to think you should carry on in the manner it describes.

John 14:8-14 (ESV)

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

And the greater works that the apostles did? What were they? What did the apostles do in the record of Scripture that exceeded the works of Christ? I can think of only one: They led thousands to faith in Jesus. None of them created a universe, as Jesus had; none of them rose again from the dead after atoning for the sins of all humanity, as Jesus had; none of them ascended into heaven in a cloud, as Jesus did.

Acts 2:17-21 (ESV)

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

Where does the passage guarantee a special revelation or experience of God to the person who strains really hard through religious activity to show God they want one? In any case, this passage is referring particularly to the Last Times, to the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Christ. When you see "wonders in the heavens" and "signs on the earth" of blood, vapor and smoke, when the sun turns to darkness and the moon to blood, then you have grounds to think sons and daughters will prophesy, see visions and dream dreams. But, again, there is no injunction for the believer to pursue such things, by their spiritual efforts obliging God to enact the supernatural events of the passage in their lives.

Luke 11:13 uses the word "children":

13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
This is a promise for God's children, and only saved people are God's children. In fact, Jesus was addressing his disciples in Luke 11, and his disciples were already saved at that moment, so this is NOT about salvation:

Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” (Luke 11:1)

The children in view in verse 13, the only children mentioned, are children of earthly parents. "Your" children, the verse reads, not God's children; that is, the children of those to whom Jesus was speaking, not saved, born-again children of God. This is confirmed by Jesus comparing how earthly fathers give good gifts to their children to God giving the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. A person who has to ask to receive the Spirit is not yet an adopted child of God; for it is only by the Spirit indwelling a person that they are born-again into God's family and kingdom (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 John 4:13; Titus 3:5; John 3:5; John 6:63). No born-again person, no child of God, then, has to ask to receive the Spirit. Therefore, it is not to children of God Jesus is speaking in Luke 11:13.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples, yes, but they were not saved at the time. Such a thing was impossible, Jesus not yet having atoned for the sins of all mankind. The Spirit came upon the disciples, as he did various individuals in the OT (Moses, Samson, prophets, King David, etc.), but he did not remain upon them, dwelling in them constantly, as he does all whom he spiritually regenerates post-Calvary. No, the disciples would have to receive the Holy Spirit after the manner of every born-again child of God, once the Atonement was accomplished. And they did, as Acts 2 describes.

If you assert that the Twelve were born again prior to the cross, what you are asserting is that it was possible to be born-again, to be saved, without the Atonement, without Christ's sacrifice. And if such a thing were possible, it would have made the cross unnecessary. I'm sure this is not what you intend to assert.

It's not ground for a "revival moment" (that is, a single isolated event), rather I'm referring to it as ground for continuous, ongoing revival, a life continuously full of the power of the Spirit.

This is not accomplished by a mighty effort for God, but by your constant surrender to God. He lifts up only those who go low before Him. (James 4:6-7; 1 Peter 5:6) And being full of the Spirit (as opposed to merely His power), is not marked necessarily or primarily by supernatural, miraculous events or surging sensations or emotions, but by holiness, faithfulness, love, patience, humility and so on. (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9) Being filled by the Spirit does not mean a believer comes to possess more of him but that the Spirit is more fully occupying every region of the believer's life. And as he is, through that believer he moves more completely, manifesting himself more clearly, unhindered by the believer's self-will and sin.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Apart from this being a part of a contested passage, thought by Bible scholars to be a later accretion, it applies only to the Early Church during its first formative years, as the apostles worked by the power of the Spirit to establish the Church.

These facts ought to temper how one reads the passage from Mark 16 you offered and how much weight one gives to this disputed passage. Certainly, I don't see in it good grounds to think you should carry on in the manner it describes.

Perhaps the following may be of interest:

• Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today, by Jack Deere (https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X)
  
• Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts, by Craig Keener (https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-New-Testament-Accounts/dp/0801039525)
• Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World, by Craig Keener (https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Today-Supernatural-Modern-World-ebook/dp/B08MXZVXLW)
• The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural, by Lee Strobel (https://www.amazon.com/Case-Miracles-Journalist-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/0310259185)
• The Grave Robber: How Jesus Can Make Your Impossible Possible, by Mark Batterson (https://www.amazon.com/Grave-Robber-Jesus-Impossible-Possible/dp/0801015987)
• Demonic Foes: My Twenty-Five Years as a Psychiatrist Investigating Possessions, Diabolic Attacks, and the Paranormal, by Richard Gallagher (https://www.amazon.com/Demonic-Foes-Twenty-Five-Psychiatrist-Investigating/dp/0062876481/)
• They Shall Expel Demons: What You Need to Know about Demons - Your Invisible Enemies, by Derek Prince (https://www.amazon.com/They-Shall-Expel-Demons-Invisible/dp/0800792602/)

These interviews may be of interest as well:

Story Of Healings, Resurrections, and Miracles: With Dr. Keener

The Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles

Interview with an Exorcist (Fr Vincent Lampert)

In any case, this passage is referring particularly to the Last Times, to the time immediately preceding the Second Coming of Christ. When you see "wonders in the heavens" and "signs on the earth" of blood, vapor and smoke, when the sun turns to darkness and the moon to blood, then you have grounds to think sons and daughters will prophesy, see visions and dream dreams.

This is not what Peter said. For Peter, Joel's prophecy was already in operation and in process of fufillment at that very moment:

Acts 2:14-23 (ESV)

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.​

The children in view in verse 13, the only children mentioned, are children of earthly parents. "Your" children, the verse reads, not God's children; that is, the children of those to whom Jesus was speaking, not saved, born-again children of God. This is confirmed by Jesus comparing how earthly fathers give good gifts to their children to God giving the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. A person who has to ask to receive the Spirit is not yet an adopted child of God; for it is only by the Spirit indwelling a person that they are born-again into God's family and kingdom (Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 John 4:13; Titus 3:5; John 3:5; John 6:63). No born-again person, no child of God, then, has to ask to receive the Spirit. Therefore, it is not to children of God Jesus is speaking in Luke 11:13.

Verse 13 says "the heavenly Father", and from context it is obvious that Jesus is talking about God's attitude, as the heavenly Father, toward His children.

For further confirmation, let me quote the top 3 answers to the question Is Luke 11:9-13 a promise for believers or unbelievers?

_________
Answer 1:

Is Luke 11:9-13 a promise for believers or unbelievers?

Believers.

Luke 11:

11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent;

The son asks his father. Metaphorically, a believer asks the heavenly Father.

If you then, who are evil, know how to give

διδόναι Present Infinitive Active, repetitive actions

good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

If the promise is for believers, wouldn't that contradict the fact that believers, by definition, already have the Holy Spirit?

The promise is related to repetitive (daily) giving. It is not referring to the unique giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit. It refers to the repetitive filling of the Holy Spirit. It happened in Acts 2:

4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

It was a specific enablement.

It happened again in Acts 7:

55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Colossians 1:

9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,

The Spirit continually gives wisdom to believers.

Paul commanded believers in Ephesians 5:

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

This was not once and for all.

be filled
πληροῦσθε (plērousthe)
Verb - Present Imperative Middle or Passive - 2nd Person Plural

Is Luke 11:9-13 a promise for believers or unbelievers?

For believers' daily spiritual enablement and development. In fact, I pray to be filled with the Holy Spirit daily knowing that I have the indwelling Spirit living inside me since some decades ago ​

_________
Answer 2:

(As you are no doubt aware?) You are bordering on a much debated theological interpretation.

And depending on which side of that debate you ‘sit’ on will determine whether there may be an apparent contradiction in these verses. I could argue that because the Bible has no contradictions, therefore there is an inevitable answer to that debate. But I won’t.

My perspective is …. The Holy Spirit is a gift (Acts 2:38). You cannot be good enough to earn the gift of the Holy Spirit, but you do have to ask (this verse). This is speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is subsequent to the born-again experience.

But as said, this view is only one side of the debate. But nevertheless, from this side, from this angle, there is absolutely no contradiction.​

_________
Answer 3:

The question is predicated on several assumptions that must be made explicit before we can proceed.

1. Salvation is entirely the initiative of God and that man’s (positive) response is due to God’s prompting (Phil 2:13, John 6:44, Rom 2:4; repentance is also a gift Acts 5:31, 11:18, 2 Tim 2:25), but this does not preclude the possibility that a person can reject the prompting and pleading of the Holy Spirit.
2. The Gift of the Holy Spirit can be resisted by the choice of some, Acts 6:10, 7:51, Eph 4:30, Gal 5:17, 1 Thess 5:19, etc. See also Acts 7:42. Note that these instructions not to resist/quench/grieve the Holy Spirit apply equally to both believers and unbelievers.
3. It is impossible to be a Christian without the Holy Spirit as Rom 8:5-10 makes very clear
4. Paul instructs believers to have the ask for "better" gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12, such as prophecy and apostleship.
5. Jesus told us to pray for the Holy Spirit in Luke 11:13.

In view of the above, I take this to mean two things:

• The gift of the Holy Spirit is not a singular event that occurs once but is an on-going reception of the Holy Spirit as each person is better fashioned into the image of God (2 Cor 3:18)
• The needy Christian is in constant need of new and refreshing supplies of the Spirit. If we become lax and ignore the gift of the Spirit we effectively turn away.

It is for this reason that we are instructed to pray for the Holy Spirit. (An unbeliever does not and cannot do this because an unbeliever does not know about the Holy Spirit!)​

 

[TruthSeek3r]

@aiki,

Concerning Luke 11:13, see these Bible commentaries (taken from Luke 11:13 Commentaries: "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"):

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(13) How much more shall your heavenly Father . . .?—We note a change here also, the one highest gift of the “Holy Spirit” taking the place of the wider and less definite “good things” in Matthew 7:11. The variation is significant, as belonging to a later stage of our Lord’s teaching, and especially as spoken probably to some of the Seventy, who were thus taught to ask boldly for the Spirit which was to make them in very deed a company of prophets. (See Note on Luke 10:1.)

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 11:13. ὁ π. ὁ ἐξ οὐρανοῦ, this epithet is attached to πατὴρ here though not in the Lord’s Prayer.—Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον instead of Mt.’s ἀγαθὰ. The Holy Spirit is mentioned here as the summum donum, and the supreme object of desire for all true disciples. In some forms of the Lord’s Prayer (Marcion, Greg. Nys.) a petition for the gift of the Holy Spirit took the place of the first or second petition.

Benson Commentary
Luke 11:13. If ye then, being evil — If ye, who are, at least, comparatively evil, and perhaps inclined to a penurious and morose temper, yet know how to give good gifts to your children — And find your hearts disposed to relieve their returning necessities, by a variety of daily provisions; — if earthly parents, though evil, be yet so kind; if they, though weak, be yet so knowing, that they give with discretion, give what is best, in the best manner and time; much more shall your heavenly Father — Who has wrought these dispositions in you, and who infinitely excels the fathers of our flesh, as in power, so also in wisdom and goodness, be ready to bestow every necessary good, and even to give the best and most excellent gift of all, his Holy Spirit, to them that sincerely and earnestly ask him; a gift, inclusive of, or followed by, all the good things we ought to pray for; more than which, with its effects and consequences, we do not need, to make us wise, holy, happy, and useful; the Holy Spirit being the source of spiritual life to and in us here, and the earnest of eternal life hereafter; a gift which, therefore, it concerns us all earnestly, constantly, and perseveringly to pray for. Observe well, then, reader, both that it is our indispensable duty to ask this gift, and that we have all possible encouragement to believe that, if we ask aright, we shall not ask in vain. For as certainly as God’s power enables him, so certainly does his goodness incline him, and his promise bind him, to give it, and that to all those that ask as they are here directed.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

• If I'm tired of armchair/philosophical/intellectual belief in Christianity,
• If I'm tired of atheists vs. apologists debates,
• If I'm tired of exegetical debates,
  
• If I'm tired of philosophical debates,
• If I'm tired of epistemological debates,
• If I want to meet the living God of the Bible in REAL LIFE,
• If I want to experience a Book of Acts type of Christianity in REAL LIFE,

would it be okay to pursue a personal revival with everything I've got?

I'm planning on spending one or two months in intense prayer, fasting, sanctification, repentance, Bible reading, praying at 3:00 AM, praying for hours, worship, and any other scripturally supported spiritual practice available. I want it to be all-in. I want to play all my cards in this big move. It's a last hope move. If this doesn't work, I don't know what else could.

Do you think it can work? What else can be done?

In terms of fasting see Isaiah 58, what God asks of us is to be considerate of others, this is the fast God has requested. Where we fast from malice and social self defense, and give out kindness and compassion in vulnerability.

This is just an example.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Jesus was speaking to his disciples, yes, but they were not saved at the time. Such a thing was impossible, Jesus not yet having atoned for the sins of all mankind. The Spirit came upon the disciples, as he did various individuals in the OT (Moses, Samson, prophets, King David, etc.), but he did not remain upon them, dwelling in them constantly, as he does all whom he spiritually regenerates post-Calvary. No, the disciples would have to receive the Holy Spirit after the manner of every born-again child of God, once the Atonement was accomplished. And they did, as Acts 2 describes.

If you assert that the Twelve were born again prior to the cross, what you are asserting is that it was possible to be born-again, to be saved, without the Atonement, without Christ's sacrifice. And if such a thing were possible, it would have made the cross unnecessary. I'm sure this is not what you intend to assert.

Then how do you explain the following passages?

Luke 7:44-50 (ESV)

44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
​

Luke 10:17-20 (ESV)

17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
​

Jesus himself affirming, in the present tense, that people were already saved.

This article may be of interest as well: How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins? | GotQuestions.org

 

[aiki]

Perhaps the following may be of interest:

• Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today, by Jack Deere (https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X)
  
• Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts, by Craig Keener (https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-New-Testament-Accounts/dp/0801039525)
• Miracles Today: The Supernatural Work of God in the Modern World, by Craig Keener (https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Today-Supernatural-Modern-World-ebook/dp/B08MXZVXLW)
• The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural, by Lee Strobel (https://www.amazon.com/Case-Miracles-Journalist-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/0310259185)
• The Grave Robber: How Jesus Can Make Your Impossible Possible, by Mark Batterson (https://www.amazon.com/Grave-Robber-Jesus-Impossible-Possible/dp/0801015987)
• Demonic Foes: My Twenty-Five Years as a Psychiatrist Investigating Possessions, Diabolic Attacks, and the Paranormal, by Richard Gallagher (https://www.amazon.com/Demonic-Foes-Twenty-Five-Psychiatrist-Investigating/dp/0062876481/)
• They Shall Expel Demons: What You Need to Know about Demons - Your Invisible Enemies, by Derek Prince (https://www.amazon.com/They-Shall-Expel-Demons-Invisible/dp/0800792602/)

These interviews may be of interest as well:

Story Of Healings, Resurrections, and Miracles: With Dr. Keener


The Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles


Interview with an Exorcist (Fr Vincent Lampert)

I've never said that God doesn't move miraculously today. But approaching God with the idea that He has obliged Himself to act miraculously in and through you is not at all biblical. Generally, as is indicated in the New Testament record, miracles remain a very unusual thing, rare, not the norm. If they weren't, if miracles were a common thing, we wouldn't call them miracles, would we?

This is not what Peter said. For Peter, Joel's prophecy was already in operation and in process of fufillment at that very moment:

Acts 2:14-23 (ESV)

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Oh? So, where was the prophet Joel's "blood, fire, and vapor of smoke"? Where was the sun gone dark and moon turned to blood? Where were the "wonders in the heavens"? These are as much a part of Joel's prophecy as the "dreaming dreams," and "visions," and "prophesying." Really, in context, the most applicable part of Joel's prophecy to what was happening in Acts 2 was the part stating that "everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," (vs. 21) which Peter goes on to emphasize pretty much exclusively to verse 36.

Acts 2:22-36
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."

It seems quite obvious from Peter's own words that his primary purpose in quoting Joel was to declare that the day when all who "call upon the name of the Lord might be saved" had arrived. He wasn't aiming to teach that dreams, visions, prophesying, a darkened sun and bloody moon, and wonders in the heavens were happening, and would continue to happen, as a common feature of the Church Age.

Verse 13 says "the heavenly Father", and from context it is obvious that Jesus is talking about God's attitude, as the heavenly Father, toward His children.

Luke 11:5-13
5 Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6 for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7 and from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.'
8 "I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

This passage sets up a contrast between God's generosity and the generosity of human beings. We might give to a neighbor, if we're strongly importuned, and generally, we give generously to our own loved ones (ie. children), but God, in contrast, much more gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask for him. To his disciples, Jesus was saying that God the Father will give the Holy Spirit freely and super-generously to any who ask for him. Why was he saying this to his disciples? If, as you contend, they were already born-again by the Spirit and so adopted children of God, they had no need to know what Jesus was telling them. Being indwelt by the Spirit, they would know firsthand what Jesus was saying.

Literally, though, verse 13 reads, not "your heavenly Father" but "the Father in heaven." There is no Greek equivalent for "your" in the verse. Instead the definite article ὁ ("ho") appears in the Greek, properly rendered "the" in English, just before "Father" (πατὴρ). The ESV renders verse 13 in this way and both the KJV and NASB acknowledge that "your" has no Greek equivalent in the verse. This is just what I would expect in light of the fact that Christ had not yet died for the sins of mankind and salvation was not yet available to the disciples at the time Jesus said what he did in verse 13.

For further confirmation, let me quote the top 3 answers to the question Is Luke 11:9-13 a promise for believers or unbelievers?

See above.

If the promise is for believers, wouldn't that contradict the fact that believers, by definition, already have the Holy Spirit?

The promise is related to repetitive (daily) giving. It is not referring to the unique giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit. It refers to the repetitive filling of the Holy Spirit. It happened in Acts 2:

4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

It was a specific enablement.

There is no such thing as a "specific enablement." Where do you read this phrase in Scripture? One is baptized into the Spirit once at conversion (Titus 3:5) and possesses all that he is in the fullest degree at that moment and forever after. How far his control extends in the life of the believer is another thing, however. To the degree the Spirit is in control, ruling the believer's desires, thoughts and conduct, to that same degree the Spirit expands in the life of the believer, filling him. A believer does not get more and then less of the Spirit, as though the Spirit moves in the believer like the ocean tide, coming and going, or like energy in battery that wanes with use.

In Acts 2, the disciples were baptized (born-again) and filled with the Spirit at the same time. In fact, verse 4 doesn't even say they were baptized, only filled as a "rushing mighty wind" filled the room the disciples were in and "tongues of fire" appeared over their heads.

It happened again in Acts 7:

55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Acts 7:55-56 (NASB)
55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

Verse 55 does not read: "But being filled of the Holy Spirit he was able to gaze..." but, rather, "being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed..." As the verse indicates, Stephen did not suddenly obtain a new, special measure - or enablement - of the Spirit but was already full of the Holy Spirit and thus able to gaze into heaven as he did.

Colossians 1:

9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,

The Spirit continually gives wisdom to believers.

But knowledge is a thing always obtained incrementally, not a Person, as the Holy Spirit is, dwelling in us as a Person, whole and entire. Gaining greater knowledge of God and His truth is not to gain a greater measure or degree of the Spirit.

Paul commanded believers in Ephesians 5:

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

This was not once and for all.

be filled
πληροῦσθε (plērousthe)
Verb - Present Imperative Middle or Passive - 2nd Person Plural

Filling doesn't have to do with the Spirit's presence within a believer but with his control over their life. The Spirit does not crowd into regions of a believer's life uninvited, wresting control of the believer, forcing them under his power. Only when the believer submits the "rooms" of the "house" of his life to the Spirit's cleansing and control, does the Spirit expand in them, filling the believer more and more as he does. Paul was not, then, urging the Ephesian believers in chapter 5 to obtain more of the Spirit, but to give him control of greater and greater portions of their life - all of it, ultimately.

For believers' daily spiritual enablement and development. In fact, I pray to be filled with the Holy Spirit daily knowing that I have the indwelling Spirit living inside me since some decades ago

But he does not fill rebels, only those living constantly in submission to him. Only so long as you are a "living sacrifice" to God throughout each day (Romans 12:1) can you expect the Spirit to transform you, enabling you to live according to God's will and way (Romans 6:19).

This is speaking of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is subsequent to the born-again experience.

No it's not. There is no "born-again experience" without the baptism of the Spirit. A believer will be filled - repeatedly, depending upon their walk with God - subsequent to being baptized in the Spirit but the baptism of the Spirit is a single, non-repeatable event.

Will add to my response tomorrow.

 

[aiki]

Then how do you explain the following passages?

Luke 7:44-50 (ESV)

44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48 And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” 49 Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?” 50 And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Though it is doubtful the weeping woman at Jesus' feet understood that he was the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World," she did seem to recognize that he was the Messiah, and as God's representative he was worthy of love and honor and capable of speaking for God in regards to her sin and desire for cleansing from it. Was she seeking forgiveness from Christ, though? The story doesn't say this explicitly. Did the weeping woman understand Christ would die for her sins and through him a New Covenant would be established between God and His children? Again, the story doesn't say this. Clearly, though, she knew he was very special, divine, even, in some way. What did Jesus mean, then, when he said "Your faith has saved you"? At most, he was speaking retroactively, his atoning work on the cross applied to her and all "saints" who lived prior to Christ once it had been accomplished.

If we say anything else, if we assert that the woman at the moment Jesus forgave her was a born-again, Spirit-indwelt, adopted child of God, then we are left to wonder why the cross was necessary. If salvation could be obtained apart from the cross, why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn't we all be saved like the weeping woman, without Jesus dying for our sins?

Luke 10:17-20 (ESV)

17 The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” 18 And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. 20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus himself affirming, in the present tense, that people were already saved.

Again, at most, we can say that to these people the saving work of the Atonement of Christ was applied retroactively, promised to them by Christ and consequently so much a foregone conclusion that their names were already "written in heaven." But were they actually spiritually-regenerated and constantly indwelt by the Spirit when Christ said what he did in Luke 10:20? I don't think so since such things are the by-product of Christ's salvific labors on the cross of Calvary. Until he had died for the sins of us all, what Paul described in Titus 3:5 was not possible. If we contend otherwise, we make Christ's work on the cross unnecessary.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

@aiki, our exchange inspired me to post this thread: Should born-again believers ask/pray for the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:9-13)?